Return of the King Discussion Thread (MAJOR SPOILERS!)

Vendetta · Post by **Vendetta** » 2003-12-22 06:48pm

StarshipTitanic wrote:Is it just me, or does each battle end with the use of a deus ex machina?

And why the hell did the orcs kill every last one of each other in the tower where Frodo was kept?

In the books, the way the battles are resolved is set up well in advance.

At Helm's Deep Gandalf scurries off to Isengard to see Treebeard, recruit Huorns,and bring them back, and gathers as many of the area's survivng troops as he can. After all, by this time we've already seen the Ents on the march, and they've already started on Isengard as soon as it's armies have left.

At the battle of the Pelennor, the setup for the Rohirrim and Aragorn's relief armies is all laid out well in advance.

They arrive just in time, because that's dramatically satisfying, but Tolkien doesn't just invent them as he needs them, which is what a Deus ex Machina is..

Daltonator · Post by **Daltonator** » 2003-12-22 08:59pm

That's the way it is in the movies too, if you remember.

Demiurge · Post by **Demiurge** » 2003-12-22 09:12pm

It's not a deus ex machina for the ghost army to end the battle of Pelennor Fields. That plot point was explained well before and was the point of Aragorn's plan. It was also symbolic of him taking his rightful place as king. However, to be truthful, I didn't much like how the battle ended.

Nor is it a deus ex machina for the destruction of the ring to end the battle at the Morannon. That was the whole point of the battle.

HemlockGrey · Post by **HemlockGrey** » 2003-12-22 10:36pm

Wouldn't a deus ex machina be more like Aragorn walks into the Dwimmerburg (sp?) and then the next time you see him he's leaping out of the boat?

zombie84 · Post by **zombie84** » 2003-12-23 12:55am

a true deus ex machina would to have the battle being lost and then all of a sudden the army of the dead shows up out of nowhere without explaination, kills everyone and says "hello, we are the dead army who are cursed until we fulfilled our oath to save you guys, which we just did. thanks, we'll be seeing you now" and then dissapearing.

Post by **Vympel** » 2003-12-23 02:39am

Sorry for asking, but I've got to know, do they show Faramir and Eowyn getting together in the film?

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2003-12-23 02:41am

Vympel wrote:Sorry for asking, but I've got to know, do they show Faramir and Eowyn getting together in the film?

During Aragorn's coronation they show the two standing together looking jovial, though they don't explicitly allude to their romance.

phongn · Post by **phongn** » 2003-12-23 02:43am

Joe wrote:
Vympel wrote:Sorry for asking, but I've got to know, do they show Faramir and Eowyn getting together in the film?
During Aragorn's coronation they show the two standing together looking jovial, though they don't explicitly allude to their romance.

The Houses of Healing may be in the EE...

Post by **Vympel** » 2003-12-23 03:23am

Joe wrote:
During Aragorn's coronation they show the two standing together looking jovial, though they don't explicitly allude to their romance.

They better get the damn Houses of Healing in there, I swear ...

(on an unrelated to the book note, Faramir being corrected as to the fate of Boromir would be nice- Sam gave a totally miscontrued, yet technically true account of his death).

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » 2003-12-23 08:25am

Vympel wrote:(on an unrelated to the book note, Faramir being corrected as to the fate of Boromir would be nice- Sam gave a totally miscontrued, yet technically true account of his death).

It's in the Extended Edition, isn't it? Or was that what you were referring to?

Dartzap · Post by **Dartzap** » 2003-12-23 10:25am

what were the giant armored things that charge in when the ram finished the gate called? are they just trained Trolls?

Ted C · Post by **Ted C** » 2003-12-23 10:38am

They are trolls wearing armor, probably Olog-Hai, a breed of troll that can survive in sunlight as long as Sauron focuses his will on them.

Dartzap · Post by **Dartzap** » 2003-12-23 10:43am

okie, thanks for the info

StarshipTitanic · Post by **StarshipTitanic** » 2003-12-23 02:59pm

Sorry, I should have said "cheap cop-out." I felt no tension at all during any battle. Not because there were heroes and I knew the heroes wouldn't die, but because I knew that the battle would always end in a crushing victory because of some magical happening. I guess I shouldn't have expected Lord of the Rings to change my mind about fantasy, like my friends claimed it would...

Vendetta · Post by **Vendetta** » 2003-12-23 05:12pm

StarshipTitanic wrote:Sorry, I should have said "cheap cop-out." I felt no tension at all during any battle. Not because there were heroes and I knew the heroes wouldn't die, but because I knew that the battle would always end in a crushing victory because of some magical happening. I guess I shouldn't have expected Lord of the Rings to change my mind about fantasy, like my friends claimed it would...

Yeah, because Tolkien wrote 700 pages of novel just for the heroes to be crushed and Sauron to emerge victorious...

lazerus · Post by **lazerus** » 2003-12-23 05:28pm

Yeah, because Tolkien wrote 700 pages of novel just for the heroes to be crushed and Sauron to emerge victorious...

"A day may come, when the power of sarcasm fails, when we forsake all manner of joking, and the age of sarcasm ends. But that is not this day, this day we MOCK!"

Post by **LadyTevar** » 2003-12-23 05:30pm

lazerus wrote:
Yeah, because Tolkien wrote 700 pages of novel just for the heroes to be crushed and Sauron to emerge victorious...
"A day may come, when the power of sarcasm fails, when we forsake all manner of joking, and the age of sarcasm ends. But that is not this day, this day we MOCK!"

Good one!

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2003-12-23 05:31pm

What people fail to realize that all other modern fantasy FOLLOWS LOTR. LOTR established the whole sterotypical fantasy Elves, Dwarves, Hobbits/halflings, powerful enemies and fallen kingdoms. Tolkien basically is the father of Modern fantasy so when you say "I've seen this all before." its BECAUSE of LOTR that you have seen it all before.

Post by **LadyTevar** » 2003-12-23 05:35pm

Stravo wrote:What people fail to realize that all other modern fantasy FOLLOWS LOTR. LOTR established the whole sterotypical fantasy Elves, Dwarves, Hobbits/halflings, powerful enemies and fallen kingdoms. Tolkien basically is the father of Modern fantasy so when you say "I've seen this all before." its BECAUSE of LOTR that you have seen it all before.

This is also why D&D adventures are laid out as a journey, with a series of encounters with foes and friends along the way. It's patterned after Frodo and co. meeting Tom Bombadil, falling to the BarrowWights, meeting Aragorn at the end, fighting the RingWraiths at Weathertop, etc, ad nauseum.

Vendetta · Post by **Vendetta** » 2003-12-23 05:38pm

Stravo wrote:What people fail to realize that all other modern fantasy FOLLOWS LOTR. LOTR established the whole sterotypical fantasy Elves, Dwarves, Hobbits/halflings, powerful enemies and fallen kingdoms. Tolkien basically is the father of Modern fantasy so when you say "I've seen this all before." its BECAUSE of LOTR that you have seen it all before.

Well, actually Tolkien waved a copy of Beowulf in front of your face and screamed Read this, shiteyes.

But the effect is the same.

The only things that Tolkien really established are Hobbits and Orcs, everything else was just sweeping side seven hundred hears of French romantic literature (the tradition of Arthur, etc) and returning to a previous Anglo Saxon storytelling model, but colouring it with his own beliefs and concerns (hence the attention paid to landscape and nature, that some people dislike)

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2003-12-23 05:41pm

Vendetta wrote:
Stravo wrote:What people fail to realize that all other modern fantasy FOLLOWS LOTR. LOTR established the whole sterotypical fantasy Elves, Dwarves, Hobbits/halflings, powerful enemies and fallen kingdoms. Tolkien basically is the father of Modern fantasy so when you say "I've seen this all before." its BECAUSE of LOTR that you have seen it all before.
Well, actually Tolkien waved a copy of Beowulf in front of your face and screamed Read this, shiteyes.

But the effect is the same.

The only things that Tolkien really established are Hobbits and Orcs, everything else was just sweeping side seven hundred hears of French romantic literature (the tradition of Arthur, etc) and returning to a previous Anglo Saxon storytelling model, but colouring it with his own beliefs and concerns (hence the attention paid to landscape and nature, that some people dislike)

Agreed, he stated many times that his intention was to create a new type of mythology one based on Old Enlgish, Anglo Saxon myths and stories and it ios obvious he suceeded.

Vendetta · Post by **Vendetta** » 2003-12-23 05:47pm

Given that Lord of the Rings was voted the most popular book of all time in England, I think he did a little more than succeed.

(you must all run out and buy the entire Big Read top 5, by the way, as this will mean you own examples of two, (arguably three) of the four best fantasy works ever.)

2000AD · Post by **2000AD** » 2003-12-23 07:09pm

Stravo wrote: Agreed, he stated many times that his intention was to create a new type of mythology one based on Old Enlgish, Anglo Saxon myths and stories and it ios obvious he suceeded.

According to the FOTR:EE he was pissed off that most of "British" mythology was infact a hodge podge collection of mythology from other cultures (Norman, Celtic, etc) so he thought he'd go out and write some proper British Mythology. Is that true?

Vendetta · Post by **Vendetta** » 2003-12-23 07:15pm

Mostly he was annoyed about the influence of the French romantic tradition. (King Arthur, as seen in legend, is entirely a creation of twelfth century France)

Nordic and Anglo Saxon myths are the ones he drew upon to create Arda, it's people, and it's storytelling style..

DPDarkPrimus · Post by **DPDarkPrimus** » 2003-12-23 11:13pm

So, I saw it.

Mind-blowing.

However, a few complaints:

1) Too much focus on everyone but Frodo. About halfway through the movie, when they cut back to Mordor, I said to myself "Oh, right, Frodo's in this movie too".

2) The "searchlight" eye. Cheesy. Why couldn't it just have been done like that when it sees Frodo?

3) The collapse of the tower. Too. Long.

4) WHERE THE HELL WAS CHRISTOPHER LEE IN THE CREDITS? YOU LISTED SEAN BEAN, WHY NOT HIM??