Yet another "I'm not a Trekkie, but ..." E-mail

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2003-12-15 12:52am

nightmare wrote: I first thought the same as you. I would like better pictures before I agree though, they seem to be located at the bottom of the turrets. But even if they are, it wouldn't be the first time we saw barrels with extra protrusions on the end, IRL or SW alike. You may also notice that similar turrets are located for example in this picture. Clearly without pancakes.

Those "turrets" though had the flat projections extending from the ends and adhered to the flat section of the ship. I couldn't see in any possible way how they could be turrets.

Moreover, the image you provided is rather blurry, so I see no noticably cylindridcal "turrets".

Connor MacLeod wrote: I agree. However, if you check what I wrote, most of the side barrels aren't situated in turrets. They're fixed on a up-down axis. Don't tell me those aren't barrels. I've done my share of modelling, and they look exactly like BB gun barrels should.

The turrets on the ship were not cylindridcal. They were rectangular.

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2003-12-15 01:00am

Regarding hte ISD-1 triple turrets:

http://www.theforce.net/swtc/isd.html#weaponry-axial

"
Axial turrets:
Further medium guns were seen on the dorsal surfaces of the ISD-I design. Three triple-gun turrets are mounted on the ridge of the ship, just forward of the lowest, forwardmost terrace of the dorsal superstructure. The guns appear to be about ten metres long, but may be slightly longer than the barrels of the trench quad guns. They are given the label "axial defence turret" in STAR WARS Incredible Cross-Sections. "

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2003-12-15 01:18am

here

This one is clear enough to note the discs and their attachments to the arms. However you really have to look at all these in some sort of program that allows magnification to notice that. And yes, I am 100% certain about it, unless someone thinks I am lying or am incapable of recognizing when something is attached to something else.

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2003-12-15 01:24am

However, we know it is not unprecidented for (turbo)laser weapons to have large blobs at the ends of barrels. The Falcon's quadlasers have them, X-wings have them, AT-AT blasters have them, etc.

Yes, I'm aware that those are all fairly small weapons. Still, I think there are enough examples to not discount the ISD structures out of hand.

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2003-12-15 01:26am

Disregard that last. I'm a moron.

I don't suppose you have any 3d modelling abilities, so you could show us how that attachment is done? I don't see how those projections could possibly be attached to anything. So, if you could possibly model the thing and then show us another view, that would kick ass.

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2003-12-15 01:30am

Howedar wrote:However, we know it is not unprecidented for (turbo)laser weapons to have large blobs at the ends of barrels. The Falcon's quadlasers have them, X-wings have them, AT-AT blasters have them, etc.

Nothing like that, remotely. The Falcon's are rectangular, slightly rounded towards one end, and notched on the other. They aren't flat, round disks attached edge-on. Nor with the X-wing (although I think you noticed that you were referring to the flashback suppressors.) The AT-AT's aren't flat.

Yes, I'm aware that those are all fairly small weapons. Still, I think there are enough examples to not discount the ISD structures out of hand.

Insofar as I am aware, I am the only one in this discussion who can claim to have seen this model up close. Again, I am asking if someone is questioning my claim to have seen the model up close, or questioning my ability to distinguish such things like that.

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2003-12-15 01:37am

Another example

here

I also noted that at least one prior exasmple. 005, shows the discs clearly if you look up close (hence why magnification is important here.) I can also see them in 061.

Now, the *only* example of a turret that these images show are here. This I also am 100% certain is a turret based on observation of the model (in fact, I'm credited with pointing this out to Curtis on his site on the Avenger model)

turret1

turret2

turret3

turret4

there is one more such turret (a twin one of similar size and dimensions) in the nose of the ISD's trench, but thats all. There are alot of protrusions that look like them, but nothing was overtly a "turret" except those couple I noted and the octets.

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2003-12-15 01:39am

Howedar wrote:Disregard that last. I'm a moron.

I don't suppose you have any 3d modelling abilities, so you could show us how that attachment is done? I don't see how those projections could possibly be attached to anything. So, if you could possibly model the thing and then show us another view, that would kick ass.

No, and if you don't take my word on it on my integrity (which to my knowledge should be fairly decent), why would modeling do any better? For all you know I could deliberately alter things to look that way.

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2003-12-15 01:53am

Jesus Christ, lay off the persecution complex. If you want to be a jackass about it, fine.

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2003-12-15 01:56am

Howedar wrote:Jesus Christ, lay off the persecution complex. If you want to be a jackass about it, fine.

How is it a complex exactly when you basically are suggesting I either don't know what I am talking about when I insist I do, or that I am lying (if they are turrets, I have to be one or the other.)

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2003-12-15 02:04am

Well fucking excuse me, all you do is say "Well I saw it and that's how it is", yet you refuse to explain how they're attached, make even the simplest diagram, provide pictures showing the attachment, or anything else.

Just how do you expect us to take it?

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2003-12-15 02:05am

Yeah, you're right, Connor. Sorry about that, everyone.

Huh. Wonder what those things are used for, then. They almost seem like they're designed to power aircraft-style flaps, but that doesn't make much sense, given their placement.

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2003-12-15 02:09am

Master of Ossus wrote:Yeah, you're right, Connor. Sorry about that, everyone.

Heh. Sorry I got vehement. I thought the conversation had been ended.

Huh. Wonder what those things are used for, then. They almost seem like they're designed to power aircraft-style flaps, but that doesn't make much sense, given their placement.

Best guess? Helping to redirect the magnetic fields - maybe its some sort of "Brute force" deflector or a redundant one (they look kinda hydraulic to me, or mechanical.) Just my guess though

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2003-12-15 02:13am

Howedar wrote:Well fucking excuse me, all you do is say "Well I saw it and that's how it is", yet you refuse to explain how they're attached, make even the simplest diagram, provide pictures showing the attachment, or anything else.

I explained how they're attached. The flat portions are anchored to what look to be those flaps. THe discs are attached edge-on to those "Barrels", wich in turn lead into the knobby turret-like projections.

Just how do you expect us to take it?

How exactly does drawing a diagram or giving an explanation change the basic fact that it still amounts to my word about what I saw, absent the images I dug through to post? It either amounts to me being mistaken about what I saw or deliberately lying, doesnt it?

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2003-12-15 10:18pm

I was not in the best of moods last night. Finals and such. I apologize.

So the discs are attached on edge to the long box that runs perpendicular to the flap?

nightmare · Post by **nightmare** » 2003-12-16 08:48pm

Connor MacLeod wrote:The flat portions are anchored to what look to be those flaps. THe discs are attached edge-on to those "Barrels", wich in turn lead into the knobby turret-like projections.

Aha, that finally explains it. I noticed the "flap" possible attachment but I found it impossible since the last of the "flap turrets" seemed to be connected to the frame itself and not a flap. In any case, I was going to take your word for it since you have seen it, and I haven't.

Getting an explanation was a bonus (except that I don't get why there's bracings behind the lifting turrets). And yes, I can see the flat projections in pic 005. I wonder though, is there similar protrusions on the ventral side? I haven't seen any yet. Oh, and I've never questioned the existance of a rectangular turret in the trench hatch; I'm just not convinced that all weapons systems on the ISD look like WW2 BB turrets. I agree that those are the only ones we can be certain of though. Case closed as far as I'm concerned.

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2003-12-16 09:07pm

The 2x5.5" turret constructs are duplicated on the ventral surface.

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2003-12-16 11:36pm

Howedar wrote:The 2x5.5" turret constructs are duplicated on the ventral surface.

On the Avenger model? Do you have images (I don't recall seeing those either, but I can't be as certain about the ventral side as I am about the dorsal.)

It should be noted that the greater liklihood is that alot of ISD guns are not externally mounted on turretS (at least in the movies) - or maybe that they retract (although why this is I'd be hard pressed to explain - there isn't really a reason too.) We saw "internal" guns on the DS in ANH, after all. And knowing that Lasers and turbolasers have the capability to fire off-axis as well as sheer numbers can compensate for limited movement arcs of the guns.

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2003-12-16 11:41pm

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2003-12-16 11:42pm

Oops, too wide. Could a mod please deinline that?

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2003-12-17 01:01am

Howedar wrote:ISD

Can't be sure yet, but I think they're just like on the dorsal side - they probably control those flaps. I am looking for some fairly good underside images to look first, though. I would point out though that if they have movable flaps on the dorsal side attached like that, its not unreasonable to be like that on the bottom as well.

This also suggests that it might be so, given how the top and bottom sections are arranged inside:

here[/url]

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2003-12-17 01:13am

Erm Conner, they are visible on the image I just posted. I've seen them more clearly elsewhere though, I'll see if I can find the image.

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2003-12-17 01:14am

Well I guess that didn't take too long after all.
Here

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2003-12-17 01:25am

Yeah I just foun that too, but they look alot like the ones on the topside ones we just got done discussing though. Both on the exterior side of the "flaps" and ont he interior (the depression housing the engines.)

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2003-12-17 01:54am

Um, wasn't that what I was saying?