Yet another "I'm not a Trekkie, but ..." E-mail

[Connor MacLeod]

Yeah, I misunderstood what you said (I thought you were inferring they were actual turrets, not turret-like. My mistake )

[Howedar]

Well I guess they could theoretically still be turrets, and the big discs are just protection for the end of the barrels so near to the engines. Or something. I see no reason to believe that, but I guess it's technically possible.


I don't like the flap explaination either, though. What possible use could there be for movable flaps there ahead of the engines, when the ship is specifically stated not to be capable of atmospheric flight?

[Connor MacLeod]

I don't like the flap explaination either, though. What possible use could there be for movable flaps there ahead of the engines, when the ship is specifically stated not to be capable of atmospheric flight?

Magnetic fields for redirecting/channeling thrust, possibly.

[Howedar]

Then why do they need external structures that, if they aren't turrets, look for all the world like mechanical actuators?

[Connor MacLeod]

Then why do they need external structures that, if they aren't turrets, look for all the world like mechanical actuators?

Redundancy, perhaps. Much like with how the gunnery systems on a Star Destroyer are, I imagine.

[Howedar]

No, what I'm saying is that I fail to see how mechanical actuators would have anything to do with magnetic thrust vectoring and the like.


Don't get me wrong, I have no better ideas. I'm just bitching.

[Connor MacLeod]

No, what I'm saying is that I fail to see how mechanical actuators would have anything to do with magnetic thrust vectoring and the like.


Don't get me wrong, I have no better ideas. I'm just bitching.

Well, there's alot of little details on the ISD I'd be hard pressed to put purposes to, but taht doesnt really bother me. (did you ever notice the little windmill-like projection in the trenches in some of the images?)

[Lord Poe]

No, what I'm saying is that I fail to see how mechanical actuators would have anything to do with magnetic thrust vectoring and the like.


Don't get me wrong, I have no better ideas. I'm just bitching.

Maybe they...have something to do with berthing when ISDs go into drydock?

[Connor MacLeod]

No, what I'm saying is that I fail to see how mechanical actuators would have anything to do with magnetic thrust vectoring and the like.


Don't get me wrong, I have no better ideas. I'm just bitching.

Maybe they...have something to do with berthing when ISDs go into drydock?

That's actually a very good idea. I do think some Star Destroyers dock rear-end first in some cases.

[Lord Poe]

That's actually a very good idea. I do think some Star Destroyers dock rear-end first in some cases.

THe last words of drydock supervisor Leon Martin:

"Star Destroyer Boo-Tay, back dat ass up to da drydock beyoch!"

[Connor MacLeod]

That's actually a very good idea. I do think some Star Destroyers dock rear-end first in some cases.

THe last words of drydock supervisor Leon Martin:

"Star Destroyer Boo-Tay, back dat ass up to da drydock beyoch!"

Just be careful of flatulence

[The Yosemite Bear]

The only time besides Eloen of Troyous, there was "Journy To Babel" where ther Orions beat the shit out of the enterprise by overclocking their engines....

by and large if you look at what's been done, ST has been crippling it's self for quite some time.

[Elim Garak]

Find me one TOS episode in which the ships engaged at RELATIVE speeds exceeding c. Elaan of Troyius? No dice; watch that episode with your eyes and ears open.

I think "Journey to Babel" shows that.

Wherever YOU got that, you mean, since I don't know what article you are referring to.

You also accuse the world of ST as being unrealistically utopian, but the old republic did not even have a standing military, which for a galaxy sized govenment seems extremely unrealistic.

No, it had a standing navy, but not ground armies. This makes sense since individual planets would maintain their own ground armies. Please try to pay attention when you watch the movies.

He is right, though. In many ways the government was very unrealistic. I am surprised it survived as long as it did - unless it was there mostly just for show, and was completely ineffective on purpose. Like required 3/4ths majority to pass a law or something.

You also seem to hold ST to what you see on screen is exactly what you get, no more, no less. I did read your canon page, but you seem to have taken the idea that nothing except what is in the series or movies is real a bit too far.

"Too far" by what criteria?

For example, you say there is no evidence of much of a ground combat capability for the Federation. That may be true, but just because you don't see it on ST, doesn't make it necessarily true.

Wrong. See:
- Siege of AR-588
- Reunification Part 2
- Paradise Lost
- Tears of the Prophets
- Nor the Battle to the Strong

True. OTOH, what about orbital strikes? Unlike in SW, controlling the high orbitals will give you victory.

All of the series and the movies focus on the actions on a particular ship or station, and not much else.

Many, yes. All, no. There were more than enough incidents to show that the Federation has pitiful ground combat capabilities.

What about its portable artillery displayed in "The Arena"? Seemed on par with mini-nukes, if I am not mistaken.

To assume that since you don't see Fed tanks, they don't exist is not valid. I bet you don't see Canadian tanks on a daily basis, but that doesn't mean they don't exist.

"False analogy" fallacy. I am not in a warzone, so I obviously don't see tanks. However, we have seen the front lines of Star Trek combat several times during the Dominion War. No tanks, no mortars, no HMGs, no grenades, no close-air support, no artillery, no NBC protection, no preparation of the battlefield, NO GROUND COMBAT ABILITIES beyond those that modern-day police officers might have.

Stop for a second. We did see a mortar. Why wasn't it used in most of the episodes you mentioned? Perhaps for the same reason why pin-point orbital bombardment is never used in SW? Or for the same reason that even kiloton-sized warheads are never used in ground battles?

Truth to be told, he is still right. Just because we haven't seen it does not mean it doesn't exist. It only means that these soldiers didn't have such weapons. We can't, of course, use the weapons until they are shown somewhere, but you cannot categorically make such a sweeping general conclusion from these few examples.

We are talking about a sci-fi universe where screaming infantry charges routinely overrun prepared defenses, and not by sneaking up on them, but by simply OVERCOMING THEM VIA A HEADLONG RUSH. It is a universe where knife-wielding Klingons are actually dangerous. Sorry, but you are simply wrong. There is ample evidence that Federation ground combat capabilities are abysmal.

Fair enough. You are right, the cases that we've seen here are pretty awful. But aren't they nearly as bad as a bunch of rock-throwing teddy bears overcomming an elite "legion" of troopers? Armed and armored, with AT-ST support?

[The Yosemite Bear]

Yeah, kinda bad one that I am agreeing with Elim (at least on Journey To Bable having the Orion ship exceeding C in combat), however that's the ONLY ship ever shown to manuver in combat at warp. And it did it by breaking the rules (overclocking the engines until they burnt out and went boom like something out of TNG). This supports my contention that changing course at warp is not impossible, just that the energy requirements and stress on the nacells are so great that it's "Ill advised"

[Darth Servo]

True. OTOH, what about orbital strikes? Unlike in SW, controlling the high orbitals will give you victory.

Thats because in SW, planets are actually SHIELDED, making orbital bombardment useless. The TWO times the enemy had orbital superiority (TPM, Hoth), they did NOT want massive casualties because they needed key personnel on the opposing side ALIVE (Amidala and Luke respectively).

What about its portable artillery displayed in "The Arena"? Seemed on par with mini-nukes, if I am not mistaken.

You are mistaken. The blast wasn't anywhere near nuclear yeild.

Stop for a second. We did see a mortar. Why wasn't it used in most of the episodes you mentioned? Perhaps for the same reason why pin-point orbital bombardment is never used in SW? Or for the same reason that even kiloton-sized warheads are never used in ground battles?

Are you trying to argue that the Federation is incapable of making a low yield mortar shell? Are you trying to make the Feddies look as stupid as possible?

As for lack of pinpoint bombardment in SW, the Hoth shield eliminated that possibility, not a lack of the capability.

Fair enough. You are right, the cases that we've seen here are pretty awful. But aren't they nearly as bad as a bunch of rock-throwing teddy bears overcomming an elite "legion" of troopers? Armed and armored, with AT-ST support?

1) Where those "teddy bears" demonstrated superior strength to humans (throwing 30 lb boulders around as if they were made out of styrofoam).

2) The "teddy bears" had the element of surprise, superior numbers, superior knowledge of the territory, strategical high ground, ambushes prepared, small size (which makes them harder to hit), natural camouflague coloring, etc.

3) The Stormtroopers were handicapped by direct orders from Vader to capture the rebels ALIVE.

Vader: "Good work commander. Conduct your search and bring [Luke's] companions to me."

The Stormtrooper who gets the drop on Han and Leia does NOT shoot them in the back but instead orders, "Freeze, don't move, hands up".

A similar event happened when Leia first met Wickett.

4) Ewok casualties were VERY heavy and the Stormtroopers were WINNING the battle until Chewie hijacked the AT-ST. THAT is what won the battle for the good guys, not the "teddy bears."

The ground battle of Endor is FAR more complicated than you rabid trekkies think it is.

[Lord of the Farce]

A better question to ask the rabid Trekkies is: Where are the real-life combined arms analogs throughout all that we see of the Dominion War's ground battles, particularly on the front lines like the Siege of AR-558?