Return of the King Discussion Thread (MAJOR SPOILERS!)

[Joe]

Let me offer my two cents on some of the objections made here.

The bad humans are all Arabs, therefore, PJ is a racist:

I will admit that I am not as well-versed in the books as many of you are, but didn't Tolkien want it that way? LoTR was a great book, but it is certainly not untouched by xenophobia. That would make Tolkien a racist, not PJ.

On having self-doubting Aragorn rather than book Aragorn: Don't have much of a problem with this. Static lead characters tend to not be so interesting.

On Arwen in RoTK; agree completely. I thought her part in the story was done well in the first two films, despite departing from the book a good bit (although the her tangent in TTT was taken from Tolkien, just inserted in a different place than he intended, so it didn't bug me), but they completely dropped the ball in this one. It felt like they forgot about her while writing the script then had to go back and find a place to insert her, and I don't think it worked out very well.

That said, it was still undoubtedly a great movie. The worst thing I can say about it is that it's a 14 out of 10 that could have been a 15 out of 10.

Also, about the ghost army, they seemed to be absolutely invincible. If Aragorn had wanted to, couldn't he have taken them to Mordor and slaughtered every last Orc in Middle Earth, or is there a limit on their power of which I am unaware.

And one more thing, from a Final Fantasy fanboy: Did anyone else think "lifestream" when the ghost army entered Minas Tirith? It was a very cool visual, but I immediately though of lifestream when I saw it.

[Daltonator]

Pippin. Sam stood up to Shelob, Merry stabbed the Witch King in the back of the leg, Frodo had to carry the ring through the whole thing. At the battle at the black gate, instead of Pippin showing his worth by taking out a troll(and near getting killed by it), Aragorn is almost killed by a troll and is saved after the ring is destroyed.

Pippin climbed up the tower to light the beacon, then leapt into the flames to save Faramir from Denethor's madness.

[PackMule]

The Hollywood-izing How much did Liv Tyler get paid to play Arwen? Frankly I can't understand peoples problem with the fact that her character was expanded from the book.

So you had no problem with Arwen's life force suddenly out of nowhere being linked to the fate of the ring? Where did that come from, book or not, it was never hinted in the movies at all and smelled of desparetly trying to make Arwen MATTER to the story when she most certainly did not. She was at best a tertiary charcater in the book, sort of "Hey this is Aragorn's love interest" and that was it. To suddenly link her fate to that of the ring smacked of lazy writing to try and make people care and create a very false sense of drama.

And no, she did mostly nothing in the books, Tolkien wasn't writing a Harlequin romance.

I must have misinterpreted that line. I had thought that Elrond had meant that because Arwen had decided to stay that her life was in danger (along with the rest of middle-earth) as long as Sauron and the Ring survived.

If it is actually what you say, then I agree that it was a stupid direction for her character. However I still stand by my point that I believe PJ was right to expand Arwen's role in the films.

[Rye]

Let me offer my two cents on some of the objections made here.

The bad humans are all Arabs, therefore, PJ is a racist:

I will admit that I am not as well-versed in the books as many of you are, but didn't Tolkien want it that way? LoTR was a great book, but it is certainly not untouched by xenophobia. That would make Tolkien a racist, not PJ.

It's not really racism. Sauron took over the hot lands to the south, it's not too much of a stretch to think arabs might be in hot countries is it?It was just to do with where they came from, rather than overt racism.

And one more thing, from a Final Fantasy fanboy: Did anyone else think "lifestream" when the ghost army entered Minas Tirith? It was a very cool visual, but I immediately though of lifestream when I saw it.

I must admit, i thought the exact same thing.

[Ubiquitous]

The 'racist' brigade seem to have forgotton gthe Wild Men from TTT, who were clearly white and clearly stupid and horrible.

[Ted C]

But I think that from a cinematic point of view adding Aragorn's doubt about himself and the race of men in general was excellent character development, because it means that Aragorn has to over come his own fears and doubts. I'll admit that I'm not a big reader of the books. Perhaps someone could explain to me the sort of character development the Aragorn in the books underwent.

Aragorn was torn primarily between his personal quest to reclaim his throne and his duty to help the Fellowship. When he left Rivendell, he planned to travel with the Fellowship as far as Minas Tirith, but he planned to stay there when the Fellowship moved on toward Mordor. With Gandalf's "death", he became the leader of the Fellowship, and he was torn between his two competing responsibilities. When the Fellowship scattered at Amon Sul, he felt that he had somehow failed them, and he had to rebuild his own self-esteem on the quest to save Merry and Pippin.

How much did Liv Tyler get paid to play Arwen? Frankly I can't understand peoples problem with the fact that her character was expanded from the book.

I don't mind them expanding her role some. I had no problem with her replacing Glorfindel (at least until she was given one of Frodo's best moments from Fellowship). I didn't mind the romantic interlude between her and Aragorn, either. I would have had no problem with a romantic reunion at the end of Towers with her delivering Anduril to Aragorn instead of going to the Grey Havens as her father instructed, and I didn't mind seeing her show up in Minas Tirith.

I did have a huge problem with the incredibly long, dull scene in which she "spiritually rescues" Aragorn in TTT and then argues with Elrond, and the insipid "Arwen's fate is linked to the Ring" bit from ROTK was even worse.

[PackMule]

Aragorn was torn primarily between his personal quest to reclaim his throne and his duty to help the Fellowship. When he left Rivendell, he planned to travel with the Fellowship as far as Minas Tirith, but he planned to stay there when the Fellowship moved on toward Mordor. With Gandalf's "death", he became the leader of the Fellowship, and he was torn between his two competing responsibilities. When the Fellowship scattered at Amon Sul, he felt that he had somehow failed them, and he had to rebuild his own self-esteem on the quest to save Merry and Pippin.

Thank you for the clarification, I can see the difference now.

I don't mind them expanding her role some. I had no problem with her replacing Glorfindel (at least until she was given one of Frodo's best moments from Fellowship). I didn't mind the romantic interlude between her and Aragorn, either. I would have had no problem with a romantic reunion at the end of Towers with her delivering Anduril to Aragorn instead of going to the Grey Havens as her father instructed, and I didn't mind seeing her show up in Minas Tirith.

I did have a huge problem with the incredibly long, dull scene in which she "spiritually rescues" Aragorn in TTT and then argues with Elrond, and the insipid "Arwen's fate is linked to the Ring" bit from ROTK was even worse.

I agree with you. Having just come back from seeing the movie again I can see how I misinterpreted Elrond's line. Thinking about it, I really can't understand it. I guess we'll have to wait for the extended edition for an explanation from PJ.

[Crazedwraith]

Great film though i have two small critisisms:
1) Rohan's charge damminit! Cavarly charging on spear walls doesn't work, i know the orks were incompetant and scared by rohan bellowing but still! Crap!! I wanted to see the first wave of rohanins slaughted and the weight of their corpses breaking the spear wall. Also it seemd to much of a slughter considering the facct they thought they were outmanned before they learned about the corsairs. Theodens s[eech to his men about how they couldn't win but were going to try seems pointless when you seem them effortless charging down half of mordor's host. It wouldn't seem bad if they had just swept down on them but no they stopped and started roraring at them and gave them time to form a battle line.

2) The re-forging the blade bit. This should hsave been put in the fellowship. The Elrond/Aragorn meeting is cheesey. How do the elves get everywhere so fast? Elrond going all the way from Rivendell to give Aragorn the sword, the elves in TTT why can they get palaces instantly whil amin characters take whole films traveling??

[Ted C]

Great film though i have two small critisisms:
1) Rohan's charge damminit! Cavarly charging on spear walls doesn't work, i know the orks were incompetant and scared by rohan bellowing but still! Crap!! I wanted to see the first wave of rohanins slaughted and the weight of their corpses breaking the spear wall. Also it seemd to much of a slughter considering the facct they thought they were outmanned before they learned about the corsairs. Theodens s[eech to his men about how they couldn't win but were going to try seems pointless when you seem them effortless charging down half of mordor's host. It wouldn't seem bad if they had just swept down on them but no they stopped and started roraring at them and gave them time to form a battle line.

Yeah, I wasn't too thrilled with that either. In the novel, it was a surprise flank charge. The first sounding of the Rohirrim horns was the signal to charge, and they basically hit the orc reserves before they had time to prepare. They took to doing what a cavalry force should do, harrassing the enemy flanks and rear. Their attack forced the Lord of the Nazgul to abandon his triumphant march through the city gate to deal with them.

2) The re-forging the blade bit. This should hsave been put in the fellowship. The Elrond/Aragorn meeting is cheesey. How do the elves get everywhere so fast? Elrond going all the way from Rivendell to give Aragorn the sword, the elves in TTT why can they get palaces instantly whil amin characters take whole films traveling??

Actually, I think Arwen should have been the delivery girl. She could have shown up out of the blue, having disobeyed daddy's orders and come to Aragorn with the reforged sword instead of going to the Grey Havens. It would have been a much nicer way to work her into the film than what they did.

[SylasGaunt]

I don't think the Orcs the Rohirrim hit had much in the way of a spear wall (I recall mostly reeeeally short ones.. certainly nothing like the one the Uruks put out in TTT)

[j1j2j3]

Whats this Gandalf / Saruman showdown that people keep talking about?

What happens in the books that is omitted in ROTK?

[El Moose Monstero]

Whats this Gandalf / Saruman showdown that people keep talking about?

What happens in the books that is omitted in ROTK?

My advice is to go read them, even if they arent normally your sort of books. There's a lot of difference in them, too much to really start recapping here. Then read the Silmarillion. It's a pain in the arse to get stuck into but it makes it all worth while.

[j1j2j3]

Whats this Gandalf / Saruman showdown that people keep talking about?

What happens in the books that is omitted in ROTK?

My advice is to go read them, even if they arent normally your sort of books. There's a lot of difference in them, too much to really start recapping here. Then read the Silmarillion. It's a pain in the arse to get stuck into but it makes it all worth while.

I know it's difficult to summarize it but could you give me a brief summary?

[2000AD]

There now follows a brief statement by 2000AD to describe how absolutely fucking, jaw dropingly, amazing this film is:

GODLIKE!

*Damnit we need bigger fonts!*

[Robert Treder]

It has some of the same problems as the first two, most notably totally uninteresting and unintimidating bad guys. The orcs are stupid; I don't know why they think that a bunch of bumbling idiots with rusty, rickety weapons are scarier than intelligent, well-armed bad guys.

Orcs are supposed to be stupid. They were created in mockery of the elves, but there are a whole fucking lot of them, which is why they're so effective.

I'm not saying that Peter Jackson should have changed the way they are, I'm saying that Tolkien shouldn't have written them like fucking dumbasses in the first place. The orcs are number one on the list of lamest fictional villains of all time. They only serve to cheapen the heroes' struggles.

Why didn't Gandalf just light the torches if he wanted them lit? Why get Pippin to do it for him? Surely a magician the likes of Gandalf can light some dry sticks on fire...

Gandalf had already pissed off Denethor. I doubt he would have liked to do so more.

Give me a break. Denethor is going to know who did it, and you think he's not going to figure out that Gandalf told Pippin to light the torch? Denethor said it himself, he's not as stupid as he looks. No matter how the torch gets lit, Denethor will know that it was because Gandalf wanted it done. And all Gandalf had to do was look at it funny, unless he's a lot less powerful than we've all been led to believe.

The fact that a whole shitload of orcs killed themselves over Frodo's mithril was both a huge fucking writing copout and an example of how completely fucking double plus un-good the orcs are as bad guys. This shit is straight out of Duck Tales.

Isn't it how it happened in the books? Orcs are incredibly greedy and territorial.

I don't care how it happened in the books. That doesn't change the fact that it's a total copout, and further reinforces the fact that the orcs are incredibly lame.

The fact that a whole shitload of orcs killed themselves over Frodo's mithril was both a huge fucking writing copout and an example of how completely fucking double plus un-good the orcs are as bad guys. This shit is straight out of Duck Tales.

It's also straight out of the novel. Cirith Ungol was jointly manned by orcs from Barad-Dur and Minas Morgul, and they never got along well in the first place. The fight over Frodo's mithril shirt was all "off screen" in the book, but it pretty much took place as depicted in the movie.

Once again, who cares what it was like in the books? Whether Jackson was the idiot or Tolkien was the idiot, there was an idiot involved.

[Stravo]

Just as a sidenote the teasers and trailers shown at my theater during the midnight show were GODAWFUL (The Butterfly Effect, I Robot, Win a date with blah blah) but the one thing that drew the loudest most vocal ire of the audience I was with was the commercial for the little girl going into the pool alone and a very serious voice "Just explain to your parents that you were too busy getting high" There were hisses, catcalls and shouted out exclamations that let me know just how much they despised this commercial.

Also that fat walking pimple Michael Moore was at my screening with that filthy cap and the jeans and a plaid shirt. He looked bloated and disgusting but in his defense he moved among the people and was very comfortable fielding stuff from fans and interacting with them. Unlike other celebrirties I've seen.

[2000AD]

On the Orc Fight over the mithril shirt, i think it should be pointed out that the first two did fight over the shirt, but it then spilled over into the whole rivalry thing between the different clans.
It's like at a football match. The two opposing groups of fans are perfectly willing to sit next to each other and enjoy the game, but as soon as someone makes a stupid comment about who beat who in the cup final they're at each others throats.

Also if i'm not mistaken in the movie didn't they replace on of the ork sides with Uruk Hai?

[Ted C]

On the Orc Fight over the mithril shirt, i think it should be pointed out that the first two did fight over the shirt, but it then spilled over into the whole rivalry thing between the different clans.
It's like at a football match. The two opposing groups of fans are perfectly willing to sit next to each other and enjoy the game, but as soon as someone makes a stupid comment about who beat who in the cup final they're at each others throats.

Also if i'm not mistaken in the movie didn't they replace on of the ork sides with Uruk Hai?

The Minas Morgul orcs looked like Uruk Hai, but those were supposedly creations of Saruman. Perhaps the Witch King had a parallel project going.

[CJvR]

I know it's difficult to summarize it but could you give me a brief summary?

IIRC Gandalf offers Saruman to rejoin the goodguys. Saruman refuses and when he fails to sweettalk his way to victory goes back inside Ortanc. Gandalf then orders him back outside and breaks his staff. Grimma throws the Palantir at Gandalf, who remarks that there probably wasn't anything of greater value he could have thrown at them. Treebeard is left to guard Saruman until he surrenders the Ortanc.

[PackMule]

2) The re-forging the blade bit. This should hsave been put in the fellowship. The Elrond/Aragorn meeting is cheesey. How do the elves get everywhere so fast? Elrond going all the way from Rivendell to give Aragorn the sword, the elves in TTT why can they get palaces instantly whil amin characters take whole films traveling??

I found it easier to not even think about the timing beccause it seemed so screwed up in places. It seems to me that the Rohirrim only took 2 days to reach Minas Tirith, not 3 days as was stated in the film.

Likewise also found it really hard to gauge numbers. Like with the elves in TTT fighting at Helm's Deep. At some times it seemed like there was only 100 of them, and at other times it seemed like thousands.

Just as a sidenote the teasers and trailers shown at my theater during the midnight show were GODAWFUL (The Butterfly Effect, I Robot, Win a date with blah blah) but the one thing that drew the loudest most vocal ire of the audience I was with was the commercial for the little girl going into the pool alone and a very serious voice "Just explain to your parents that you were too busy getting high" There were hisses, catcalls and shouted out exclamations that let me know just how much they despised this commercial.

Those sound somewhat scary .... We had Spiderman 2, The Last Samuri and Master and Commander .... and this really evil PlayStation ad where people are climbing on top of each other to cover a skyscraper or something. That disturbed me to no end.

[2000AD]

Those sound somewhat scary .... We had Spiderman 2, The Last Samuri and Master and Commander .... and this really evil PlayStation ad where people are climbing on top of each other to cover a skyscraper or something. That disturbed me to no end.

Spiderman 2 (looked cool) , Looney Tunes movie (Looked shit), Thunderbirds (looked cool too) and i'm pretty sure there was something else too, on top of the regular TV ads.

Back on topic the only thing i didn't really like about the film was the ending, which just seemed to take too long.

[Robert Treder]

Hell, even if ROTK turned out to be four hours of Barney masturbating, it would have been worth it just for the Spider-Man 2 trailer. It was extra-fine.

We also had a trailer for Hidalgo, which looked kickass, and a trailer for Butterfly Effect, which looked lame. There was a trailer for I, Robot, which looked lame, and some other bullshit.
As for the commercials, at the AMC Mercado, they always have one of those "respect copyrights" ads, and they always get booed, which is nice. And there was a Final Fantasy Crystal Chronicles ad, which I booed, but a few people cheered.

[Ted C]

Those sound somewhat scary .... We had Spiderman 2, The Last Samuri and Master and Commander .... and this really evil PlayStation ad where people are climbing on top of each other to cover a skyscraper or something. That disturbed me to no end.

I got Spiderman 2 (mixed feelings), The Punisher (looks good), The Chronicles of Riddick (intriguing), and The Butterfly Effect (snore).

[Lonestar]

I saw the Prisoner of Azkaban Trailer. Even if the Directer is different, I have the feeling we're in good hands.

[Vendetta]

I will admit that I am not as well-versed in the books as many of you are, but didn't Tolkien want it that way? LoTR was a great book, but it is certainly not untouched by xenophobia. That would make Tolkien a racist, not PJ.

Actually, the descriptions of the Haradrim and Easterlings usually mention that they're proud and brave, they just happen to be on the wrong side.

I'm saying that Tolkien shouldn't have written them like fucking dumbasses in the first place.

The orcs represent the same kind of military attitude that sent tens of thousands to die on the Somme, and regarded it as some kind of glorius battle (leftover colonialist shite, basically). Remember, Tolkien fought on the Somme, (though his regiment was sent to the trenches a week after the first disastrous offensive) There's a pretty damn good reason for them being like they are.