The Katana Fleet

[Joe]

I was just thinking...if the Imperial fleet is so huge, why was Thrawn so eager to acquire the Katana Fleet in Dark Force Rising? Only to prevent the Rebels from getting it? It's only 200 dreadnaughts; I thought the Empire had millions of dreadnaughts.

Sorry if this has been covered before...

[Kuja]

The fleet was no longer huge. They were in desperate need of capships. They even tried stealing NR ships.

[Joe]

I understand that the size of the fleet had to have been greatly reduced, but they had to have had HUNDREDS of millions of Dreadnaughts originally. What the hell happened to all those Dreadnaughts? Even if 99.9 percent of them were destroyed in combat (which is very unlikely), that would still leave thousands of ships. I don't see how 200 ships would even make a dent.

[Mr Bean]

I understand that the size of the fleet had to have been greatly reduced, but they had to have had HUNDREDS of millions of Dreadnaughts originally. What the hell happened to all those Dreadnaughts? Even if 99.9 percent of them were destroyed in combat (which is very unlikely), that would still leave thousands of ships. I don't see how 200 ships would even make a dent.

Simple you have millions of Ships you have millions of worlds, does this mean that each world gets one ship? No! Its gets one MAYBE two at best

A sector group(Five to thirty Solar type Systems with at least one inhabited system) has a mear 24 Cap ships assigned to it plus support ships

The thing is the Katana Fleet was a FREE Fleet, IE it was probably in near ready to go order, and speaking of which WHAT was the big deal about it? There was none! Thrawn bent efforts to get the Fleet, however was he out there hunting 24/7? No he picked Ferrier to go get him the Fleet while he was elsewhere, It was a big thing for the NR because 200 FREE Ships(That don't have to be tasked to protecting somthing) is increably vauable

Also remeber that those 200 ships could be manned in less than a few months thanks to the cloning cynilders Thrawn had

[Kuja]

I understand that the size of the fleet had to have been greatly reduced, but they had to have had HUNDREDS of millions of Dreadnaughts originally. What the hell happened to all those Dreadnaughts? Even if 99.9 percent of them were destroyed in combat (which is very unlikely), that would still leave thousands of ships. I don't see how 200 ships would even make a dent.

You've not making any sense. The Katana Fleet was ALWAYS 200 dreadnoughts. They made the dreadnoughts in bursts during the CW, but they were replaced by SDs. At Thrawn's time, where every MC cruiser and ISD was rare enough to be considered extremely precious, suddenly owning 200 capships would make you VERY powerful.

[Alyeska]

As of Dark Force Rising the Empire was 1/4 the size it had been durring Endor. So if they had over 4 million ships as of Endor, they had 1 million as of Dark Force Rising.

[Joe]

I understand that the size of the fleet had to have been greatly reduced, but they had to have had HUNDREDS of millions of Dreadnaughts originally. What the hell happened to all those Dreadnaughts? Even if 99.9 percent of them were destroyed in combat (which is very unlikely), that would still leave thousands of ships. I don't see how 200 ships would even make a dent.

You've not making any sense. The Katana Fleet was ALWAYS 200 dreadnoughts. They made the dreadnoughts in bursts during the CW, but they were replaced by SDs. At Thrawn's time, where every MC cruiser and ISD was rare enough to be considered extremely precious, suddenly owning 200 capships would make you VERY powerful.

You're absolutely right, I'm not making any sense.

What I meant to say was that the EMPIRE had hundreds of millions of dreadnaughts initially. How could they have lost so many millions of dreadnaughts? I meant, if the Imperial fleet really does consist of 1 million at the time of DFR, the Empire should be able to pull 200 dreadnaughts out of its ass.

[Mr Bean]

As of Dark Force Rising the Empire was 1/4 the size it had been durring Endor. So if they had over 4 million ships as of Endor, they had 1 million as of Dark Force Rising

Faulty Logic there Alyeska, 1/4 the size its been does not translate into 1/4 the ships

Just because you lost 3/4 of your Terriorty does that mean magicly all the ships surived in the remaining 1/4 and the other 3/4 where magicly destroyed?

Tell me if 3/4 of the US where lost and the Goverment Retreated to The Dakotas, Iowa, Nebrasaka and Washington(1/4 or so of our teriroty) would we still have 1/4 of the military might of the US? Or might we loose alot more due to the fact of our remaning terirtory was not where the Shipyards where based



Also Your forggeting how many where destroyed in the Month long Civil War after Papys Rise(Estamates range inbetween 15 to 40!% of the Empires Total military power was destroyed during in-fighting that month)

[Alyeska]

As of Dark Force Rising the Empire was 1/4 the size it had been durring Endor. So if they had over 4 million ships as of Endor, they had 1 million as of Dark Force Rising

Faulty Logic there Alyeska, 1/4 the size its been does not translate into 1/4 the ships

Just because you lost 3/4 of your Terriorty does that mean magicly all the ships surived in the remaining 1/4 and the other 3/4 where magicly destroyed?

Tell me if 3/4 of the US where lost and the Goverment Retreated to The Dakotas, Iowa, Nebrasaka and Washington(1/4 or so of our teriroty) would we still have 1/4 of the military might of the US? Or might we loose alot more due to the fact of our remaning terirtory was not where the Shipyards where based



Also Your forggeting how many where destroyed in the Month long Civil War after Papys Rise(Estamates range inbetween 15 to 40!% of the Empires Total military power was destroyed during in-fighting that month)

Its not a perfect comparison, however it is close enough. We don't know what parts were still larger and what parts were still smaller. Given the advantage that the Dark Force gave to the Empire, it would suggest the Empire's fleet was even less then 25% the original size. But since we don't know what was more and what was less, I think a 25% across the board assumption seems fair because it evens the whole thing out.

[Smalleyjedi]

ok they have 25% of the fleet. At least 90% of this is tied down, probobly more. 200 free ships, all toward attacking, without leaving most of them for defense or patrol, is enough to take a few sectors and shift the VERY even balance of power.

[Alyeska]

ok they have 25% of the fleet. At least 90% of this is tied down, probobly more. 200 free ships, all toward attacking, without leaving most of them for defense or patrol, is enough to take a few sectors and shift the VERY even balance of power.

Agreed. At the same time that this lets the Empire expand, it doesn't mean they will conquer the NR in just a year. After securing new territory, they have to build up the ships to garison the new planets so that they can again expand their offensive operations. That is why Thrawn had more then 5 years worth of operations planned against the NR even after the Dark Force had been integrated.

[Master of Ossus]

Well, I think I should point out that the remaining portions of the Imperial fleet were from backwater worlds that likely did not have many ships to begin with, and that those fleets had been beaten up on pretty badly during all of the in-fighting that gripped the Empire. Of the ships Thrawn had left, the VAST majority were probably in the Unknown Territories, pinning down newly conquered areas and expanding even further. 200 ships that were crewed faster than the NR could build a fresh fleet could make a significant difference for someone like Thrawn, especially since he appeared to need capital ships desperately for heavier firepower.

[Connor MacLeod]

IIRC from the Dark Empire Sourcebook it was stated that Palpatine had actually withheld or withdrawn a substantial portion of the Imperial Fleet not directly under the command of renegade warlords directly into the deep core while rebuilding and preparing for his onslaught. (he wasn't happy with Thrawn as I recall.. and probably would not have helped.)

Additionally we know that there WERE still warlords that did not join with Thrawn.. and IIRC from the Essential Chronology he had to fend some of them off (such as Teradoc and the Pentestar Alignment) And even beyond that, there was internal dissention that was only held together by Thrawn.. I suspect holding what remained of Imperial Territory took up a sizable portion of the fleet.

And IIRC they had no substantial shipyard facilities, at least compared to the New Republic. Places like Kuat and Sluis Van were beyond his control... and others like Corellia, which I dont directly remember being under NR jurisdiction, were likewise beyond his command.

We can also probably factor in decimation of losses during the attritional rate that lead to the New Republic holdign 3 quarters of the Empire, the internal fighting between warlords, loss of certian LARGE groups (such as Zsinj) Beyond this, its quite possible that the post-empire breakdown lead to supply and demand problems with shipyards (commerce raiding and such) its quite possible that production rates among commercial shipyards (if not military-run ones like the ones the YEvetha owned in Black Fleet Crisis) suffered cuts in production.

And on the New Republic Side, I think things were not so good as well. Remember that only a few years ago they were on the edge of financial troubles (what with the Krytos virus, and even before that) - I doubt they could have afforded extensive shipbuilding that the Empire had (evn if they could keep up the rate, which IIRC they could not), and what with expanding their territory in a matter of a few years so rapidly, especially from the minimal levels they started with post-Endor, suggests they were thinly stretched as well.

I suspect the Katana fleet represented more or less a concentration of ships heavy enough for most combat and assault duties that would allow oen side or another to free up resources to commit to increased offenses (as well as retaking or expanding territory). They were enough, coupled with Thrawn's abilities, to give the Empire enough of a short-term advantage to push against the New Republic

[Failed Glory]

Wouldn't the element of suprise be a factor here as well?

The NR can keep tabs on Imperial shipyards (#/month, quality, type) to a fair degree of accuracy. The Imperials can do the same to NR shipyards. Each side has a relativley accurate estimate of the other's force and capabilities.

To suddenly have 200 ships appear in an Imperial system as if from deep space would throw the NR for a loop. Defense lines, fleet organization, and orbital defenses would have to be rearranged. And Thrawn is a master of exploitation of such confusion.

To commit those 200 ships to a battle whitout NR knowledge of their existence would be catastrophic. Instead of 4 ISDs, you face 200 dreadnoughts and 4 ISDs? Total loss.

[Stormbringer]

Wouldn't the element of suprise be a factor here as well?

The NR can keep tabs on Imperial shipyards (#/month, quality, type) to a fair degree of accuracy. The Imperials can do the same to NR shipyards. Each side has a relativley accurate estimate of the other's force and capabilities.

To suddenly have 200 ships appear in an Imperial system as if from deep space would throw the NR for a loop. Defense lines, fleet organization, and orbital defenses would have to be rearranged. And Thrawn is a master of exploitation of such confusion.

To commit those 200 ships to a battle whitout NR knowledge of their existence would be catastrophic. Instead of 4 ISDs, you face 200 dreadnoughts and 4 ISDs? Total loss.

Only if Thrawn had managed to get them without tipping off the NR. As it was the only suprise was that he was able to repair and man them so quickly.

[Mr Bean]

Only if Thrawn had managed to get them without tipping off the NR. As it was the only suprise was that he was able to repair and man them so quickly.

Clones remeber? While your looking for the ships you can clone crewers and people for the ships

[Stormbringer]

He was saying they were so effective because of suprise value. I was saying as it worked out, Thrawn got only a little suprise out of it.

[Failed Glory]

You think of the triple suprise of clones and 200 ships and a Grand Admiral like Thrawn back in his element would really scare those Rebel weiners into complete mayhem.

Imagine you're a mediocre captain of a N-B frigate on patrol. An ISD rolls out of hyperspace. You're thinking,"Maybe Thrawn is onboard, maybe 200 other dreadnoughts, fully manned, are coming out of hypersapce any second" and you turn tail and make a jump without even finding out the name of the ISD.

Now you are in charge of a planet's defense and the same thing happens...

Without those informative patrols, or even planetary defense, the whole of the Republic's support base could easily fail without a sinlge turbolaser. If you and I can realize, Thrawn knows it and would exploit it.

[greenmm]

He was saying they were so effective because of suprise value. I was saying as it worked out, Thrawn got only a little suprise out of it.

Actually, wasn't that due to the Katana fleet already having been raided by the one ship's captain and sold to other buyers? Bel Iblis already had some of the Katana Dreadnaughts with his own forces, and I think the NR may have even managed to snag a handful as well. So it's not like Thrawn was able to get all 200 ships...

[Kuja]

He got all but 15.

[Stormbringer]

He was saying they were so effective because of suprise value. I was saying as it worked out, Thrawn got only a little suprise out of it.

Actually, wasn't that due to the Katana fleet already having been raided by the one ship's captain and sold to other buyers? Bel Iblis already had some of the Katana Dreadnaughts with his own forces, and I think the NR may have even managed to snag a handful as well. So it's not like Thrawn was able to get all 200 ships...

Thrawn got all but 15 of the salvageable dreadnaughts left. The Captain had sold about twenty of the dreanaughts, if I remember right. I'm not sure how many were unsalvageable.

I'm was saying Thrawn didn't give the Republic as big a suprise because they already knew he had the bulk of the Katana Fleet. The only real suprise he gave them was getting the back into service so quickly.

[Mr Bean]

I'm was saying Thrawn didn't give the Republic as big a suprise because they already knew he had the bulk of the Katana Fleet. The only real suprise he gave them was getting the back into service so quickly.

And using them as well... It seems like he had them in 8 Ship groud dancing around as distractions, Of course distractions than can wipe a Earth sided planet clean of all life in under an hour realy shows you how far they have gone

[greenmm]

He was saying they were so effective because of suprise value. I was saying as it worked out, Thrawn got only a little suprise out of it.

Actually, wasn't that due to the Katana fleet already having been raided by the one ship's captain and sold to other buyers? Bel Iblis already had some of the Katana Dreadnaughts with his own forces, and I think the NR may have even managed to snag a handful as well. So it's not like Thrawn was able to get all 200 ships...

Thrawn got all but 15 of the salvageable dreadnaughts left. The Captain had sold about twenty of the dreanaughts, if I remember right. I'm not sure how many were unsalvageable.

I'm was saying Thrawn didn't give the Republic as big a suprise because they already knew he had the bulk of the Katana Fleet. The only real suprise he gave them was getting the back into service so quickly.

Definite agreement there. I always feel like shaking them by the shoulders when I read that bit at the end of #2 in that trilogy where they console themselves with the idea that Thrawn won't be able to crew the dreadnaughts quickly...

[Alyeska]

The former captain only sold 6 dreadnaughts to Garm. There were another 9 or so still there that the NR managed to take control of. Thrawn had 175+ dreadnaughts.

[Stormbringer]

The former captain only sold 6 dreadnaughts to Garm. There were another 9 or so still there that the NR managed to take control of. Thrawn had 175+ dreadnaughts.

I do believe he sold eleven more to other buyers. And the New Republic got fifteen of the remainder, figuring in the loss of the Katana that leaves Thrawn 164 dreadnaughts. There are probably some that couldn't be made ready for war (an insane crew with heavy weapons will bust a ship up quick) and were scavaged. So I'd figure it'd be more like 150 or so that he managed to get all told.