Borg Drones vs Jawas

[Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman]

For the record, let's do the following:

Remove said sphere from scenario. Done.

So you want the drones to retreat to the sphere, take off, and bombard the Jawas from orbit? You want to admit that the drones **SUCK** in ground combat? Oh, wait, You already CONCEDED that point, did you? In fact, I already accepted your concession.

Should I say that again? Alright, then, concession accepted.

Remove potential Borg personal energy weapons. Done.

Which never exists, except of renegade drones under Lore's leadership, and Seven of Nine, which had exhibited traits unique to other drones.

If common drones have energy weapons like you're imagining in your masturbation fantasy, then they will *DEFINITELY* use it to protect the dish in First Contact, instead of engaging theirself in melee combat so Worf can chop their limbs off.

Remove potential adapting Borg personal shielding. Done.

Personal shielding which optimization can be breached by sufficient amoung of energy. Say it with me Robbie; "concentrated fire".

So what we're left with is shieldless, weaponless Borg. Yet they still have a enormous numerical advantage which I've made clear a number of times given the potential and canonly known crew capacity of said Borg sphere. Unless the Jawa "group" mentioned in the OP is numbering in the hundreds or thousands, the Borg could simply swarm over them and win.

Any questions?

Yeah, I have one. Even though I am completely unarmed, how could 11,000 SLOW-MOVING zombies swarm over and assimilate me? Do you think I'll be simply sitting there, read some papers, and waiting for them to reach me?

[Darth Wong]

This is the dumbest fucking thread I've seen in a long time. Robert's arguments look like this:

1. "The Borg sphere in First Contact had 11,000 Borg drones on board, based on the assumption that the ship is volumetrically filled with drones so that its population density ends up being 20 times greater than that of a typical Borg cube. I guess they only transported a dozen of 'em over to the E-E because they felt like sacrificing the other 10,988 for kicks."
2. "The Borg can use orbital bombardment and transporters, because they have their sphere according to the OP, and I assume that it is fully functional. Never mind the fact that it obviously crash-landed in the desert, since Borg spheres are not known to be capable of landing, and the OP did specify that it was sitting in the desert."
3. "The Borg have deadly personal firearms. Unfortunately, not only are these weapons not found on most drones, but they were DEFINITELY not seen on the particular drones in STFC, which happen to be the droids we're talking about. *wave hands and try to dismiss the criticism*"
4. "Borg drones can adapt to any kind of weapon, because they can adapt not just with frequency, but also with orientation. Of course, a Roman legionnaire had the ability to adapt his shield orientation as well, so this is hardly evidence of a remarkable ability, but I hope no one will notice that."

I don't know why this thread is still going on. The biggest joke has to be the assumption of 11,000 drones, even though only about a dozen or so were actually observed in STFC.

Robert, you're trying very hard, but the drones are severely outnumbered, they aren't carrying any firearms, their sphere crash-landed in the desert, and they're potentially facing an entire species on their own homeworld. While it seems initially funny to think of Jawas defeating anybody, the original scenario was just too heavily weighted in favour of the home team.

[Connor MacLeod]

Jeez, and I thought the OP said the Jawas were going to try and capture these Borg rather than using their "armored" vehicles and slugthrowers to kill them?

HEre we see the dishonest pussy, aka Robert Walper, changing tactics yet again and sticking to the literal letter of the OP, even though it has been pointed out he himself has ignored the OP on at least one occasion already.

Please submit the post or evidence I ignored the OP at some point.

How about where you started screaming about how the Borg would "bombard" the Jawas with their ship, for one? I already pointed out how you ignored the OP before, asshole. Not that I expect any ray of logic or hope to penetrate that dense mesh of organic matter that passes for your skull.

[Slartibartfast]

Borg Collective: Like, the orientation is all wrong. We must adapt...

[Connor MacLeod]

Of course I did. You're just too fucking lazy to read the thread, or ignoring my posts until you find one you think you can nitpick. You just jump in here and there to nitpick little shit that has been addressed already, like this example.

Yes, I admit I missed it and you did in fact post it on page three. Thus I was wrong about you not having posted it.

For your convenience, I'll restate the canon source. In STVOY "Unimatrix Zero", the Borg Queen has a visual of a Borg sphere. Quote: "Sphere 878. Crew complement: 11,000 drones."

I then further submitted calculations that would justify a Borg sphere of 600 meters in diameter being able to easily accomodate over 94,000 drones utlizing only 1% of it's total volume.

Now, having openly admitted my error (you might take a hint from that, shitbag.) I can freely point out that your logic is bullshit. You yourself suggest its *possible* for it to be a larger sphere, and the "refernece" you cited was not specific as to the *kind* of sphere (Gasp! you confused interpretation of evidene with evidence! what a shocker! ) While you correctly indicate that there *is* no proof that the 11,000 figure applied to larger spheres, it is *equally* true that there is no evidence that htis is the crew of the scout sphere. So you are still flat out wrong in citing that as evidence for the crew complement of the Scout Sphere.

As to using your "calculations" for volume as evidence - I can mathematiclaly demonstrate a larger sphere would also be able to accomodate 11,000 crew, and that it would also be a drastically conservative estimate, so your inference means nothing. Unless you can account for the internal volume occupied by equipment and machinery (weapons, engines, etc.) You cannot pretend this supports your position, even though its obvious you will plug your ears with your rectum and continue to spout the same meaningless drivel.

Given STFC, it does not seem likely that the sphere attacking earth had thousands of Borg onboared, desptie your idiotic masturbation fantasies to the contrary. In fact, Mr Sean Robertson was kind enough to lend me his viewpoint: He pointed out that in the Voyager episode "Survival Instinct", there were 4 survivors from the crash of a 600-meter sphere, yet no evidence remotely indicating there were massive casualties on the order of thousands. Moreover, he also indicated that in "Unimatrix Zero Pt 2" another scout sphere was taken over by a handful of Borg freed from the influence of the Collective - if they had thousands on board, how the hell would a force a fraction of that size have a chance??) He also cites First Contact as evidence for a very small crew complement on a 600-meter sphere.

He also suggested that "Collective" established the Borg cube crew complement at around 5,000. By doing volumetric comparison of the 600 meter sphere to this (the 3 km cubes, I believe), he estimates a sphere crew complement of ~20. Admittedly he isn't 100% certain so it might be wrong, and he does state its a lower limit, but its also literally orders of magnitude smaller than the "many thousands" you claim.

It's dumb shits like you that make debating this topic next to impossible. You either ignore evidence which I've previously posted, or you make me repeat myself...over...and over...and over...again. It's like talking to a wall(no offense to walls, which frankly strike me smarter than you).

That's funny and ironic coming from the Borg wankboy. Your obsession with them apparently has lead yhou to adopt the same mindlessly repetitive, zombie-like tactics they employ against others in your debates.

And then you sum up your opinion with "Well, I don't accept that evidence as admissible!"

There you go again confusing interpretation of evidence with the actual evidence. I disagreed with your shaky, speculative interpretations of evidence, not the evidence itself. And lo and behold, I am not alone in this. I guess everyone is a "Rabid Warsie" in your mind now, right?

Grow a fucking brain and a pair of testicles, you spineless pussy, and concede. Your paper-tiger argument has been demolished utterly, and all you do is cling to the shredded remains and keep screaming "Its not true!"
How fucking pathetic.

[Kuja]

Unless the Jawa "group" mentioned in the OP is numbering in the hundreds or thousands, the Borg could simply swarm over them and win.

Any questions?

Yeah. If I'm standing at one end of a football field with a rifle, and you and fifteen friends are standing at the other end, and all of you slowly walk towards me, are you going to be able to touch me before I gun you all down?

Remember, you don't move any quicker than a slow walk and I can shoot you in the knees or arms any time I want to ensure your debilitation.


This is quite similar to what the drones are going to have to do.

Robbie? Are you going to answer me or not?

[Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman]

Perhaps Robbie is too busy watching First Contact, desperately trying to find the scene showing 11,000 drones swarming out of the Sphere, running around like NYSE stockbrokers, and suddenly have ranged weapons out of their asses

Hey, maybe now common drones can fart distruptor beams!

[Kuja]

Hey, maybe now common drones can fart distruptor beams!

Of course, can't you just see it?


*a load of drones slowly walking towards a group of Starfleet guys with rifles*

FEDDIE: Quick! Set phasers to 'broccolli'!

*a volley of broccolli is fired into the leading drone's mouth. Said drone farts and annihilates the entire group*

[Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman]

Hey, maybe now common drones can fart distruptor beams!

Of course, can't you just see it?


*a load of drones slowly walking towards a group of Starfleet guys with rifles*

FEDDIE: Quick! Set phasers to 'broccolli'!

*a volley of broccolli is fired into the leading drone's mouth. Said drone farts and annihilates the entire group*

"We are the Borg. Resistance is futile. You will be farted."

[Robert Walper]

This is the dumbest fucking thread I've seen in a long time.

*looks at feet* While I agree with the sentiment, I suspect the reasons are significantly different.

Robert's arguments look like this:

1. "The Borg sphere in First Contact had 11,000 Borg drones on board,

Not necessarily. I was arguing that said sphere could easily accomodate 11,000 drones, and the calculation submitted by myself suggests the 600 meter diameter sphere could in fact hold over 94 thousand Borg drones quite easily, utlizing only 1% of it's total volume. I worked from this figure(11,000), since I saw no reason to assume the vast majority of Borg crew were killed, since said sphere is presumeably intact, and we have a canon source that states a sphere's crew complement at 11,000 drones.

based on the assumption that the ship is volumetrically filled with drones so that its population density ends up being 20 times greater than that of a typical Borg cube.

What!? The Borg cube in STVOY "Dark Frontier" had a crew complement of over 129 thousand Borg drones. It later picked up up an additional 50 thousand Borg, putting it's crew complement up to 179 thousand. The sphere complement I mentioned in only a small fraction of this size. A Borg cube, also utilizing only 1% of it's volume, has enough room for millions of Borg drones. This makes perfect sense since a single cube is considered a threat to a planetary population.

I guess they only transported a dozen of 'em over to the E-E because they felt like sacrificing the other 10,988 for kicks."

Seven of Nine is STVOY "Scorpion" threatened Janeway by implying a Borg cube could beam over 500 drones to capture Voyager(a threat quickly retracted however). Why are we assuming said Borg sphere could transport hundreds of drones over to the E-E when it only had a matter of seconds to do so before it was destroyed by E-E quantum torpedoes? I'm not assuming this Borg sphere has the ability to transport vast numbers of crew instantly, or even within the short timeframe they were given.

[*]"The Borg can use orbital bombardment and transporters, because they have their sphere according to the OP, and I assume that it is fully functional.

Yes, I did assume it was fully functional. I myself mentioned near the beginning of this thread the questionable nature of a Borg sphere "landing" on Tatooine. I took the meaning as the Borg sphere making a controlled descent of some type, since the OP in no way suggested the sphere was attacked, damaged or forced to land. I just considered this ignorance on the part of the author, but I decided to work with the scenario anyhow.

For example, creating a scenario where it's stated Voyager "lands" on the surface of a planet does not immediately imply it crashed or is unuseable. I've seen no evidence to suggest a sphere could perform a similar feat, but as I said I considered this ignorance on part of the author and decided to go with my interpretation of it.

Never mind the fact that it obviously crash-landed in the desert,

If the OP had said crash landed, I would not have brought the sphere's capabilties into the scenario. But it simply said landed, with no suggestions or implications it was forced to land or damaged during landing. Even a damaged sphere could concievably have functioning transporters. If we're assuming the sphere did indeed crash, the crash apparently didn't kill the crew complement. I submit this is further dwelling into the vague nature of the thread OP.

since Borg spheres are not known to be capable of landing, and the OP did specify that it was sitting in the desert."

As I've stated, I assumed this to be ignorance on the author's part. I did say the ability of the sphere to land on a planet was highly questionable near the beginning of this thread.

[*]"The Borg have deadly personal firearms. Unfortunately, not only are these weapons not found on most drones, but they were DEFINITELY not seen on the particular drones in STFC, which happen to be the droids we're talking about. *wave hands and try to dismiss the criticism*"

For the time being, I'll drop the "Borg have firearms" arguement.

[*]"Borg drones can adapt to any kind of weapon, because they can adapt not just with frequency, but also with orientation.

Mike, at no point did I say Borg adaptation was likely, highly probable or anything along those lines. I merely stated that it was a question kinda up in the air, but if it happened, it would make the Jawas goal of capturing them with their ion guns quite difficult. I recall stating "may or may not adapt" specifically.

Of course, a Roman legionnaire had the ability to adapt his shield orientation as well, so this is hardly evidence of a remarkable ability, but I hope no one will notice that."[/list]

I was merely disputing Borg adaptation being limited solely to altering frequencies and modulations of their shields. Nothing more.

I don't know why this thread is still going on.

Quote: "Persistence can be a good thing, but not for someone who continues to push on a door marked pull."

Whether your quote is once again going to apply to me, I have yet to determine. I sincerely hope not...

The biggest joke has to be the assumption of 11,000 drones, even though only about a dozen or so were actually observed in STFC.

A Borg sphere has been canonly shown to be able to accomodate 11,000 drones(a small fraction compared to a cube). My submitted calculation suggests that that number of drones can easily fit into said sphere in manner drones are repeatedly seen to occupy their vessels(in alcoves). Borg don't have or use washrooms, they don't have entertainment areas, they don't have rooms...they all just have alcoves, with them occasionally going around fixing or doing whatever it is Borg drones do. Even then, we still see vast numbers of them simply standing in their alcoves. I assumed that since the sphere was not destroyed, and it landed(which I assumed to be in a controlled manner despite myself questioning the capability), it's entire crew complement would be available. I did not assert with finality what the crew capacity is, but merely submitted(by evidence and calculation) what the potential crew capacity could be. I don't see it as a particularily unreasonable assumption the Borg sphere in question may have been loaded with Borg drones in preparation for assimilation of Earth during the 24th century.

Robert, you're trying very hard, but the drones are severely outnumbered,

Against the planetary population of Jawas, I in no way dispute this. But the OP clearly stated the Borg encountered a "group" of Jawas. I took this to mean a Jawa sandcrawler or wandering group in the desert. My impression is even a sandcrawler has only maybe a few dozen manning the entire vehicle, with the vast majority of the vehicle's volume given over to storage of droids, parts, perhaps workshops, etc.

they aren't carrying any firearms,

For the moment, I'll continue to concede that point.

their sphere crash-landed in the desert,

I took the OP term "land" as a landing of a controlled aspect, not a crash landing. After all, why is the sphere crashing or to be considered damaged or useless in the first place? The E-E isn't here to shoot it down.

I suppose this was a matter of interpretation. Some considered the sphere completely beyond use, I consisdered the landing aspect questionable, but went along with my interpretation of what "land" meant. Particularily since no suggestion or evidence implied the sphere was crashing, damaged or forced to land.

and they're potentially facing an entire species on their own homeworld.

Against the entire Jawa species is another arguement entirely IMO. The OP said the Borg encountered a group of Jawas, so I worked from that scenario. I don't believe I suggested the Borg were going to have the capability to take the entire planet, particularily given other potantial hostiles, like Sandpeople, Imperials, Hutts and their guards, etc, etc.

While it seems initially funny to think of Jawas defeating anybody, the original scenario was just too heavily weighted in favour of the home team.

As I mentioned earlier in this thread, the OP is somewhat subject to interpretation. To be frank, if the author wanted the sphere to be a non-factor, he should have specified crashed, or crash landed, or even forced to land. IMO, the term "land" when referring to vehicles typically means in a controlled, safe manner. I gave evidence in the form of quotes, episode names and calculations to determine potential crew capacity of the sphere. Even the line "and then they(Borg) encounter a group of Jawas" doesn't necessarily imply the entire crew complement of the sphere is marching through the desert. They could have simply deployed scouts. They have done that before.

[Robert Walper]

Unless the Jawa "group" mentioned in the OP is numbering in the hundreds or thousands, the Borg could simply swarm over them and win.

Any questions?

Yeah. If I'm standing at one end of a football field with a rifle, and you and fifteen friends are standing at the other end, and all of you slowly walk towards me, are you going to be able to touch me before I gun you all down?

Remember, you don't move any quicker than a slow walk and I can shoot you in the knees or arms any time I want to ensure your debilitation.


This is quite similar to what the drones are going to have to do.

Robbie? Are you going to answer me or not?

Since Darth Wong has made his presence apparent on this thread, I'm going to focus solely on his posts and arguements(assuming he has the time to continue the discussion).

I presume that everyone here can readily testify that Michael Wong is by far one of the best debaters on this forum. Therefore, if I concede to his viewpoint, then I've virtually conceded to all concerned, and the case can be considered closed.

PS: to any concerned, I actually invited Mike via PM to participate in this thread, whether in favor or against my arguements. Whether he's here as a result of that offer is not known to me. It's my belief that his analytical capabilities will bring a quick resolution to this thread, one way or the other.

[Darth Wong]

After looking at your response, I can see that your biggest point is the number of drones on board the sphere. Unfortunately, it is still based on several false assumptions:

1) Your math is still erroneous. If a 27 cubic km Borg cube can be flying around with a crew complement of 129,000 then a 600m wide Borg sphere (assuming your scaling is correct; I haven't looked at the scene that carefully) can be flying around with a crew of as little as 500, and probably less (a smaller craft will generally have a larger proportion of its internals devoted to machinery).

2) Your logic is still faulty. You are assuming that if it is physically possible to fit that many drones into a sphere of that size, then the sphere in STFC must have been carrying that many drones. Again, this is a groundless assumption. You don't know what the inside of that sphere looks like, and you don't know how full it was. Simply arguing that something cannot be disproven for certain does not give you latitude to assume that it's there (see Occam's Razor).

3) You are equating this sphere to the one in Voyager (which easily overwhelmed Voyager). Unfortunately, there is no reason to make this connection apart from the round shape, which isn't much of a justification. The spheres we've seen in Voyager are free-fliers, ie- they run around conducting combat operations independently. The sphere in STFC, on the other hand, was used as an escape pod, with only minimal weapons and shielding (notice how it did not even attempt to engage the E-E, and was easily destroyed by a handful of torpedoes).

As for the author failing to specify a crash landing, I don't see why you should make a big deal out of that. Since the sphere is not a landing craft, the only type of landing it could have made would be a crash landing. Otherwise, it would stay in orbit and beam its drones down to the surface.

[Robert Walper]

After looking at your response, I can see that your biggest point is the number of drones on board the sphere. Unfortunately, it is still based on several false assumptions:

1) Your math is still erroneous. If a 27 cubic km Borg cube can be flying around with a crew complement of 129,000

It should be noted that a 179 thousand drone crew complement is in fact a lower limit for Borg cubes(the fact that said cube recieved a transfer of 50 thousand additional drones concievably might suggest the cube was considered undermanned...but that's speculation). Theoritically, using the formula I have, a Borg cube could potentially hold over 23 million Borg utilizing only 1% of it's total volume. If one assumes 90% of said Borg cube being completely empty/void space(this should easily address "mostly hollow claims"), that still leaves an additionaly 9% of the volume for material of said cube. Thus, only 10% of the total cube's volume being actual material, and only 10% of that being used for maximum crew capacity. I fail to understand why this would not be considered a conservative estimate by any means. Particularily when multiple visuals have shown us that Borg drones are stacked like cargo everywhere you look inside said vessels.

then a 600m wide Borg sphere (assuming your scaling is correct; I haven't looked at the scene that carefully)

Actually, scaling is only one contributing factor to this conclusion. Last time I checked, STFC had the escaping sphere with a diameter of 600 meters. This was determined by assuming the cube in STFC was indeed approximately 3000 meters cubed, since the volume of Borg cubes was determined in STVOY "Dark Frontier". Since the sphere's diameter was approximately 1/5 the width of the Borg cube, this suggested quite clearly a diameter of roughly 600 meters.

ENT "Regeneration"(in an amazing display of Trek consistency) had scientists analysing Borg vessel debris found on Earth's surface(it was heavily suggested, to the point where I'd question any dispute, that this was in fact the sphere destroyed by the E-E during the STFC incident). They extrapolated, based upon curvature of said debris, that the vessel was spherical in shape, with a diameter of at least 600 meters.

can be flying around with a crew of as little as 500, and probably less (a smaller craft will generally have a larger proportion of its internals devoted to machinery).

I'm not disputing this sphere could operate with a small crew. Despite their size, Borg cubes can function effectively with a crew as small as 5000. Connor Macleod brought this up as well, however the episode in question heavily implied this is a minimum crew complement of a Borg cube, not standard. Seven made this observation(ref STVOY "Collective"), quote:

"You're five youth Borg operating a vessel normally crewed by five thousand."

Technically, the cube Seven was on at the time was being run by five youth Borg, though obviously very badly.

2) Your logic is still faulty. You are assuming that if it is physically possible to fit that many drones into a sphere of that size, then the sphere in STFC must have been carrying that many drones.

I'll readily concede that just because the space is available, doesn't mean it is being used.

However, to me this brings up the question, why was the sphere with the cube in the first place? I'm very dubious as to the Borg already having an escape plan preplanned, particularily given the arrogance they so often display(if they did preplan this "escape", then loading up the sphere crew capacity would make even more sense).

My speculation is that the Borg sphere may have been preparing to assist the cube in assimilating Earth. A large crew complement wouldn't be out of the question in that scenario. I submit though, that is speculation, but I consider it reasonable considering the circumstances.

Again, this is a groundless assumption. You don't know what the inside of that sphere looks like,

Which is why I make the (extremely IMO)conservative estimate based upon 1/100 of it's volume. I do assume that the sphere in question looks similar(interior), if not identical to spheres seen in Voyager. I don't have webspace upon which post an image, but I can supply said image of the interior of sphere if you request. It's an image of a Voyager sphere, but as I said, I'm assuming spheres share the same general design(exterior obviously).

and you don't know how full it was.

No, I don't, but I can put forth what I percieve as reasonable speculation as to how full it might have been(using very conservative numbers if I may say), and why. Otherwise, we're left with a big question mark(crew capacity?) with nothing to gauge, not even theoritically.

Additionally, the 11,000 drones is in fact only(roughly) 1/8 of the the crew capacity I have suggested using conservative numbers. I'm using conservative numbers for volume/crew capacity, and even assuming only 1/8 crew capacity actually present. This strikes me as quite conservative and reasonable. But correct me if I'm wrong.

Simply arguing that something cannot be disproven for certain does not give you latitude to assume that it's there (see Occam's Razor).

I'm aware of Occam's Razor, and I don't want to invoke Appeal to Ignorance either. I'm merely trying to submit some theoritical lower limit crew capacity for this sphere, and also using barely 1/8 of it to boot.

3) You are equating this sphere to the one in Voyager (which easily overwhelmed Voyager). Unfortunately, there is no reason to make this connection apart from the round shape, which isn't much of a justification. The spheres we've seen in Voyager are free-fliers, ie- they run around conducting combat operations independently. The sphere in STFC, on the other hand, was used as an escape pod, with only minimal weapons and shielding (notice how it did not even attempt to engage the E-E, and was easily destroyed by a handful of torpedoes).

I feel it's important to note the sphere in question was engaging a target already(however feebly), and had just finished initiating a time travel technology that could have been extremely taxing energy wise. I don't presume to think that Borg vessels can perform some very interesting feats(ie: time travel) without expending significant energy resources. For all we know, the sphere may have been virtually depleted after such effort on it's part.

Also, I'd like to point out another similarity between sphere witnessed in STFC and Voyager. STVOY "Drone" has Seven of Nine describing the tactical capabilities of the sphere that engaged Voyager. This is the sphere that, as you put it, overwhelmed Voyager. Seven quote: "Long range tactical vessel. Temporal capabilities." Don't hold me to this, but if I'm not mistaken, this same sphere had Voyager directly underneath it during said attack. IIRC, that sphere's diameter struck me as close to 600 meters in relation to Voyager's width(not length). I don't have the sceenshots on hand, nor can I say this with any degree of certainty, but I'll try looking up this right away to back up my recollection(one way or the other).

As for the author failing to specify a crash landing, I don't see why you should make a big deal out of that. Since the sphere is not a landing craft, the only type of landing it could have made would be a crash landing. Otherwise, it would stay in orbit and beam its drones down to the surface.

Again, subjective interpretation of said description, but I'll go with yours since it would seem more reasonable. We'll assume the sphere is completely incapacitated. This brings up another question as to how many crew would/should have been killed in said crash, though. One would think a crash devestating enough to make the sphere useless would kill a very large portion(potentially even all) of the crew

In the end, I'm simply trying to determine what reasonable figure could be for the sphere's crew complement that would end up engaging this group of Jawas.

[Darth Wong]

It should be noted that a 179 thousand drone crew complement is in fact a lower limit for Borg cubes

Wrong. A lower limit would be the minimum number of crew which can operate the cube, which is far lower.

Theoritically, using the formula I have, a Borg cube could potentially hold over 23 million Borg utilizing only 1% of it's total volume.

Which may be more alcoves than it has. Again, you are basing your figures upon completely arbitrary assumptions. The fact that it has a certain amount of interior space doesn't mean shit. You are ignoring equipment volume, the huge open cavities we've seen inside Borg cubes in the past, etc.

If one assumes 90% of said Borg cube being completely empty/void space(this should easily address "mostly hollow claims"), that still leaves an additionaly 9% of the volume for material of said cube.

All arbitrary figures, arbitrary assumptions.

Thus, only 10% of the total cube's volume being actual material, and only 10% of that being used for maximum crew capacity. I fail to understand why this would not be considered a conservative estimate by any means.

Because it is based on arbitrary figures and arbitrary assumptions. What part of this do you not understand? There is no hard evidence to support any of it. All we have are figures in the order of magnitude of 1E5 crew.

Particularily when multiple visuals have shown us that Borg drones are stacked like cargo everywhere you look inside said vessels.

Wrong. Huge open cavities. Also, you are employing a hasty generalization that every part of the cube looks like the alcove-dense areas in which most of the action takes place. I grow tired of repeating myself, and quite frankly, you're starting to piss me off with your sophistries. Your entire argument is based upon "well, it's not been shown to be impossible, and there's enough physical room inside to do it if we assume the cube is basically a cargo container full of drones, so I think it's a very conservative estimate". Bullshit. It would be one thing to make such arbitrary assumptions in lieu of evidence, but when every single crew count of any Borg cube in the entire history of the show gives crew complements which are orders of magnitude below your "conservative estimate". you simply don't have a leg to stand on. So you try to wave them all away by saying that they're special cases; again, you still don't seem to grasp Occam's Razor.

Actually, scaling is only one contributing factor to this conclusion. Last time I checked, STFC had the escaping sphere with a diameter of 600 meters. This was determined by assuming the cube in STFC was indeed approximately 3000 meters cubed, since the volume of Borg cubes was determined in STVOY "Dark Frontier". Since the sphere's diameter was approximately 1/5 the width of the Borg cube, this suggested quite clearly a diameter of roughly 600 meters.

Got a screenshot?

ENT "Regeneration"(in an amazing display of Trek consistency) had scientists analysing Borg vessel debris found on Earth's surface(it was heavily suggested, to the point where I'd question any dispute, that this was in fact the sphere destroyed by the E-E during the STFC incident). They extrapolated, based upon curvature of said debris, that the vessel was spherical in shape, with a diameter of at least 600 meters.

Enterprise takes place in an alternate reality of Star Trek. You and I both know it. Everyone knows it. Unless you'd care to show me Archer's ship in Kirk's or Picard's collections of old ships named Enterprise.

I'm not disputing this sphere could operate with a small crew. Despite their size, Borg cubes can function effectively with a crew as small as 5000. Connor Macleod brought this up as well, however the episode in question heavily implied this is a minimum crew complement of a Borg cube, not standard.

Irrelevant. The point is that you cannot assume this sphere has any more crew than it needs to operate, and it may even have far less. Has it ever occurred to you that most spheres might not have this time-travel equipment built into them? And that this sphere might have been almost entirely filled with special equipment, leaving almost no room for crew?

This is not that fucking complicated, Robert. The sphere was only KNOWN to have a tiny number of crew onboard. All of your bullshit assumptions to the contrary are just that: assumptions.

Frankly, I'm not interested in answering any more of your long-winded repetitive bullshit. You do not seem to understand the distinction between assumption and observation, because you treat them both with equal credibility. Your entire argument and all of its long-winded fanboy wankery in this thread are all based on that singular problem in your thinking.

[Robert Walper]

*sigh* Alright. I'll concede the arguement to all concerned then.

[Ted C]

It should be noted that a 179 thousand drone crew complement is in fact a lower limit for Borg cubes

Wrong. A lower limit would be the minimum number of crew which can operate the cube, which is far lower.

In fairness to Robert, it is a lower limit in the sense that we know that the cube was able to accomodate at least 179,000 drones (assuming all his cited figures are correct), regardless of how many it actually needs to operate.

[Darth Wong]

It should be noted that a 179 thousand drone crew complement is in fact a lower limit for Borg cubes

Wrong. A lower limit would be the minimum number of crew which can operate the cube, which is far lower.

In fairness to Robert, it is a lower limit in the sense that we know that the cube was able to accomodate at least 179,000 drones (assuming all his cited figures are correct), regardless of how many it actually needs to operate.

It appears you don't know what "lower limit" means. If it's a true lower limit, then it's impossible for an operational Borg cube to have less than that number of crew. Care to revise your statement?

[Robert Walper]

It should be noted that a 179 thousand drone crew complement is in fact a lower limit for Borg cubes

Wrong. A lower limit would be the minimum number of crew which can operate the cube, which is far lower.

In fairness to Robert, it is a lower limit in the sense that we know that the cube was able to accomodate at least 179,000 drones (assuming all his cited figures are correct), regardless of how many it actually needs to operate.

Thanks for the support on that specific point, Ted. I thought the statement was self explanatory, but I guess I could have worded it more specifically/carefully.

[Darth Wong]

Are you really this fucking stupid? Do you know why we call certain things lower limitS? It's because it's IMPOSSIBLE for the true figure to be any lower, hence the term LIMIT. Unless you're saying it's IMPOSSIBLE for a Borg cube to have less than 179,000 crew, you're full of shit.

[Robert Walper]

Wrong. A lower limit would be the minimum number of crew which can operate the cube, which is far lower.

In fairness to Robert, it is a lower limit in the sense that we know that the cube was able to accomodate at least 179,000 drones (assuming all his cited figures are correct), regardless of how many it actually needs to operate.

It appears you don't know what "lower limit" means. If it's a true lower limit, then it's impossible for an operational Borg cube to have less than that number of crew. Care to revise your statement?

If it had been worded as a "upper" limit, wouldn't that imply it's unreasonable to speculate that the cube might be able to support more drones?

I thought upper limit implied that anything more is virtually an impossible assumption to put forth?

[Robert Walper]

Are you really this fucking stupid? Do you know why we call certain things lower limitS? It's because it's IMPOSSIBLE for the true figure to be any lower, hence the term LIMIT. Unless you're saying it's IMPOSSIBLE for a Borg cube to have less than 179,000 crew, you're full of shit.

Then I was obviously in error wording the crew complement as a lower limit. Sorry Mike, I'm not perfect...

[Darth Wong]

If it had been worded as a "upper" limit, wouldn't that imply it's unreasonable to speculate that the cube might be able to support more drones?

I thought upper limit implied that anything more is virtually an impossible assumption to put forth?

Of course, which is why it is neither an upper limit or a lower limit for Borg cube crew. Did you seriously think that every figure must be one or the other?

[Ted C]

It appears you don't know what "lower limit" means. If it's a true lower limit, then it's impossible for an operational Borg cube to have less than that number of crew. Care to revise your statement?

Perhaps I misunderstand the situation, but I was under the impression that we were discussing the "lower limit" on how many drones a cube could potentially carry, not on how many it actually requires to operate.

Since a cube was known to be able to carry 179,000 drones, that would be the lower limit value for a cube's "maximum complement".

What you are describing is the cube's minimum crew requirement, which is a different value.

[Robert Walper]

If it had been worded as a "upper" limit, wouldn't that imply it's unreasonable to speculate that the cube might be able to support more drones?

I thought upper limit implied that anything more is virtually an impossible assumption to put forth?

Of course, which is why it is neither an upper limit or a lower limit for Borg cube crew. Did you seriously think that every figure must be one or the other?

Not at all. As I stated, my mistake in using the terminology "lower limit" inaccurately. Sorry.

[Darth Wong]

Perhaps I misunderstand the situation, but I was under the impression that we were discussing the "lower limit" on how many drones a cube could potentially carry, not on how many it actually requires to operate.

The lower limit on its upper limit? That's a rather bizarre definition of "lower limit", isn't it? A cube's crew capacity has an upper limit (maximum that the ship can hold) and a lower limit (minimum that it can carry while retaining functionality). Those are the limits which we must use in order to put bounds on the figures which we consider reasonable for any given cube of as-yet unknown capacity.

Let's put it this way: the lower limit for the number of people in a car driving down the highway is 1. The upper limit might be as high as 8 or 9, depending on the car. Under no circumstances would you say that if you saw 4 people in a given car, then the lower limit for a car's contents is 4 people.