The A-wing and the Odyssey

[Alyeska]

The Engineering section on the Odyssey was damaged by the explossion from another ship. The KE from the ship is meaingless, it was the explossion from the Attack Ship that damaged the Odyssey.

So what? In an impact between ships made of similar materials, you can toss a coin; one of them has to go first. In this case, it was the JH fighter by a split-second. In other cases, it was Klingon cruisers that went first. You are using a happenstance which changes nothing, in order to distract from the observed fact that these ships cannot handle those kinds of impacts.

The JH Attack Ship (they are not fighters) died much sooner then the Odyssey. Note how the JH Attack Ship explodes instantly on impact. That clearly indicates something other then KE was at work and that explossive impact is what damaged and eventually destroyed the Odyssey. Claiming it was the KE is like claiming the KE from a Harpoon missile is enough to sink a Ticonderoga class cruiser. No, its the explossion and internal damage that scores the kill. Big difference.

[Alyeska]

So... the engineering section of the Odyssey is a particularly vulnerable point. The saucer section of a Constitution is a particularly vulnerable point (ref. ST:VI). The area where Quark was when the Jem'Hadar ship fired its dud torpedo was a vulnerable point. ALL of ST ships appear to be vulnerable to KE impacts. Have you any evidence that the engineering section was less well protected than other parts, even though it should be BETTER protected because of the proximity of critical sections to it?

That particular GCS weakness was eventually fixed as is evidence by the USS Galaxy in Tears of the Prophets DS9.

[Akira]

So... the engineering section of the Odyssey is a particularly vulnerable point. The saucer section of a Constitution is a particularly vulnerable point (ref. ST:VI). The area where Quark was when the Jem'Hadar ship fired its dud torpedo was a vulnerable point. ALL of ST ships appear to be vulnerable to KE impacts. Have you any evidence that the engineering section was less well protected than other parts, even though it should be BETTER protected because of the proximity of critical sections to it?

That particular GCS weakness was eventually fixed as is evidence by the USS Galaxy in Tears of the Prophets DS9.

Yep in Tears of the Prophets the USS Galaxy is clearly shown to have been hit a number of times in the Nav dish by the weapons platforms. There were a number of blasts that clearly were not stopped by the shields.

I would have to watch the ep again, but I think at one point the USS Galaxy also rams though one of the platforms in that some place.

[Darth Wong]

So what? In an impact between ships made of similar materials, you can toss a coin; one of them has to go first. In this case, it was the JH fighter by a split-second. In other cases, it was Klingon cruisers that went first. You are using a happenstance which changes nothing, in order to distract from the observed fact that these ships cannot handle those kinds of impacts.

The JH Attack Ship (they are not fighters) died much sooner then the Odyssey.

A split-second.

Note how the JH Attack Ship explodes instantly on impact. That clearly indicates something other then KE was at work and that explossive impact is what damaged and eventually destroyed the Odyssey.

And what destroyed the JH bug, pray tell? Could it have been ... the impact? My point apparently zoomed right over your head. One of those two ships had to fail from the impact first, and it was the JH bug. We've seen other cases where Klingon cruisers failed first.

Claiming it was the KE is like claiming the KE from a Harpoon missile is enough to sink a Ticonderoga class cruiser. No, its the explossion and internal damage that scores the kill. Big difference.

Actually, it was the impact that killed the JH ship, and we cannot determine how much damage the GCS would have taken if the JH ship had not exploded from that impact. However, we CAN determine that Klingon cruisers can be torn in half by similar impacts, so it was really just happenstance that the JH ship was destroyed by the impact before the GCS was. Unless, of course, you believe that a GCS hull is orders of magnitude stronger than a Klingon cruiser hull.

[Alyeska]

Unless of course the JH Attackship was intentionally detonated on impact.

[Darth Wong]

Unless of course the JH Attackship was intentionally detonated on impact.

I've heard this one before. All good munitions experts agree that it's best to detonate an explosive just before impact, rather than penetrating as deeply as possible before detonation, right?

[Alyeska]

Unless of course the JH Attackship was intentionally detonated on impact.

I've heard this one before. All good munitions experts agree that it's best to detonate an explosive just before impact, rather than penetrating as deeply as possible before detonation, right?

If the hull failed and caused the explossion, shouldn't the JH Attackship have impacted further untill explossion? It should have crumpled until the explossive portion impacted and exploded. Instead it impacts and the moment it impacts the entire ship explodes from three seperate points and hardly damages the GCS.

I see your claim that the Attackship was weaker then the GCS but stronger then a Vorcha. But that is a massive difference in hullstrength that we haven't seen supported before or after. All other instances show the Klingons and Federation to have similar strength hulls.

[Akira]

Unless of course the JH Attackship was intentionally detonated on impact.

I've heard this one before. All good munitions experts agree that it's best to detonate an explosive just before impact, rather than penetrating as deeply as possible before detonation, right?

If the hull failed and caused the explossion, shouldn't the JH Attackship have impacted further untill explossion? It should have crumpled until the explossive portion impacted and exploded. Instead it impacts and the moment it impacts the entire ship explodes from three seperate points and hardly damages the GCS.

I see your claim that the Attackship was weaker then the GCS but stronger then a Vorcha. But that is a massive difference in hullstrength that we haven't seen supported before or after. All other instances show the Klingons and Federation to have similar strength hulls.

Also the JH bugs rammed the Vorcha's in their weakest points in the hull. If a JH attack ship rammed a GCS though the pylon, then the bug would come out the other side as well.

[Darth Wong]

If the hull failed and caused the explossion, shouldn't the JH Attackship have impacted further untill explossion? It should have crumpled until the explossive portion impacted and exploded. Instead it impacts and the moment it impacts the entire ship explodes from three seperate points and hardly damages the GCS.

Internal systems cooking off as the ship's structure buckled. Since you can't see through the ship, you have no way of knowing how far it penetrated into the hull before it blew up.

I see your claim that the Attackship was weaker then the GCS but stronger then a Vorcha. But that is a massive difference in hullstrength that we haven't seen supported before or after. All other instances show the Klingons and Federation to have similar strength hulls.

Don't be ridiculous; the GCS obviously has a thicker hull in that area than the JH bug does; it doesn't mean that the material strength is any different. If the JH bug had not blown up, the bug would have undoubtedly slammed deep into the hull, just as it did in the case of the Klingon ships.

[Alyeska]

Internal systems cooking off as the ship's structure buckled. Since you can't see through the ship, you have no way of knowing how far it penetrated into the hull before it blew up.

Except from that picture you can see the entire ship is intact. It bores in and just suddenly explodes. One frame it is intact, the next its started to explode.

Don't be ridiculous; the GCS obviously has a thicker hull in that area than the JH bug does; it doesn't mean that the material strength is any different. If the JH bug had not blown up, the bug would have undoubtedly slammed deep into the hull, just as it did in the case of the Klingon ships.

I suppose.

[Darth Wong]

Except from that picture you can see the entire ship is intact. It bores in and just suddenly explodes. One frame it is intact, the next its started to explode.

And you can see THROUGH its structure from BEHIND in order to see if its FRONT contacted metal and buckled before this happened? Wow, you must have X-ray vision.

Don't be ridiculous; the GCS obviously has a thicker hull in that area than the JH bug does; it doesn't mean that the material strength is any different. If the JH bug had not blown up, the bug would have undoubtedly slammed deep into the hull, just as it did in the case of the Klingon ships.

I suppose.

Well, I guess we're making some progress

[Alyeska]

Look at the angle of the JH Attackship. Watching the entire clip you can see that the nose of the JH Attackship is intact up untill impact/explossion. The ship exploded on contact.

[Ender]

I don't suppose this could get back on topic? No?

Meh, I'll just waiot a month and start this thread again then.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

I don't suppose this could get back on topic? No?

Meh, I'll just waiot a month and start this thread again then.

Just make sure to tell Alyeska he's not allowed to post in it.

[Darth Wong]

Look at the angle of the JH Attackship. Watching the entire clip you can see that the nose of the JH Attackship is intact up untill impact/explossion. The ship exploded on contact.

And you are assured of no significant structural deformation at this time? You ARE aware that structural failure would occur in less than one frame at that speed, are you not?

[Kamakazie Sith]

Yep in Tears of the Prophets the USS Galaxy is clearly shown to have been hit a number of times in the Nav dish by the weapons platforms. There were a number of blasts that clearly were not stopped by the shields.

I would have to watch the ep again, but I think at one point the USS Galaxy also rams though one of the platforms in that some place.

The USS Galaxy was never hit in her NAV dish.....she was hit once in the saucer section, starboard from the Captains yacht. Then once in the engineering section, just starboard of the warp core ejection plates.

[Typhonis 1]

Wouldnt all those windows make a SIF field nessesary given how realatively large they are?I meanthats an area thats weakend because it isnt hull material.Those large windows servew no reall purpoise other than a nice view ,shoot they could make do with small portholes like Kirk did

[Isolder74]

Wouldnt all those windows make a SIF field nessesary given how realatively large they are?I meanthats an area thats weakend because it isnt hull material.Those large windows servew no reall purpoise other than a nice view ,shoot they could make do with small portholes like Kirk did

Exactally why the ships I design only have portholes

[Master of Ossus]

Actually, the windows appear to be forcefields, without any glass to speak of. This is pretty consistently the way they are depicted in ST.

[Alyeska]

Actually, the windows appear to be forcefields, without any glass to speak of. This is pretty consistently the way they are depicted in ST.

Incorrect. That was only evident with the Enterprise at that one time in First Contact. In TNG the crew felt that forcefields were not as reliable as physical barriers to hold out a possible virus. The fact that the "window" in First Contact was left closed and had to have a door opened to view through it indicates it was some sort of other port. It was not located in a place where windows would even remotely be placed as it was in an access part of the ship for engineering rather then quarters or 10 Forward.

[CmdrWilkens]

The Jemhadar incident with the Odyssey is not a pure KE impact. On the moment of impact the Attack Ship starts to explode in three points. That is on the very instant of Impact.

Forgive my skepticism but do you have a screencap of that?

Yeah.

Your going to have to cut and paste these in a seperate window and remove the http:// bit in order to view them.
<snip links>

This is the next frame of the explossion. Again notice how it is cenetered on the Deflector dish.

What is funny is that your "explosion" frame looks like nothing more than the same exact color spectra as the engines at a slightly greater intensity. Do you have any proof to counter my assertion that, given no noticeable change in spectra, what you are witnessing is simply the engines flaring for a last second extra ounce of impact force?

[Alyeska]

Forgive my skepticism but do you have a screencap of that?

Yeah.

Your going to have to cut and paste these in a seperate window and remove the http:// bit in order to view them.
<snip links>

This is the next frame of the explossion. Again notice how it is cenetered on the Deflector dish.

What is funny is that your "explosion" frame looks like nothing more than the same exact color spectra as the engines at a slightly greater intensity. Do you have any proof to counter my assertion that, given no noticeable change in spectra, what you are witnessing is simply the engines flaring for a last second extra ounce of impact force?

JH Engines are Blue and don't flare Orange.

[Master of Ossus]

Also the JH bugs rammed the Vorcha's in their weakest points in the hull. If a JH attack ship rammed a GCS though the pylon, then the bug would come out the other side as well.

Weakest part of the hull my ass. They rammed straight through the main section of the Vor'Cha. The same area where Kira asked incredulously what could blow a hole the size of a house in such a cruiser.

[Kamakazie Sith]

Also the JH bugs rammed the Vorcha's in their weakest points in the hull. If a JH attack ship rammed a GCS though the pylon, then the bug would come out the other side as well.

Weakest part of the hull my ass. They rammed straight through the main section of the Vor'Cha. The same area where Kira asked incredulously what could blow a hole the size of a house in such a cruiser.

Actually they didn't. The bugs that rammed the main section (I think your talking about the engineering section, which has the triangle like structure on top) never went all the way through, like the bugs that rammed the warp nacell pylons.

I watched it several times to be sure.

[Darth Wong]

Actually they didn't. The bugs that rammed the main section (I think your talking about the engineering section, which has the triangle like structure on top) never went all the way through, like the bugs that rammed the warp nacell pylons.

I watched it several times to be sure.

Watch it again. Get the divx codec and click here. The Klingon ship is torn in half, and when we last see the JH bug, it hasn't even lost much speed, which indicates truly pathetic impact resistance on the part of the Klingon ship's hull.

{EDIT: this is why the Odyssey was LUCKY that the JH bug blew up, either due to its own failure or an explosion from the nav deflector, which is "charged with antiprotons; the explosion scattered the debris and kept it from plowing through the hull, although the Odyssey's well-known defective design made it blow up anyway).