"Is there a God?", my niece asked.

zombie84 · Post by **zombie84** » 2003-12-18 03:05pm

I dont see what the big deal is when kids ask this question.

"Is there a god?"

The answer: "Well, no one knows, but some believe that there is, and different people believe in different gods. Many people also believe that there is no god, and although those that do believe may think less of them, people who dont believe in god are as moral and intelligent--sometimes moreso--than those who do, and if you chose to not believe in god you shouldnt feel in any way gulity or inferior because of that. The answer is up to you to determine. I myself do not believe in a god because in my opinion there is no evidence of his existance."

There is nothing wrong with answering in that manner, as it fairly adresses the many different belief systems objectivly.

As to whether it is okay to tell someone elses child that "there is no god", i think it is perfectly acceptable to tell them "i dont believe in god" and when pressed for your reasons to go into why you believe such. Inquiry and rationality are the greatest qualities you can ever hope for in a child.

I think it is interesting when children ask if there is a god, at least from the atheistic point of view: even children begin to suspect that the belief in god is irrational, just as they begin to question the validity of such ludirous notions as Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy around the exact same age. It just shows how ridiculous religious belief is, and it is only through sociological brainwashing that it is able to persist in adults.

Darth Raptor · Post by **Darth Raptor** » 2003-12-18 03:56pm

Of course, it SHOULDN'T be a big deal. Unfortunately, it is.
Question: What's the best way to deal with crimes against humanity?
Answer: Prevention
I fail to see what everyone finds so innocuous about a potential religious fundamentalist. Christian Fundamentalism may be more socially acceptable in North America and Europe but that doesn't make it any less dangerous than say Islamic or Jewish fundamentalism. I would liken it to my niece asking me if the things said in Mein Kampf were true. Don't forget what a venomous book of amoral ethics the Bible really is.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-12-18 04:19pm

Stravo wrote:If my brother were to tell my daughter there is no God you can bet I would shove my foot so far up his ass he would have to open his mouth for me to tie my shoe.

Even though she asked him? Are you saying that every atheist in your presence is OBLIGATED to lie when your daughter asks them direct questions, just in case they might offend you by giving the "wrong" answer that they happen to sincerely believe is correct?

He is my brother and has NO RIGHT particulalrly since he has no kids to undermine the way I am raising my child.

Stravo, if your daughter is asking him, it's because she's having doubts. If she's having doubts, it means she wants to hear what the other side has to say. There's a point at which you must recognize that there's a difference between "my child" and "my property".

Would you people think it would be cool or serve some higher purpose to tell your brother's child that there was no Santa Claus?

Irrelevant. If the kid comes straight out and asks whether Santa exists, it means he's reached the stage of intellectual development where he doubts the myth already, and is looking for an honest answer from an adult.

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2003-12-18 04:29pm

Darth Wong wrote:
Stravo wrote:If my brother were to tell my daughter there is no God you can bet I would shove my foot so far up his ass he would have to open his mouth for me to tie my shoe.
Even though she asked him? Are you saying that every atheist in your presence is OBLIGATED to lie when your daughter asks them direct questions, just in case they might offend you by giving the "wrong" answer that they happen to sincerely believe is correct?.

I said MY BROTHER. I expect my own blood to back me up if I want to raise my child believing in God. I don't expect strangers to know my mind or what I'm doing with my daughter. My brother sure as hell knows and he can simply say: "Some people believe and some don't." there's no need to say "There is no god." That's for her to decide later on in life as I did.

He is my brother and has NO RIGHT particulalrly since he has no kids to undermine the way I am raising my child.

Darth Wong wrote:[Stravo, if your daughter is asking him, it's because she's having doubts. If she's having doubts, it means she wants to hear what the other side has to say. There's a point at which you must recognize that there's a difference between "my child" and "my property"..

There's a difference between shattering a child's illusions and a parent's wishes for what a child should be exposed to and serving some supposed higher purpose of telling the child 'the truth'. Some people don't believe that is the 'truth' and frankly we lie to our children about many things through life from "Fluffy is just sleeping" to "All you need to do in life is work hard and have 2.4 kids and a white picket fence" So let's not suddenly take the moral high ground about lying to children.

Would you people think it would be cool or serve some higher purpose to tell your brother's child that there was no Santa Claus?

Darth Wong wrote:[Irrelevant. If the kid comes straight out and asks whether Santa exists, it means he's reached the stage of intellectual development where he doubts the myth already, and is looking for an honest answer from an adult.

If my 5 year old is asking me that because some older friends in school told her so thats not the same as her standing there on Christmas morning and making the connection on her own. Self discovery is a thousand times better than simply being told. And maybe I want them to enjoy their childhood. What's the rush for having kids grow up anyway?

Darth Raptor · Post by **Darth Raptor** » 2003-12-18 04:32pm

Self discovery is next to impossible unless the child is exposed differing opinions from credible sources. When you're awash in nothing but Christian dogma, it is the only thing that will leave an impression on you.

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2003-12-18 04:40pm

Lazy Raptor wrote:Self discovery is next to impossible unless the child is exposed differing opinions from credible sources. When you're awash in nothing but Christian dogma, it is the only thing that will leave an impression on you.

Talk to the preacher's kids who have grown up to be athiests and the children of fundies that have rejected theri parents faith in God. Awash in fundy propaganda most usally leads to rebellion of that propaganda when you grow older. I rebelled against my family's and cultire's strict right wing philosophies when I grew up and could think for myself. I didn't have an uncle whisper to me "Not everyone that is against the Cuban embargo is a Communist."

And I'm certainly not a fundie so we're not really talking about the same thing. I believe in a higher power and I want my daughter to be exposed to this idea. When she grows up in goes into the world it will do its damndest to have her conform to its own ideas and values and our job as parents is to give them a grounding in values that we repect and cherish.

Let the world do what it has to do when she's older but for now, this is my chance to show her my 'truths'. The truths that have served me well through good times and bad.

Darth Raptor · Post by **Darth Raptor** » 2003-12-18 04:45pm

I didn't say it WAS impossible. But are you saying that your rejection of fundamentalist ideology wasn't made possible by exposure to alternative, secular viewpoints? I for one know how difficult and painful it is to overcome ones childhood indoctrination, and it was made possible by secular books, programs, websites and most importantly, people.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-12-18 04:49pm

Stravo wrote:I said MY BROTHER. I expect my own blood to back me up if I want to raise my child believing in God. I don't expect strangers to know my mind or what I'm doing with my daughter. My brother sure as hell knows and he can simply say: "Some people believe and some don't." there's no need to say "There is no god." That's for her to decide later on in life as I did.

If you made it clear to him beforehand that this is important to you, he would probably respect your wishes. However, the act of giving a straight answer to an honest question from a kid on such matters is not intrinsically rude or harmful.

There's a difference between shattering a child's illusions and a parent's wishes for what a child should be exposed to and serving some supposed higher purpose of telling the child 'the truth'. Some people don't believe that is the 'truth' and frankly we lie to our children about many things through life from "Fluffy is just sleeping" to "All you need to do in life is work hard and have 2.4 kids and a white picket fence" So let's not suddenly take the moral high ground about lying to children.

I don't lie to my kids about those things either. If you've taken your brother aside and said it's really important for you that she be sheltered on this matter, he's your brother and he'll probably do as you ask. I know I would. But that doesn't mean it's about anything more than your personal sensitivities.

Darth Wong wrote:[Irrelevant. If the kid comes straight out and asks whether Santa exists, it means he's reached the stage of intellectual development where he doubts the myth already, and is looking for an honest answer from an adult.
If my 5 year old is asking me that because some older friends in school told her so thats not the same as her standing there on Christmas morning and making the connection on her own.

What difference does it make? The point is that the kid's curiosity is piqued, and he or she is about to learn whether you tell the truth when asked a straight question. My older son asked me that question around that age, and I gave him a straight answer. I tell my son never to lie to me, and that means I shouldn't lie to him either.

Self discovery is a thousand times better than simply being told.

And both are better than being carefully sheltered. When I was 10 years old, I wrote an essay on the sensationalism and falsehood of the media's portrayal of nuclear power generation safety. A 9 year old is old enough to start getting straight answers from an adult.

And maybe I want them to enjoy their childhood. What's the rush for having kids grow up anyway?

I was unaware that falsehoods were a prerequisite to an enjoyable childhood.

Listen, if you want to raise your kids that way, that's your business. But don't try to elevate it to act as though there is some intrinsic harm done by telling kids what you perceive to be the truth.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-12-18 04:49pm

Stravo wrote:
Lazy Raptor wrote:Self discovery is next to impossible unless the child is exposed differing opinions from credible sources. When you're awash in nothing but Christian dogma, it is the only thing that will leave an impression on you.
Talk to the preacher's kids who have grown up to be athiests and the children of fundies that have rejected theri parents faith in God. Awash in fundy propaganda most usally leads to rebellion of that propaganda when you grow older. I rebelled against my family's and cultire's strict right wing philosophies when I grew up and could think for myself. I didn't have an uncle whisper to me "Not everyone that is against the Cuban embargo is a Communist."

No, but you had a lot of societal influences. That's why closed communities experience far less rebellion.

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2003-12-18 04:54pm

Darth Wong wrote:Listen, if you want to raise your kids that way, that's your business. But don't try to elevate it to act as though there is some intrinsic harm done by telling kids what you perceive to be the truth.

I am trying to limit this to just my own child. My statement earlier was a personal one. If MY brother did that then I would kick his ass.

I do however have issues with this growing view that kids need to be treated like little adults because they're not. They are children and should be allowed to indulge in a little childhood fantasy and niativity. I remember some of the ludicrous ideas I had about where babies came from and it certainly never scarred me to learn the truth later.

If we as parents want to raise our kids religious or at least believing then let schools and educators expose them to reason and logic then what's the harm in that?

Darth Raptor · Post by **Darth Raptor** » 2003-12-18 04:58pm

There is none. The basic issue is whether you are going to tell your niece the truth, or candy-coat your response.

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2003-12-18 04:59pm

Lazy Raptor wrote:There is none. The basic issue is whether you are going to tell your niece the truth, or candy-coat your response.

In which case I say a candy coating is absolutely harmless.

PrinceofLowLight · Post by **PrinceofLowLight** » 2003-12-18 05:03pm

Think of it this way: If you were a kid, would you want to be lied to or do you want an honest opinion from someone? I know I remember I liked talking to the relatives who had something interesting to say that wasn't just the same thing you hear out of every TV show and teacher.

Darth Raptor · Post by **Darth Raptor** » 2003-12-18 05:03pm

But said niece asked ME if I believed in God. She didn't ask what all the people of the world of varying faiths and walks of life had to say on the subject.

Rye · Post by **Rye** » 2003-12-18 05:06pm

I think this is why ghostbusters should be shown to every child as they're growing up.

Winston: Ray, do you believe in God?
Ray: Never met him.

Which would be my answer, should a kid ever ask me it. In addition to this, it also has lots of other paranormal things in it which aren't related to God, but Gozer, so maybe the kids will be more open to the idea of several gods possibly existing...yes, i believe there are many important lessons within hit 1984 film Ghostbusters.

Post by **haas mark** » 2003-12-18 05:07pm

I don't know how I would answer the question, honestly. Especially being pagan. If the kid were one of my cousins, it would certainly be difficult for me to respond honestly, as my family is Roman Catholic. And it certainly wouldn't go over well with them for them to find out I were pagan. And to answer atheistically, I would be lying on my part, as per my beliefs. So in essence I could say yes, there is a god and still be telling the truth.. but if I were to be asked if I believe in God, I would probably have a harder time answering that than an atheist (should the kid be in a Christian household) as an atheist could easily answer that, and the inherent "why" that would come after it. I'd have to explain that yes I beliebe in god, but that I believe in a different set of gods, what they were, and why I believe in them... gah, it makes my head hurt to think about doing such..

~ver

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2003-12-18 05:09pm

Stravo wrote:If we as parents want to raise our kids religious or at least believing then let schools and educators expose them to reason and logic then what's the harm in that?

That depends on how thoroughly you indoctrinate your kids. If you send them to religious school, they'll be taught that Christianity is logical and rational, and therefore be exposed to fraudulent claims in an academic setting, corrupting their ability to think critically.

And let's be honest here, it's far more difficult to shake an idea you've been taught since you were a child. That's why churches snatch up children as soon as possible, so they can begin indoctrinating them at the earliest possible age. The harder it is for someone to shake Christianity, the more likely he'll be to donate to his church.

Post by **haas mark** » 2003-12-18 05:12pm

Lazy Raptor wrote:But said niece asked ME if I believed in God. She didn't ask what all the people of the world of varying faiths and walks of life had to say on the subject.

And it wouldn't be a good idea to let her know about those other people..?

~ver

Darth Raptor · Post by **Darth Raptor** » 2003-12-18 05:15pm

verilon wrote:
Lazy Raptor wrote:But said niece asked ME if I believed in God. She didn't ask what all the people of the world of varying faiths and walks of life had to say on the subject.
And it wouldn't be a good idea to let her know about those other people..?

~ver

Not at all, I'm assuming the bright little girl has some follow ups, but having that as my original response is too much like evading the issue.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-12-18 05:17pm

Stravo wrote:In which case I say a candy coating is absolutely harmless.

And you would be incorrect. Falsehoods are not harmless. At worst, they sow the seeds of irrational thinking which can plague them for the rest of their lives. At best, they merely damage your credibility as a parent because your kid learns not to expect straight answers from you. They are not harmless.

As I said, you have the right to raise your kid the way you see fit, but you keep expressing your personal preferences as if they are universal, ie- "I do however have issues with this growing view that kids need to be treated like little adults because they're not."

It is generally agreed that kids should be allowed to act like kids, but that means that we don't discipline them like adults or expect them to act like adults. It does not necessarily mean they should be sheltered from the facts. We protect them from the elements, from predators, even from their own mistakes, but it serves no constructive purpose to shelter them from the truth.

Zac Naloen · Post by **Zac Naloen** » 2003-12-18 05:21pm

We protect them from the elements, from predators, even from their own mistakes, but it serves no constructive purpose to shelter them from the truth.

quite possibly the best "father" quote i have ever seen....

Post by **haas mark** » 2003-12-18 05:23pm

Darth Wong wrote:
Stravo wrote:In which case I say a candy coating is absolutely harmless.
And you would be incorrect. Falsehoods are not harmless.

I'ma play devil's advocate and ask how a candy coating is necessarily a falsehood..

~ver

Post by **haas mark** » 2003-12-18 05:24pm

Lazy Raptor wrote:
verilon wrote:
Lazy Raptor wrote:But said niece asked ME if I believed in God. She didn't ask what all the people of the world of varying faiths and walks of life had to say on the subject.
And it wouldn't be a good idea to let her know about those other people..?

~ver
Not at all, I'm assuming the bright little girl has some follow ups, but having that as my original response is too much like evading the issue.

Ah ok.

~ver

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-12-18 05:25pm

verilon wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:
Stravo wrote:In which case I say a candy coating is absolutely harmless.
And you would be incorrect. Falsehoods are not harmless.
I'ma play devil's advocate and ask how a candy coating is necessarily a falsehood..

~ver

Context of that part of the discussion was Santa Claus. There's no way to describe Santa Claus as anything but a falsehood (sorry, Dalton).

Post by **haas mark** » 2003-12-18 05:26pm

Darth Wong wrote:Context of that part of the discussion was Santa Claus. There's no way to describe Santa Claus as anything but a falsehood (sorry, Dalton).

Ok then.

~ver