Return of the King Discussion Thread (MAJOR SPOILERS!)

Vendetta · Post by **Vendetta** » 2003-12-19 09:31pm

Incidentally, the trailers I saw were so rubbish I've forgotten the first two.

The third one, however, was Paycheck, which is one of my favourite Phillip K. Dick stories. I doubt the film will be as good (i suspect it will extend the story beyond the original's scope to poor effect), but still, it may be worth a gander.

Anarchist Bunny · Post by **Anarchist Bunny** » 2003-12-20 01:50am

I got utterly fucked over with the previews. Mask 2, Butterfly Effect, and some other movie I can't even remember.

Jadeite · Post by **Jadeite** » 2003-12-20 02:02am

Previews I saw were: I, Robot

, Mask 2, Butterfly Effect, Prisoner of Azkaban, and the Punisher.

Anyway, I was disappointed by ROTK. The siege of Minas Tirith was disappointing, since the orcs field that many troops and more than half of them stand around in formation through the entire battle until the Rohirrim charge and then they scatter like flies. The Last Samurai had a more entertaining battle then that, and it had some pretty fucking stupid infantry tactics. Legolas taking down the oliphant was just ridiculous, and the Witch King died too quickly, he took a few swings at Eowen and then got his incompentent ass stabbed. The only somewhat intelligent villian seemed to be that ork general, the one who sidestepped the boulder.

It felt like some of the characters were dumbed down for plot purposes, including in the novel itself, and the movie should have ended with the ship sailing away, I actually heard frustrated sighs through the theater when it kept going. Another thing that just sort of annoyed me a bit is that for someone who hasn't read the books, the eagles showing up wouldn't make much sense, since they never explained why they were there.

It could have been worse of course, I give it a 5 out of 10.

Jim Raynor · Post by **Jim Raynor** » 2003-12-20 03:14am

Stravo wrote:Just as a sidenote the teasers and trailers shown at my theater during the midnight show were GODAWFUL (The Butterfly Effect, I Robot, Win a date with blah blah) but the one thing that drew the loudest most vocal ire of the audience I was with was the commercial for the little girl going into the pool alone and a very serious voice "Just explain to your parents that you were too busy getting high" There were hisses, catcalls and shouted out exclamations that let me know just how much they despised this commercial.

Did you see The Son of the Mask trailer? All the other crap you mentioned pales in comparison to it. I never wanted to do physical harm to an infant until I saw that trailer.

zombie84 · Post by **zombie84** » 2003-12-20 12:02pm

My showing had a preview for the Tales of Riddick or whatever its called--that movie looks pretty fucking cool if you ask me.

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2003-12-20 12:30pm

Jim Raynor wrote:
Stravo wrote:Just as a sidenote the teasers and trailers shown at my theater during the midnight show were GODAWFUL (The Butterfly Effect, I Robot, Win a date with blah blah) but the one thing that drew the loudest most vocal ire of the audience I was with was the commercial for the little girl going into the pool alone and a very serious voice "Just explain to your parents that you were too busy getting high" There were hisses, catcalls and shouted out exclamations that let me know just how much they despised this commercial.
Did you see The Son of the Mask trailer? All the other crap you mentioned pales in comparison to it. I never wanted to do physical harm to an infant until I saw that trailer.

Thanks for reminding me. I thought I had blotted it out of my mind now I must go brillo my brain.

Robert Treder · Post by **Robert Treder** » 2003-12-20 04:02pm

Vendetta wrote:The orcs represent the same kind of military attitude that sent tens of thousands to die on the Somme, and regarded it as some kind of glorius battle (leftover colonialist shite, basically). Remember, Tolkien fought on the Somme, (though his regiment was sent to the trenches a week after the first disastrous offensive) There's a pretty damn good reason for them being like they are.

Bullshit. The soldiers at the Somme were intelligent, well-armed human beings. Sure, they employed some relatively mindless tactics, but they were eighteen times more intimidating than a bunch of drooling, slapstick orcs.

I mean, the Gondorians and Rohanians in the movie are just running like crazy at the bad guys too, but they manage to be engaging, compelling characters.

I also just thought of something: can the army of the dead be hurt by anything other than the Narsil Sword? I mean, is it like they can attack you, but you can't attack them?
Because if it is, Elrond's sorry ass should have thought of his little deus ex machina hella days ago, so that he could have forged the sword and sent Aragorn to the ghost cave to recruit the dead guys way back in Fellowship. Then Aragorn could have told the ghosts, "I will hold your oath fulfilled when you kill all of Sauron's forces." They could zip over to Isengard, fuck Saruman up, zip over to Mordor, fuck Sauron up, and then Aragorn could have walked into Mt. Doom with Frodo, the whole saga done in one movie.
It would have been less interesting, but I'm sure Frodo and co. would prefer that to all the shit they went through.

CaptainChewbacca · Post by **CaptainChewbacca** » 2003-12-20 05:02pm

If you want to go REALLY fast, give the ring to an Eagle, and have thirty or forty run interference with the Nazgul while he drops it into Mt. Doom.

Don't overthink, just enjoy.

Vendetta · Post by **Vendetta** » 2003-12-20 05:26pm

Bullshit. The soldiers at the Somme were intelligent, well-armed human beings. Sure, they employed some relatively mindless tactics, but they were eighteen times more intimidating than a bunch of drooling, slapstick orcs.

The soldiers were. The generals who sent them into the guns, time and again? the people that called it some kind of "great" war? It's about that kind of attitude, revelling in all the negative aspects of war, that's what you see in Orcs.

I also just thought of something: can the army of the dead be hurt by anything other than the Narsil Sword? I mean, is it like they can attack you, but you can't attack them?

In the book, it doesn't appear that they can actually physically interact with anything.

They just make enemies soil their trousers and run away.

Aragorn uses them to steal the Corsairs' ships and uses the ships to ferry live troops that had been held back by Gondor's lands to the south to the battlefield.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-12-20 07:43pm

Vendetta wrote:
The soldiers were. The generals who sent them into the guns, time and again?

The generals did not know the situation on the front, it was rare that commanders willingly ordered there troops into the kind of meet grinder seen on some sector of the Somme. Though in other sectors troops advanced soo quickly they where only stopped by there own artillery barrage still impacting on the next objective.

the people that called it some kind of "great" war?

Everyone called it the Great War

HemlockGrey · Post by **HemlockGrey** » 2003-12-20 10:36pm

If this movie does not claim Best Picture, Hollywood will burn.

Raven · Post by **Raven** » 2003-12-20 10:42pm

Some questions about LOTR:

Nazgul:

- What are their powers or abilities (if any)? Their screech appears to incapacitate people. Is that really an effect of the Nazgul, or an exaggerated reaction to the fear they inspire?

- Are they somehow indestructable/unkillable? Other than the Witch King of Angmar, they seemed that way. It didn't look like Aragorn had a very hard time dealing with multiple wraiths on Weathertop. Yet despite the slashing and flamage, all the Nazgul survived. Cut to Arwen and the river: tons of water crushing them didn't prove fatal.

- Is the "no man can kill him" a mythical hyperbole, like in Macbeth? Or does it literally refer to some magical protection: i.e., he could survive a tac nuke going off in his face as long as whoever pressed the button was male?

- Are there more, or just the nine? If the rings are supposed to turn people into wraiths, why isn't Gollum one? Or does the One Ring not do that? What about people stabbed by Morgul blades? Surely Frodo wasn't the first person to EVER be affected by these weapons... and not everyone is going to be as lucky as Frodo.

- What's that beam of green light that shoots out of Minas Morgul? Is it some kind of beacon? A signal to begin the attack? An attempt to intimidate Gondor? The Witch King of Angmar watching porno?

- 1 on 1: the Witch King, dismounted as he was before he fought Eowyn, vs. a troll, the same kind the fellowship fought in Moria, or the one that almost killed Aragorn at the gates of Mordor. Who wins?
Now replace the troll with a balrog. Who wins? Replace the balrog with Gandalf. Who wins?

Gandalf:

- What powers does he have? Observed (in the movies): making fireworks explode out the back of his cart (isn't he supposed to have some magic fire ring or something?), some form of mental manipulation ("BILBO BAGGINS! I am trying to help you...")TK battle with Saruman, talking to moths to summon eagles, attemtping to counter Saruman's avalanching, generating light from his staff, forming a force field bubble to deflect the balrog's flaming sword, breaking a stone bridge ("YOU SHALL NOT PASS!"), heating Aragorn's sword and forcing him to drop it, some kind of light from his staff that had no visible direct physical effects, but drove off the Nazgul... am I missing anything?

- Why does he ask Pippen to light the fire? He's demonstrated heat generating ability before. Is it simply to boost Pip's morale?

- Gandalf can make fireworks. Why doesn't he whip up a pyrotechnic surprise in defense of Minas Tirith?

Elves, Dwarfs, and minor races:

- What's the deal with the different elf kingdoms? There's Rivendell, Lorien, and some other one Legolas is supposed to be from. What is the relationship these cities have to each other? To the different human political or social entities?

- What does Elrond mean when he says "My people are leaving these shores.", and the whole deal with the elves departing into the sea? (With Frodo and Gandalf.) Where are they going? Are all the elves going, or just Elrond's clan?

- Moria is the dwarven equivalent to, say, Rivendell or Lorien, right? An enclave of dwarves?

- Just how isolationist are these dwarves? That was a pretty good sized city... they were wiped out by goblins. Nobody knew? When Helm's Deep was in trouble, the elves came. Not even Gimli knew.

- How do dwarves get in/out? Do they know how to open the "speak friend and enter" door?

- Who buried Balin? He was tombed! I don't think the orcs would take the trouble to carve a tomb for the leader of their enemies. Were there dwarves the survived the attack? If so, how did they escape? If they somehow found a way out, why didn't they send for reinforcements, or at least told anyone about the battle?

- The orcs that wiped out the dwarves of Moria: were they affiliated with Sauron or Saruman?

- Did the balrog interact with the dwarves or orcs in the mines? The orcs knew of its existance, and ran like hell when they saw it coming. The dwarves mention something about it as well, so they at least know about it. But did the balrog play any part in the dwarf/orc battle?

- What is the relationship of orcs to Sauron? When the ring was destroyed, they all broke and ran.

Sauron and The Ring/s:

- What happened to the 3 rings given to the elves, and 7 to the dwarves? Why aren't there elven or dwarven Nazgul running around?

- What would happen if Sauron got ahold of the One Ring again? It wouldn't be totally impossible to defeat him, right? After all, he had the ring the first time around, and that didn't stop the human/elf alliance from marching up to Mordor and Isildur from chopping off his hand.

- What powers would the ring grant to a non-Sauron person wearing it? Invisibility is kinda neat, but not very useful. This particular cloaking device obscures your vision of the real world and seems to stress the wielder mentally. Not to mention, putting it on means you have one Eye of Sauron and nine Nazgul instantly after your ass.

- So why did Gandalf fear to take the ring; Galadriel thought she could rule the world with it; and Boromir wanted to use it to help Gondor fight Mordor?

- If, according to Elrond, Sauron's gaze pierces shadow and flesh, (and could apparently locate the ring in Rivendell), how come it can't spot Frodo and Sam hiding behind some rocks?

- Now we all know that Sauron wants the ring back. But is there any self-preservative urgency in that? Does he know about the plot to destroy the ring? How come that ridiculous passage INTO the volcano isn't guarded? Why is it allowed to even EXIST at all?

- Is Sauron capable of assuming physical form without the ring? And if he is, is he unkillable without destroying the ring?

Robert Treder · Post by **Robert Treder** » 2003-12-20 11:16pm

I have some more questions.

What happened to the Dwarfs? Why did no Dwarf armies ever help anybody ever?

I take it the Rivendell and Lothlorien Elves were all jumping off the edge of the world, but what about the Mirkwood Elves? Why didn't they come to help Prince Legolas? Were they also committing Hari-Kari, or were they not politically amicable to the ring-destroying mission?

What is the deal with those ghosts? Can they hurt the living, or do they just scare them? The movie seemed to show them fucking the orcs up. Was that accurate?
If they can't harm the living, then why didn't the orcs realize this after a few minutes, and continue on sieging?
If they can harm the living, can they in turn be harmed by the living through conventional means?

Thanks in advance to anybody taking the time to answer my questions.

phongn · Post by **phongn** » 2003-12-20 11:55pm

Robert Treder wrote:I have some more questions.

What happened to the Dwarfs? Why did no Dwarf armies ever help anybody ever?

I take it the Rivendell and Lothlorien Elves were all jumping off the edge of the world, but what about the Mirkwood Elves? Why didn't they come to help Prince Legolas? Were they also committing Hari-Kari, or were they not politically amicable to the ring-destroying mission?

IIRC, they were all busy smacking down another expeditionary force from Mordor.

What is the deal with those ghosts? Can they hurt the living, or do they just scare them? The movie seemed to show them fucking the orcs up. Was that accurate?

No, they just scared all the pirates, at which point Aragon loaded up the newly-captured ships and sailed off to kick some ass. The Dead did not relieve the Siege of Minas Tirith as seen in the movie.

CaptainChewbacca · Post by **CaptainChewbacca** » 2003-12-20 11:58pm

Cracks knuckles Here we go...

Raven wrote:Some questions about LOTR:

Nazgul:

- What are their powers or abilities (if any)? Their screech appears to incapacitate people. Is that really an effect of the Nazgul, or an exaggerated reaction to the fear they inspire?

- Are they somehow indestructable/unkillable? Other than the Witch King of Angmar, they seemed that way. It didn't look like Aragorn had a very hard time dealing with multiple wraiths on Weathertop. Yet despite the slashing and flamage, all the Nazgul survived. Cut to Arwen and the river: tons of water crushing them didn't prove fatal.

They are immortal and unkillable by most means. They are tireless and bound to the will of Sauron. They can "smell" the ring when it is near. They were driven off by Aragorn because he was Isildur's Heir and it wasn't time to face him yet.

- Is the "no man can kill him" a mythical hyperbole, like in Macbeth? Or does it literally refer to some magical protection: i.e., he could survive a tac nuke going off in his face as long as whoever pressed the button was male?

Hyperbole, like "invincible until killed". It was a legend thing.

- Are there more, or just the nine? If the rings are supposed to turn people into wraiths, why isn't Gollum one? Or does the One Ring not do that? What about people stabbed by Morgul blades? Surely Frodo wasn't the first person to EVER be affected by these weapons... and not everyone is going to be as lucky as Frodo.

The Nine are the greater wraiths, the only ones created by the rings of men. Those stabbed with Morgul blades become lesser wraiths, bound to serve the one who killed them. Frodo would have become a lesser wraith.

- What's that beam of green light that shoots out of Minas Morgul? Is it some kind of beacon? A signal to begin the attack? An attempt to intimidate Gondor? The Witch King of Angmar watching porno?

Movie special effect, pay it no mind.

- 1 on 1: the Witch King, dismounted as he was before he fought Eowyn, vs. a troll, the same kind the fellowship fought in Moria, or the one that almost killed Aragorn at the gates of Mordor. Who wins?
Now replace the troll with a balrog. Who wins? Replace the balrog with Gandalf. Who wins?

I don't do vs.

Gandalf:

- What powers does he have? Observed (in the movies): making fireworks explode out the back of his cart (isn't he supposed to have some magic fire ring or something?), some form of mental manipulation ("BILBO BAGGINS! I am trying to help you...")TK battle with Saruman, talking to moths to summon eagles, attemtping to counter Saruman's avalanching, generating light from his staff, forming a force field bubble to deflect the balrog's flaming sword, breaking a stone bridge ("YOU SHALL NOT PASS!"), heating Aragorn's sword and forcing him to drop it, some kind of light from his staff that had no visible direct physical effects, but drove off the Nazgul... am I missing anything?

Didn't miss much. He is deathless, though he can be killed. Gandalf has the power of 'getting things done'. When something needs done, he can do it. He weilds the power of the Fire Ring as wll as the powers of good/light given by the gods.

- Why does he ask Pippen to light the fire? He's demonstrated heat generating ability before. Is it simply to boost Pip's morale?

More movie hype.

- Gandalf can make fireworks. Why doesn't he whip up a pyrotechnic surprise in defense of Minas Tirith?

My guess would be not enough time or no proper materials. Denethor wasn't exactly helpful.

Elves, Dwarfs, and minor races:

- What's the deal with the different elf kingdoms? There's Rivendell, Lorien, and some other one Legolas is supposed to be from. What is the relationship these cities have to each other? To the different human political or social entities?

Lorien, Rivendell, Mirkwood, and the Grey Havens are the elf kingdoms, Hollin is a now-empty kingdom. They keep to themselves, help each other in times of war, and don't do much with the humans, although Mirkwood elves are more outgoing, with some even living at Dale with the lake-men.

- What does Elrond mean when he says "My people are leaving these shores.", and the whole deal with the elves departing into the sea? (With Frodo and Gandalf.) Where are they going? Are all the elves going, or just Elrond's clan?

All elves are leaving eventually to the lands of the gods beyond the western sea.

- Moria is the dwarven equivalent to, say, Rivendell or Lorien, right? An enclave of dwarves?

It doesn't compare. It was one of the greatest of the dwarven Kingdoms. Compare it to Lorien

- Just how isolationist are these dwarves? That was a pretty good sized city... they were wiped out by goblins. Nobody knew? When Helm's Deep was in trouble, the elves came. Not even Gimli knew.

The Balrog was awoken long ago and the dwarves fled. About forty years before the War of the Ring, Gloin took maybe 200 dwarves to re-settle the city and kind of jump-start Moria again, since it is the only place Mithril comes from. Communication ceased maybe 6 months before the Council of Elrond. That's why Gimli was there.

The dwarves ARE isolationist, but not overly so. The Iron Hills are well known, and the occasional dwarf can be seen in Bree or the Shire on his way to the Blue Hills. Their greatest city now is Erebor, the Lonely Mountain, where thousands of dwarves live and trade with humans. In the future, Helm's Deep will be a great dwarven city as the caves are developed by the dwarves.

- How do dwarves get in/out? Do they know how to open the "speak friend and enter" door?

No one went in-out the west gate, they were too busy developing and re-taking eastern Moria. And you don't have to speak the words to get out the door, only in.

- Who buried Balin? He was tombed! I don't think the orcs would take the trouble to carve a tomb for the leader of their enemies. Were there dwarves the survived the attack? If so, how did they escape? If they somehow found a way out, why didn't they send for reinforcements, or at least told anyone about the battle?

Balin was put in a tomb by some remaining dwarves after his death. When they read his journal it says "They have taken the bridge, there is no way out." They tried to get out to the west, but the monster got a few of them.

- The orcs that wiped out the dwarves of Moria: were they affiliated with Sauron or Saruman?

Those were actually mostly goblins, which thrive in the Misty Mountains. Their kingdom is near Moria.

- Did the balrog interact with the dwarves or orcs in the mines? The orcs knew of its existance, and ran like hell when they saw it coming. The dwarves mention something about it as well, so they at least know about it. But did the balrog play any part in the dwarf/orc battle?

The Balrog, Durin's Bane, was locked in a cell during the first age deep underground, or was trapped there. When mining dwarves dug into his cell, it got out and drove away all the dwarves of Moria. My guess is it didn't want to go outside without its master, Morgoth, so it stayed in the deeps, eating the occasional goblin or orc once the dwarves ran out.

- What is the relationship of orcs to Sauron? When the ring was destroyed, they all broke and ran.

Orcs were created by Morgoth, Sauron's master. They serve him like he was their god, and when he was destroyed they had nothing. If you'll note, they ran when the ground started collapsing.

Sauron and The Ring/s:

- What happened to the 3 rings given to the elves, and 7 to the dwarves? Why aren't there elven or dwarven Nazgul running around?

The elves made the three elven rings, and they weren't corrupted by Sauron. Elrond has the ring of water, Galadriel the ring of Adamant, and Gandalf the ring of Fire. They can do some good works, but the One Ring would have power over them. The dwarven rings gave their owners great wealth and smithcraft. Four were lost or destroyed by dragonfire, and Sauron reclaimed the other three by his minions. The last was the Ring of Thror, taken from him in Dol Goldur just a few years before Bilbo found the One Ring.

- What would happen if Sauron got ahold of the One Ring again? It wouldn't be totally impossible to defeat him, right? After all, he had the ring the first time around, and that didn't stop the human/elf alliance from marching up to Mordor and Isildur from chopping off his hand.

There were a LOT more elves and much better Men around back then. Gondor and Rohan together had only maybe 10,000 men to Sauron's 100,000, and the Elves had no large armies. It would have gotten very difficult, especially with Sauron unmaking the works of the three elven rings.

- What powers would the ring grant to a non-Sauron person wearing it? Invisibility is kinda neat, but not very useful. This particular cloaking device obscures your vision of the real world and seems to stress the wielder mentally. Not to mention, putting it on means you have one Eye of Sauron and nine Nazgul instantly after your ass.

It amplifies what you have. It gives you the power to influence others and to make your will happen. Its also remarkably corrupting. It isn't a power in itself but a key to much power.

- So why did Gandalf fear to take the ring; Galadriel thought she could rule the world with it; and Boromir wanted to use it to help Gondor fight Mordor?

That's just it. Galadriel would rule the world with it. A dark and terrible reign to "set things right". The ring amplifies power, and anyone that took the ring would be so powerful as to be corrupted by its nature and become as evil as Sauron. Boromir wanted it because he thought it was a weapon, but its greatest value to good came as it was destroyed.

- If, according to Elrond, Sauron's gaze pierces shadow and flesh, (and could apparently locate the ring in Rivendell), how come it can't spot Frodo and Sam hiding behind some rocks?

He wasn't really looking.

- Now we all know that Sauron wants the ring back. But is there any self-preservative urgency in that? Does he know about the plot to destroy the ring? How come that ridiculous passage INTO the volcano isn't guarded? Why is it allowed to even EXIST at all?

It exists because maybe he wants to make another ring. Sauron made it as a tool to enfore your will and your power. It didn't occur to him that anyone who had that kind of power in their posession would destroy it.

- Is Sauron capable of assuming physical form without the ring? And if he is, is he unkillable without destroying the ring?

No.

CaptainChewbacca · Post by **CaptainChewbacca** » 2003-12-21 12:01am

Robert Treder wrote:I have some more questions.

What happened to the Dwarfs? Why did no Dwarf armies ever help anybody ever?

I take it the Rivendell and Lothlorien Elves were all jumping off the edge of the world, but what about the Mirkwood Elves? Why didn't they come to help Prince Legolas? Were they also committing Hari-Kari, or were they not politically amicable to the ring-destroying mission?

The army Sauron sent to Gondor had a twin, equally powerful, sent north to the Lonely Mountain and Dale. There an army of Dwarves and Mirkwood Elves (Legolas' kin) were fighting it out big time during the last day. When the Ring was destroyed, those armies broke and ran.

Its like Midway in WWII. Japan was attacking Alaska and French Polynesia at the same time, but their main thrust failed, so they had to drop back.

Demiurge · Post by **Demiurge** » 2003-12-21 12:12am

CaptainChewbacca wrote:
- What's that beam of green light that shoots out of Minas Morgul? Is it some kind of beacon? A signal to begin the attack? An attempt to intimidate Gondor? The Witch King of Angmar watching porno?
Movie special effect, pay it no mind.

There was a signal sent from the tower as the host of Morgul left the gate in the Two Towers book. I would prefer the flash of lightning from the book instead of the green glowing shit from the movie.

CJvR · Post by **CJvR** » 2003-12-21 05:27am

It exists because maybe he wants to make another ring.
Sauron was a master craftsman, once Aule's greatest servant and he probably used the the place for all types of works. It was also the very heart of his power. Inside Orodruin all other magics failed and Saurons will reigned supreme, none would have been able to destroy the ring there. Not Isildur not Frodo, it required an uncontrolled brawl at the edge of the cracks of Doom to destroy the ring by accident since it intentional destruction by anyone would have been impossible.

HemlockGrey · Post by **HemlockGrey** » 2003-12-21 11:23am

I loved the film. It is far and away the best of the trilogy.

Lonestar · Post by **Lonestar** » 2003-12-21 04:35pm

Wew! Captain Chewbacca, you are knowledgable of all things Tolkien.

Re: The Attack on the Dale, was that something JRR wrote, or was it something his son published?

Post by **Dalton** » 2003-12-21 05:29pm

Lonestar wrote:Wew! Captain Chewbacca, you are knowledgable of all things Tolkien.

Re: The Attack on the Dale, was that something JRR wrote, or was it something his son published?

I believe it was mentioned later on in the book. As I recall, both the Lord of Dale and the King under the Mountain were killed defending their lands.

Vendetta · Post by **Vendetta** » 2003-12-21 05:38pm

It's in the appendices

Post by **Dalton** » 2003-12-21 05:43pm

CaptainChewbacca wrote:Hyperbole, like "invincible until killed". It was a legend thing.

More of a prophecy, from what I've read in the Silmarillion. Remember, no man killed the witch king: He was destroyed by a hobbit and a woman.

CaptainChewbacca wrote:
- Why does he ask Pippen to light the fire? He's demonstrated heat generating ability before. Is it simply to boost Pip's morale?
More movie hype.

I believe Gandalf needs to physically be able to touch an object to set it on fire.

CaptainChewbacca wrote:The Balrog was awoken long ago and the dwarves fled. About forty years before the War of the Ring, Gloin took maybe 200 dwarves to re-settle the city and kind of jump-start Moria again, since it is the only place Mithril comes from. Communication ceased maybe 6 months before the Council of Elrond. That's why Gimli was there.

This is wrong. The only Dwarves from The Hobbit that went back to Moria were Balin, Oin and Ori. Gloin remained at Erebor and was at the Council of Elrond.

CaptainChewbacca wrote:The dwarves ARE isolationist, but not overly so. The Iron Hills are well known, and the occasional dwarf can be seen in Bree or the Shire on his way to the Blue Hills. Their greatest city now is Erebor, the Lonely Mountain, where thousands of dwarves live and trade with humans. In the future, Helm's Deep will be a great dwarven city as the caves are developed by the dwarves.

I think it'll be more of a dwarven Mecca than anything else.

CaptainChewbacca · Post by **CaptainChewbacca** » 2003-12-21 06:14pm

My bad on Gloin, I meant to say Balin. I don't know how populated the Glittering Caves become, but there's a lot of trade between them and Gondor, and there's enough dwarves for Gimli to become the "Lord of the Glittering Caverns".

Not as many as Erebor, but probably more than the Blue Mountains.

And remember, in the movie Gandalf made Aragorn's sword glow red-hot without touching it.

On Caradhras, I believe he just 'zapped' a flame into being on the campfire.

Crazedwraith · Post by **Crazedwraith** » 2003-12-21 06:55pm

CaptainChewbacca wrote: And remember, in the movie Gandalf made Aragorn's sword glow red-hot without touching it. On Caradhras, I believe he just 'zapped' a flame into being on the campfire.

Actually i don't rember that? Which film and when did that happen?