Operation Northwoods (now the US was REALLY in on 9/11)

Emperor Norton II · Post by **Emperor Norton II** » 2002-07-13 02:51am

Too true Lord Monkey

Maybe RC believes in the life cycle of "Black Helicopters too...
http://zapatopi.net/blackhelicopters.html

Admiral Piett · Post by **Admiral Piett** » 2002-07-13 06:31am

Mr resident commie I think that mr Bean is correct.Many things are planned but this does not mean that who plan them has the serious intention to execute them.The US had plans to annihilate the soviet union with preemptive nuclear strikes,the same was for the soviet union.Notice that they were never executed and probably never considered a real option by both sides.
When Italy was allied with germany in 1940 Mussolini ordered to the high command to prepare plans for a war with Germany.But he did not have any intention to betray the alliance with Germany,it was simply a preacautionary measure.
It has recently been discovered that apparently Kaiser Wilhelm ordered to his high command in 1895 to study the possibility of an invasion of the US.Certainly he did not have the intention to try to execute that.
I could go on and fill much more space but I hope you have understood the point:the existence of a plan does not mean anyone want to execute it,the plans are usually simply theorical exercises. For this reasons the people who use the existence of a plan to invade Afghanistan before of 9/11 as a proof that it was organized by the US are wrong.The pentagon probably has now a reserve of plans sufficent for a couple of dozens of world wars and to invade every nation in the world and on a smaller scale every military command of every nation of the world studies its own warplans.It means nothing.

Kamakazie Sith · Post by **Kamakazie Sith** » 2002-07-13 07:35am

Admiral Piett wrote:Mr resident commie I think that mr Bean is correct.Many things are planned but this does not mean that who plan them has the serious intention to execute them.The US had plans to annihilate the soviet union with preemptive nuclear strikes,the same was for the soviet union.Notice that they were never executed and probably never considered a real option by both sides.
When Italy was allied with germany in 1940 Mussolini ordered to the high command to prepare plans for a war with Germany.But he did not have any intention to betray the alliance with Germany,it was simply a preacautionary measure.
It has recently been discovered that apparently Kaiser Wilhelm ordered to his high command in 1895 to study the possibility of an invasion of the US.Certainly he did not have the intention to try to execute that.
I could go on and fill much more space but I hope you have understood the point:the existence of a plan does not mean anyone want to execute it,the plans are usually simply theorical exercises. For this reasons the people who use the existence of a plan to invade Afghanistan before of 9/11 as a proof that it was organized by the US are wrong.The pentagon probably has now a reserve of plans sufficent for a couple of dozens of world wars and to invade every nation in the world and on a smaller scale every military command of every nation of the world studies its own warplans.It means nothing.

Well said.

David · Post by **David** » 2002-07-13 11:26am

Emperor Norton II wrote:Too true Lord Monkey

Maybe RC believes in the life cycle of "Black Helicopters too...
http://zapatopi.net/blackhelicopters.html

That site was a hoot.

Admiral Piett · Post by **Admiral Piett** » 2002-07-13 11:47am

Mr resident Commie, do you really think(assuming that I understood what do you mean) that you can run an industrialized 200 millions of people country with direct democracy(grassroots democracy I assume) like you could run a peasants' village? Even ancient Athens was nearly too large to be efficiently governed by this system (without mentioning that slaves,women and aliens did not have any representation which simplified the problem ).A complex society requires a complex organization which means forms of hyerarchy which means that there will be people who will have a certain amount of power.
And people with power tend always to be corrupted.There is no way to eliminate this,it can be only partially limited.
Then what do you mean for socialist economy?
The economy of the real socialist states is/was essentially a statal capitalism.
The state has the control of the means of production and uses them more or less like a capitalist would do,making investments etc.It is a system that the soviet union adopted in the late twenties mainly because everything else they tried in the previous years was either a failure such as the war communism or tended to degenerate towards capitalism,such as the New
Economical Policy enforced by Lenin in the twenties.The system itself is based on the model of the wartime economies of WW1.Unsurprisingly it works quite well when there are emergencies(read war) and it is up to the task to execute political priorities (anyone wonders why the russians were the first to send a man in to the space).The other side of the coin is that does not work very well for the day to day life and it is economical inefficient in the long term.We cannot be 100% sure but it is unlikely it can really last more than few decades.The few "socialist" countries remained are no more really socialist.Cuban economy for example is based mainly on a semi-legalized black market and in the other places it is more or less the same.
The economy fails because the bureaucracy that runs it is simply not up to the pratically impossible task of managing with enough efficiency a modern complex industrialized economy.A smaller amount of military expenditure than that which affected negatively the soviet union should improve the situation but not enough to make the difference.The system does not guarantee equality because the bureaucrats, having the economical power, grant privileges for themselves.Standard of life are lower than in capitalist countries,in the sense that the average citizen has a lower standard of life.
The only thing that this "socialism" does and that SOME capitalist countries do not do is to grant to all citizens few services such as a generally 2nd rate sanitary service and decent and sometimes good public shools.Nothing else.Some people claim that these are so important that this is all that is required to classify socialism as superior and they are important,but are they enough important to compensate for everything else?.Typically people,even those who claim this, do not really think so.Otherwise we should see people trying to leave the US (no public sanitary system,as far as I know) for Cuba (decent public sanitary system).
Thus the socialism as has existed historically is recognized as a failure even by the majority of the remaining communists.
Are there other forms?The average communists usually says that he wants a system where workers manage the factories by self government.The problem is the context where factories are placed.Abolishing free market (and in general private ownership of means of productions as Marx suggests) you still need someone to do a general work of coordination and to build new factories.And this someone can be only the state with its bureaucracy,which as we have already seen is not up to the titanic effort.
I do not have the time to write a book but I think to have summarized the problem.Of course if you think to have better ideas I will be here.

Ai Phling Pu · Post by **Ai Phling Pu** » 2002-07-13 01:26pm

He's a Commie, of course he uses the word "State" for "Government". After all, his greatest wish is to be State Property.

EmperorChrostas the Cruel · Post by **EmperorChrostas the Cruel** » 2002-07-13 02:15pm

The one thing RC has failed to address in his claim, that knocks his dick in the dirt, is:

Where on the face of Earth, (or the MOON for that matter, "we come in peace, for all mankind") has the USA (since the Spanish American war, "Bully!" Teddy R.)stolen one square foot of land?Puerto Rico, and Guam are still US territories, but the majority don't want to secede. Cuba, and the Philippines were set free.

The government is run by the foolish and corrupt. DUHHH! This is a human universal. "They mean to rule well, but they mean to rule none the less." It would surprise him to know just how many people in government are honest. Thus the whistle blowers. There are as many people in government that are honest as there are in the rest of society. Think about it. Who really is "The Government"? People, like you or me, that get a job working for the state. Does getting a job change your moral character? Your human nature? No. So when you fuck up, you want to cover your ass. The single best feature of our system, is DAMAGE CONTROLE.
Our system has up sides and downsides like all systems. The downside, is that the election process tends to discourage the very honest. The up side, we have a mechanism for removing fuck ups. Looking at the ups and downs our system is still the best, when taken as a whole. Which is the only fair way to assess ANY system. RC is using a tactic called "cherry picking", which is to compare all the down sides of one system, with the up sides of an other. This very approach is dishonest. Again an unanswered question, where in history, has so MUCH power, done so LITTLE evil?

David · Post by **David** » 2002-07-13 02:47pm

where in history, has so MUCH power, done so LITTLE evil?
_________________

Exactly what I said before, and he did not addess it.

Resident Commie · Post by **Resident Commie** » 2002-07-13 04:05pm

This may be my only post of the day, due to family priorities.

The most reative responces were made by David and Admiral Piett so I will be addressing there posts.

David
Now at least you have actually looked at some of the link I have presented. Before I go into your weak strawman and nit pick, I have one brief comment.

I looked at the web sites you posted, at least those that put
the actual urls of the relevent material. The one that you
keep harping about, Echelonwatch, was the on I looked into
most thourghly.

Considering that echelon was only a small part of my overall argument I assume you are conceding all prior points to me. For your personal enlightenment I will post news reports that you should be aware of before you over-generalize a situation and call it conspiracy.

As for your clams of purely conspiracy jargon here is an example if I was to use your reasoning in a different subject.

Report on the Capabilites of the Radar circa 1935
The radar is a fairly new invention that has many promising uses. It is believed that it can recieve signals from transmiters. According to reports the radar sends some sort of radio signal that allows it to detect object. In fact, it has been suggested that it can be used detect aircraft in flight. However, the exact capabilities and goals of RADAR remain unclear, it is almost certain that it will be used in the military for obvious reasons. RADAR apparently , has already been developed in European nations such as Great Britian and Germany. Reports suggest the first models will be fully operational in the next 5 years. According to various sources , the US has also sought development RADAR technology. Furthermore, it is believed that RADAR this will revoluationize air travel just as SONAR did 30 years prior. Apparently, the nations that are involved with RADAR are Germany, UK, and the US.

As you can see these words only seem to be incredulous if you take them out of their context and imply there purpose with a speculative outlook. As you can see by a report, the words are perfectly sensible when applyed to valid information, as mine have. And while septics of RADAR in the 30's would have called it a hoax, and a "magic eye" that was unproven in the real world, scientists would of laughed at them.

To suppliment your inability of actual research. You fail to note that two of the link are actual NSA Manuals and Guides for how to conduct the sort of surveillance that is described by Echelonwatch.
"USSID 18 permits the incidential collection - and under clearly defined cirumstances, the intentional collection - of, (or for information concerning) US Persons. When information intercepted involve US persons, the USSID permits retention and decemination of the, information"

---------------------------------

As for the USA Patriot Act
SEC. 802. DEFINITION OF DOMESTIC TERRORISM.
(5) the term `domestic terrorism' means activities that--`
(B) appear to be intended--

`(i) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population;

`(ii) to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or

Again: If the activity appears to be intended to influence the policy of a government – not just the United States government – by intimidation, it’s domestic terrorism. Most important: Since all we require is intimidation, how would we define that?

"Intimidation" does not seem to be defined in H.R. 3162. We thus must turn to authoritative dictionaries, which say such things as "to make timid." Put it in the hands of a trial lawyer, and here’s how it could play out: Have you ever felt intimidated by someone smarter, larger, older, wealthier, higher in rank, more attractive, more physically fit, more passionate, or more popular than yourself? That’s all it takes to establish intimidation in court – being made timid. Get a jury or judge to buy your version of events, and you win.

So while intimidation is a weak criterion, far too easy to establish in a court of law, you don’t even have to establish anyone’s intent to intimidate, much less his success at intimidating someone. You, the prosecutor, have to establish only the appearance of the intention to intimidate any government, and you can try anyone for domestic terrorism.

--------------------------------

As for other exeamples of the governments trickery and deception I point to these:
A stories of how the US wormed its way out of having to abide by the Geneva Conventions
http://fair.org/extra/0203/guantanamo-p ... sfeld.html
http://globalresearch.ca/articles/PCJ201A.html

A culminating story which further allows the US to escape from being accused of international crimes. By way of blackmail.
http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/europe/07 ... index.html

The unreported story of Bush's appointing of key government positions to those connected with the Iran-Contra affair
http://www.fair.org/extra/0109/iran-contra.html

----------------------------------
In responce to Admiral Piett,
As for the topic of politics and ideology,

The US is a power hunger imperialistic state that will do anything to gain more power.
Bush[/color] The Elite are bilthering idiots who cares only for money and power.
In a few years globalization and free market industry will cause a greater divide between the elite and the rest of the world.
The problems of today will escalate, wars will start, people will die, poverty, disease, and hunger will run rampant, and every last freedom that was granted to us will be gone, so it had never existed. (well that last one was a rant)
Therefore Grassroots Democracy with a Socialist Economy is what will best help the world. Not the curent state in which only the elite and wealthy are granted sustained prosperty and humane life.

The first three points I have learned through, years of research and active participitation in the international fourms. I can point to countless sources of information that you will find as speculative conjecture, by pure virutue of your bias. The rest of the world knows these facts and are doing something to stop it. And while capitalistic propganda might seem appealing, it does not shed light on the hard truth of what is being done. Such hypocrisy and misinformation has degraded our thoughts and erased our morals. We have been shown what they want to show, and taught what they want to teach, convinetly leaving out the facts about the suffering and pain they are creating through their selfish polices.

Two quotes that best come to mind are:
"The nationalist not only does not dissapprove of attrocities committed by his own side, but he has a remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them." -George Oewell
"Why of course the people don't want war... But after all it is the leaders of a country who determine the policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, wheather it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dicatorship... Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country...
-Hermann Goering, Nuremberg Trials

I believe that if we use our voice we can defend our freedom. Such things are expected of us as freedom loving people. To stop those who seek to control us, and those who wish to take advantage of others. While we in the west may not feel the effects of globalization and free-enterprise they are surely felt elsewhere. Wars to fuel riches and treaties to be broken are all common. As the poverty gap continues to grow a divide between the impoverished people of the world, the poor westerners and the rich westerners. As is common fact the top 1% of american citizens contorl more combined wealth than the entire bottom 99% of citizens. This is something which has been done by exploitation and illegal activities. As is seen by the recent corporate scandals. This action is no longer tolerable and we must do something to break the monoply of power that the rich continue to hold. The world cannot support their consolidation of wealth, a new lifestyle of relative equality for all of us needs to be implemented for to contiued survival of humanity.

Let us remember the words that were given to us over 200 years ago:
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. --That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form,"

The End... (i hope

)

Resident Commie · Post by **Resident Commie** » 2002-07-13 04:31pm

it turns out i have an hour before i have to leave so i will put as much in as i can.

Most importantly,

where in history, has so MUCH power, done so LITTLE evil?

This question is a false dilemma and is irrelivent to the issue at hand. It is not a contest of which government in history, supported more or less evils then the others. But simply the fact that they did comit evils which are deceitful and often illegal for a government of it's time and capability. Are any of them any less quilty. For example this is why many civilians, as well as members of the military, in the Nazi regime oppssed Hitler and even planed numerous times his assassination. They saw past the Nazi propaganda, and realized what it was really about. Now it is our turn to do the same. To remain ever vigilant of enemies foreign and domestic.

As for those who have delusions of the true nature of the government. Stop listening to the propaganda and learn to research what the government is actually doing.
Here's a good start:
http://www.publicintegrity.org/dtaweb/downloads/otr.pdf

EmperorChrostas the Cruel · Post by **EmperorChrostas the Cruel** » 2002-07-13 09:15pm

All government is run by people. People are capable of evil. Therefore all government is capable of evil. So fucking what?
Question: Which form of government has the BEST method of stopping or adressing evil done in It's name?
Seeking perfection is for the Borg. Humans will have to do the BEST, with what they HAVE.
My points are not adressed, because you can't. Not because they are not worth adressing.
Your seeing anything less than no bad done in the name of the state, as a complete failure, smacks of Creationist debaiting tactics. Flaws in the system that never claimed perfection is not a good reason to change, until you come up with a BETTER one. (Evolution)A classic Creationist tactic. If it ain't broke don't fix it. If it is broke, ONLY fix the broken parts. (peer review, Scientific maethod)That and you being the arbiter of what's worth responding to. An other Creationist tactic. You fail to adress the Issue as a whole, instead of Maximum nit pic mode. Yet an other Creationist tactic. Your entire method of arguement is conclusion driven. Filled with apeal to authority. I say, look around. Your denigrating my conclusions, based on direct observations is tragic or laughable, depending on my mood. You keep saying we who disagree with you are ,"brainwashed , unintelligant, or misinformed " is arguement from intimidation, yet AN OTHER Creationis tactic.
This is not a court of law, and reasonable doubt is not enough to win, as you are not being charged with a crime, as stupidity and ignorance are still legal, and I don't work in law enforcement.
I have to thank you for helping me to polish the rust off my typing and debaiting skills. You have helped me remember things I forgot years ago.
"Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit doing amphetamines!" Lloyd Bridges, Airplane.

EmperorChrostas the Cruel · Post by **EmperorChrostas the Cruel** » 2002-07-13 09:16pm

The previous post is directed at RC.

EmperorChrostas the Cruel · Post by **EmperorChrostas the Cruel** » 2002-07-13 09:39pm

RC:
Reguarding conspiracies. "Two can keep a secret, provided one is dead"
If the powers that be knew about the impending attack on NYC, which would serve their interests better? Letting the attack happen, and it being possibly found out?(Completely ending the career, and LIFE of said conspirators in the electric chair, or on the street by a victim's loved ones) OR. Stopping the attack, and gaining instant hero status? Politicians are a low risk cowardly lot. This kind of thing could not be kept a secret, after the fact. Not too mention, there are REAL , honest patriots, that work in the service of our great nation. I know, because I've MET them, and was ONE of them.
The most disturbing part of all this, is your willingness to asume evil motivations to those who disagree with you politicaly. That and your dismissal of the rest as "sheep".
Do you asume that everyone in law enforcement is a wannabe facist, rather than someone dedicated to doing some GOOD withtheir life?
I could be wrong but I bet you do. Given your sour view of humanity, you should be even MORE in even favour of a system who's chief advantage is limiting the bad that any one individual can do.
In short, fix the bad you see, leave the good alone.

Admiral Piett · Post by **Admiral Piett** » 2002-07-14 07:56am

Do you want the answers on this thread or on the other?I will place this here
"The èlite are bilthering idiots who cares only for money and power"
Money maybe not always.Power of course yes,the 99% of would not be where he is if he was not driven by lust for power.Do we really need to be remembered the obvious?Or do the americans trust their politicians more than we do here in europe?Unlikely.
Will globalization create more divide?Possible but this is mainly because our economy grows faster than that of third world countries,which often remains more or less static.There is also to consider that population grows quickly and this complicates the problem.
We of course exploit cheap labor force,install there polluting factories and so on.But this itself does not explain the majority of the economical divide.
Economy is a very complex matter,despite what the modern laissez faire school may say or progressist liberal "intellectuals" may think.
A country may lack of natural resources and be a 1st rate industrial power(Japan).
An other may be plenty of them,have a government free from external influence like for example Iran and still being relatively poor.Many third world countries do not offer,for a variety of reasons, an environment which helps economic development and thus remain undeveloped.Others apparently offer this environment despite their initial poverty and have developed.
South Corea was a poor nation 50 years ago.No significant natural resources.Partly influenced by the US.Now is a developed nation.
Philippines were in the same exactly conditions(US presence,lack of natural resources) but they have not developed significantly at least until recent years.Evidently there are conditions which are not so obvious,like the culture of the population,which make an enourmous difference in creating the environment that encourages economical development.I am not saying that the third poor countries are poor for their culture but I am simply saying that the liberal slogan "third world countries are poor because we exploit them" is only a small portion of the truth.Japan has been colonized (although has become a colonizer after but now is no more and is richer than he was when he was a colonizer) and South Corea has never been an imperialist country,in the sense that it has never gone around securing oilfields and colonies.But both are developed.Italy has not literally gained a cent from its colonies. But it is now a developed country near to the UK(only from an economical point of view of course),once great colonial empire with vast resources and now rich of oil.
Now let us put aside this problem and examine the rest.
"The rest of the world knows these facts and are doing something to stop it"
Well I can only pray that our politicians will not be so fools to play a renactment of the cold war using the UE at the place of the URSS.It would be suicidal for us.If you meant instead something else please be more specific.Keep in mind however that the no global movement is mainly a western circus at the moment.
I do not have a cristal ball.Maybe things will become worse or maybe will remain more or less than today.In the sixties many analysts thought that by the 2000 starvation would have reached biblical proportion.Now there is starvation but much less than it was expected.
By the way it is not like the 1-99 ratio is due to a financial scandal.
Thinking that things could be make work better is thing.Working out an whole alternative system,implementing it,making it work and making it work better than the original is a very very very very very very different thing.Reality is always a cold shower for the revolutionaires.

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2002-07-14 08:24am

Acutal I was the Blithering idiot comment but I don't nessary belive they are powerhungrey War-mongers
Just they are blithering idiots
They could be patrots
They could be spies for Sweden!
But there still
Blithering idiots

EmperorChrostas the Cruel · Post by **EmperorChrostas the Cruel** » 2002-07-14 02:55pm

Claim; The USA was in on 9/11 Pretty extraordinary eh?
Extraordinary claims, require extraordinary PROOF, not circumstancial accusations.
WHO knew? Be specific, name NAMES! (or job titles) THEM, and THEY don't cut it. Nor will SOMEONE.
Don't throw in a non sequater, like the government is corrupt.

Resident Commie · Post by **Resident Commie** » 2002-07-15 02:37pm

Chrostas, have you been completely oblivious to everything in the news regarding what Bush, the FBI director, and many others knew about 9/11?

Everyone important in the government and intelegence community knew months ahead of potential upcoming threats, they simply did nothing about it. They could of shot down the planes, saving the buildings and lives, yet they didn't do it. Why?

"We know that there were several warnings that were given prior to the events of September 11th. People were calling in to the CIA and to the FBI, and they were giving information that was critical. There was adequate warning. But instead of requesting that Congress investigate what went wrong and why, we had President Bush place a phone call to Majority Leader Senator Tom Daschle, asking him not to investigate.

My question is, what do they have to hide? The fact is that the father sits on the board of the Carlyle (ph) Group, which is one of the highest-level defense contractors in the country. And so we get this presidency of questionable legitimacy requesting a nearly unprecedented amount of money to go into a defense budget for defense spending that will directly benefit his father! (Rep. Cynthia McKinney (D), Georgia, 12 April 2002)"

http://globalresearch.ca/articles/CRG204A.html

David · Post by **David** » 2002-07-15 05:31pm

You leave out part of most of those conversations, those same FBI and CIA agents said that they receive thousands of threats evey year, and they must pick and choose between what to follow up on. There was no solid evidence that the events of 9/11 would actually happen, so they put their resources elsewhere. Most of these inquires have come out of the fact that politicians are looking for a scapegoat, and they have found it in the CIA.

Emperor Norton II · Post by **Emperor Norton II** » 2002-07-16 12:58am

I took a look at some of RC's web links today while it was slow at work. From what I saw there, I think he needs on of these more than ever.

http://zapatopi.net/afdb.html

David · Post by **David** » 2002-07-16 12:30pm

Emperor Norton II · Post by **Emperor Norton II** » 2002-07-17 01:15am

I know this is another log for the fire, but here is another link. If RC can use Google to justify his insanity - then so can I.

http://www.webconspiracy.com/

Then again maybe he's shopping for web links in the conspiracy section at Google...

David · Post by **David** » 2002-07-17 04:00pm

Let it die Emp, I think we're all tired of this.

EmperorChrostas the Cruel · Post by **EmperorChrostas the Cruel** » 2002-07-18 03:10am

Stake through heart, body infused with silver, prior to burning in direct sunlight. Ashes and embers doused with holy water.

John · Post by **John** » 2002-07-20 08:35pm

If we were as bad-ass as you seem to think we are...why haven't we burned every terrorist nation into radioactive soot? Libya? Gone. Lebanon. Ash. Iraq? Scorched earth. Iran? Parking lot. If you say it's because we are afraid of Russia, step up so I can slap you in the face.

David · Post by **David** » 2002-07-20 10:22pm

Try to make your posts a little less inflamitory John, just because you disagree does not give you the right to insult.

StarDestroyer.Net BBS

Operation Northwoods (now the US was REALLY in on 9/11)

another post for the blind

Why Not?

Commies must Die!