New "old" Starfleet Phase Pistols: Love 'em or hat

[Master of Ossus]

WHAT? SW technology is clearly much more advanced than it was 25,000 years ago. 25,000 years ago they had just created hyperdrives. They did not have shields. Their computers were mind-numbingly slow, by comparison with the ones available at the time of ANH. They did not have man-portable blaster weapons (beam tubes were not until Xim the Despot, and those were VERY heavy and uncomfortable). They were clearly nowhere near as developed. You assume that, because we have not seen many visible improvements from TPM to ANH, they must not be developing new technology. You ignore the fact that the prequels thusfar have focused on developed worlds while the original trilogy focused on primitive, out of the way planets, and you ignore the developments that have been elaborated on in the books (ie. Power storage, computing power, and armor).

[His Divine Shadow]

I don't know... the same technology appears to have developed, then gone essentially unchanged for 25 millennia... if that isn't stagnation, I don't know what is.

Who said thats when the stagnation began?
Thats never been said infact, for all we know it begun a few hundred years before ANH.

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

WHAT? SW technology is clearly much more advanced than it was 25,000 years ago. 25,000 years ago they had just created hyperdrives. They did not have shields. Their computers were mind-numbingly slow, by comparison with the ones available at the time of ANH. They did not have man-portable blaster weapons (beam tubes were not until Xim the Despot, and those were VERY heavy and uncomfortable). They were clearly nowhere near as developed. You assume that, because we have not seen many visible improvements from TPM to ANH, they must not be developing new technology. You ignore the fact that the prequels thusfar have focused on developed worlds while the original trilogy focused on primitive, out of the way planets, and you ignore the developments that have been elaborated on in the books (ie. Power storage, computing power, and armor).

Actually, I have read only one SW book, (Darksaber). It was utterly forgettable, and I doubt I'll ever read another one. Nothing personal, but you really can't assume that everyone here is the die-hard SW fan that most of you clearly are.

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

Technological stasis and "no technological developement" are very different things.

I don't know... the same technology appears to have developed, then gone essentially unchanged for 25 millennia... if that isn't stagnation, I don't know what is.

Care to expand upon your baseless statement?

Baseless? They've been using the same propulsion system for 25 thousand years! Not only that, after 25 thousand years, they're still identical to 20th century Terrans! It's not just their technology that's stagnated, their biology has flatlined as well! Now not to discount MoO's statement based on the books, but increases in efficiency and power of 25 millennia don't constitute a very impressive level of advancement, when you think about it, do they?

[Master of Ossus]

WHAT? SW technology is clearly much more advanced than it was 25,000 years ago. 25,000 years ago they had just created hyperdrives. They did not have shields. Their computers were mind-numbingly slow, by comparison with the ones available at the time of ANH. They did not have man-portable blaster weapons (beam tubes were not until Xim the Despot, and those were VERY heavy and uncomfortable). They were clearly nowhere near as developed. You assume that, because we have not seen many visible improvements from TPM to ANH, they must not be developing new technology. You ignore the fact that the prequels thusfar have focused on developed worlds while the original trilogy focused on primitive, out of the way planets, and you ignore the developments that have been elaborated on in the books (ie. Power storage, computing power, and armor).

Actually, I have read only one SW book, (Darksaber). It was utterly forgettable, and I doubt I'll ever read another one. Nothing personal, but you really can't assume that everyone here is the die-hard SW fan that most of you clearly are.

I don't assume that everyone here has read every EU book like I have (actually, I haven't read the comics), but I do assume that they are reasonably familiar with the major aspects of the EU. You did assume that because hyperdrives have been around for 25,000 years there has been no technological development since then. That was quite obviously not true. In fact, it's not even true in the prequels to the original trilogy. You can see the development of cybernetics from Anakin's arm to Lobot's computer and Luke's mechanical hand. That technology was developed in only a few decades!

[His Divine Shadow]

Baseless? They've been using the same propulsion system for 25 thousand years!

Their FTL system has been the same for 25k years? Oh WOW! That means every last other technology was invented then and never progressed again, incredible, why did I only realize this NOW!
Note, it doesn't matter if it's true for their STL system either.

Not only that, after 25 thousand years, they're still identical to 20th century Terrans! It's not just their technology that's stagnated, their biology has flatlined as well!

Hardly any reason for them to look any different given their habitats, and possible genetic technology to keep them fresh from degrading from being exposed to a hitech society.

Now not to discount MoO's statement based on the books, but increases in efficiency and power of 25 millennia don't constitute a very impressive level of advancement, when you think about it, do they?

Many increases and efficency in base techs have expanded yes, but whats your proof that everything they had was developed 25k years ago and for some reason stopped then?
Also, you have any idea of how fucking absurd that is?

And there is proof that tech moved forward and entirely new techs where discovered along the way, like shields and beam weaponry and so on.

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

WHAT? SW technology is clearly much more advanced than it was 25,000 years ago. 25,000 years ago they had just created hyperdrives. They did not have shields. Their computers were mind-numbingly slow, by comparison with the ones available at the time of ANH. They did not have man-portable blaster weapons (beam tubes were not until Xim the Despot, and those were VERY heavy and uncomfortable). They were clearly nowhere near as developed. You assume that, because we have not seen many visible improvements from TPM to ANH, they must not be developing new technology. You ignore the fact that the prequels thusfar have focused on developed worlds while the original trilogy focused on primitive, out of the way planets, and you ignore the developments that have been elaborated on in the books (ie. Power storage, computing power, and armor).

Actually, I have read only one SW book, (Darksaber). It was utterly forgettable, and I doubt I'll ever read another one. Nothing personal, but you really can't assume that everyone here is the die-hard SW fan that most of you clearly are.

I don't assume that everyone here has read every EU book like I have (actually, I haven't read the comics), but I do assume that they are reasonably familiar with the major aspects of the EU. You did assume that because hyperdrives have been around for 25,000 years there has been no technological development since then. That was quite obviously not true. In fact, it's not even true in the prequels to the original trilogy. You can see the development of cybernetics from Anakin's arm to Lobot's computer and Luke's mechanical hand. That technology was developed in only a few decades!

Okay, granted they've made some strides in cybernetics. But some of those things aren't even decades more advanced than what's available to us now; witness artificial legs with processors that "learn" the users walking style and even allow their users to run. I'm sure you've also seen the recent (July or August) issue of WIRED detailing Patient Alpha and the Dobelle Artificial Vision System. But my point is that they are essentially only refining technology that was created millennia ago; genuinely new technological development is (with a few exceptions) virtually nonexistent.

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

Baseless? They've been using the same propulsion system for 25 thousand years!

Their FTL system has been the same for 25k years? Oh WOW! That means every last other technology was invented then and never progressed again, incredible, why did I only realize this NOW!
Note, it doesn't matter if it's true for their STL system either.

Not only that, after 25 thousand years, they're still identical to 20th century Terrans! It's not just their technology that's stagnated, their biology has flatlined as well!

Hardly any reason for them to look any different given their habitats, and possible genetic technology to keep them fresh from degrading from being exposed to a hitech society.

Now not to discount MoO's statement based on the books, but increases in efficiency and power of 25 millennia don't constitute a very impressive level of advancement, when you think about it, do they?

Many increases and efficency in base techs have expanded yes, but whats your proof that everything they had was developed 25k years ago and for some reason stopped then?
Also, you have any idea of how fucking absurd that is?

And there is proof that tech moved forward and entirely new techs where discovered along the way, like shields and beam weaponry and so on.

Okay, I'll concede this much: I don't have proof that this is the case. But given the information I have regarding Imperial Technology, which so far comes from Darth Wong's site, that is the impression I have received. If you have source material which will disabuse me of this impression, I'll certainly follow up, because such stagnation does indeed strike me as absurd.

[His Divine Shadow]

There are several EU references to old time battles before shields and modern weapons and tactics and so on, old weapons that where the precursors to modern blasters and so on.
You can see the timeline at theforce.net

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

There are several EU references to old time battles before shields and modern weapons and tactics and so on, old weapons that where the precursors to modern blasters and so on.
You can see the timeline at theforce.net

Thanks, I'll have a look.

[Master of Ossus]

Okay, granted they've made some strides in cybernetics. But some of those things aren't even decades more advanced than what's available to us now; witness artificial legs with processors that "learn" the users walking style and even allow their users to run. I'm sure you've also seen the recent (July or August) issue of WIRED detailing Patient Alpha and the Dobelle Artificial Vision System. But my point is that they are essentially only refining technology that was created millennia ago; genuinely new technological development is (with a few exceptions) virtually nonexistent.

Same with Geordi's visor. Who cares? The point is that they have not only created new technology, but also improved vastly on already existing technologies. They have constructed shields, beam weapons, and many other advances since the birth of the hyperdrive. Incidentally, people have been using the wheel for well over 5,000 years. Does that make us primitive in that we have been unable to come up with something better? Of course not. Our dependence on the wheel is largely due to physical limitations. The wheel is one of the simplest, most efficient shapes for moving things. SW ran into many of the same limitations. The fact that they are still developing new technologies in spite of these limitations is in many ways extraordinary.

[Master of Ossus]

There are several EU references to old time battles before shields and modern weapons and tactics and so on, old weapons that where the precursors to modern blasters and so on.
You can see the timeline at theforce.net

Thanks, I'll have a look.

Or you could use The Essential Guide to Chronology. Incidentally, cloaking devices are also new technology.

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

There are several EU references to old time battles before shields and modern weapons and tactics and so on, old weapons that where the precursors to modern blasters and so on.
You can see the timeline at theforce.net

Thanks, I'll have a look.

Or you could use The Essential Guide to Chronology. Incidentally, cloaking devices are also new technology.

Incidentally, I've read about the Imperial Cloading Device in the SWEGWT, and I get the impression that the Crystal Gravity Trap (CGT) wouldn't be all that effective against small cloaked ships, since it relies on gravity detection to pick up cloaked vessels. Would something the size of a SF scoutship trip it?

[Master of Ossus]

Its exact capabilities are unclear, however small ships in SW do not have cloaking devices. In theory, it should be able to detect anything with mass. Practically it is not clear how large a ship needs to be, but the CGT can detect ships the size of frigates or corvettes, for sure. Those have far larger masses than starfighters, but it represents an incredible degree of precision that they can identify ships using such a method.

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

Its exact capabilities are unclear, however small ships in SW do not have cloaking devices. In theory, it should be able to detect anything with mass. Practically it is not clear how large a ship needs to be, but the CGT can detect ships the size of frigates or corvettes, for sure. Those have far larger masses than starfighters, but it represents an incredible degree of precision that they can identify ships using such a method.

From that, I get the impression that a small strike group of cloaked Defiant-class ships, if running in a sufficiently loose formation (so as to avoid the possibility of a cumulative gravity effect) could approach Imperial bases undetected -- even if the bases had CGT. Just a thought.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

You do know that the Defiant is 120 metres long, right? That's not exactly tiny.

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

You do know that the Defiant is 120 metres long, right? That's not exactly tiny.

No, it's not -- but I'm guessing it's smaller than a NR Frigate, right?

[His Divine Shadow]

I find this quote interesting:

Cloaking fields, as they are developing now, cannot protect against CGTs (crystal gravitational traps) since the mass of the protected vessel is not affected by the field. As most of these expensive sensors are Imperial property, the need for mass baffling seems unnecessary.

(ref: Imperial Sourcebook)

Seems to imply they could incoroporate it, if it was really neccesary.

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

I find this quote interesting:

Cloaking fields, as they are developing now, cannot protect against CGTs (crystal gravitational traps) since the mass of the protected vessel is not affected by the field. As most of these expensive sensors are Imperial property, the need for mass baffling seems unnecessary.

(ref: Imperial Sourcebook)

Seems to imply they could incoroporate it, if it was really neccesary.

Hmm... more than likely the CGT is a safeguard against defectors stealing ISDs and trying to get away by cloaking... or maybe that's just what I would do...

[Master of Ossus]

Its exact capabilities are unclear, however small ships in SW do not have cloaking devices. In theory, it should be able to detect anything with mass. Practically it is not clear how large a ship needs to be, but the CGT can detect ships the size of frigates or corvettes, for sure. Those have far larger masses than starfighters, but it represents an incredible degree of precision that they can identify ships using such a method.

From that, I get the impression that a small strike group of cloaked Defiant-class ships, if running in a sufficiently loose formation (so as to avoid the possibility of a cumulative gravity effect) could approach Imperial bases undetected -- even if the bases had CGT. Just a thought.

The ease with which a CGT scanner can detect the smallest ships mounting cloaking devices (if you look at the device itself in EGWT, it's frickin TINY, less than ten meters across!) indicates that the CGT would probably be capable of detecting even the tiny mass of the Defiant. This is an amazingly sophisticated device. Remember that Carrack class cruisers are not the most advanced ships in terms of power generation/storage, and the CGT scanner could pick them up easily. This provides circumstantial evidence that the cloaking device could be mounted on smaller, but potentially less powerful craft, and in turn provides circumstantial evidence that the CGT could pick up the Defiant. Note that the Defiant is approximately half the length of a Carrack Cruiser, and its mass should be approximately one fourth as large, assuming similar mass:size ratios.

[Master of Ossus]

I find this quote interesting:

Cloaking fields, as they are developing now, cannot protect against CGTs (crystal gravitational traps) since the mass of the protected vessel is not affected by the field. As most of these expensive sensors are Imperial property, the need for mass baffling seems unnecessary.

(ref: Imperial Sourcebook)

Seems to imply they could incoroporate it, if it was really neccesary.

Hmm... more than likely the CGT is a safeguard against defectors stealing ISDs and trying to get away by cloaking... or maybe that's just what I would do...

ISD's are virtually impossible to steal, anyway. If a force was determined to steal an ISD, and had enough forces to do so, there would probably be very little to do about the matter even if you had prior warning. Remember that an ISD is capable of providing its own protection as it escapes, so a cloaking device would likely be unnecessary for such matters (the ISD could probably blast its way clear, even without such a system). Also, an ISD maintains THOUSANDS of stormtroopers and tens of thousands of other personnel. Almost no one, short of a sector government, would have the resources necessary to steal it.

[HemlockGrey]

Hat, definetly.

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

Well, I was thinking more along the lines of an ISDs commander and senior staff deciding to defect with their ship... but good point; they wouldn't have much need to cloak and run, unless the Imperials sent a strike group after them to either retake the ISD or destroy it before its crew could get away with it.

Still, this begs the question: Why the hell did the Imperials ever see the need to develop a cloaking device in the first place?

[Master of Ossus]

Well, I was thinking more along the lines of an ISDs commander and senior staff deciding to defect with their ship... but good point; they wouldn't have much need to cloak and run, unless the Imperials sent a strike group after them to either retake the ISD or destroy it before its crew could get away with it.

Still, this begs the question: Why the hell did the Imperials ever see the need to develop a cloaking device in the first place?

That was pretty well explained. The main strategic assets in SW are planets. Planets are usually defended by planetary shields, which are virtually impossible to crack, even for the largest capital ships. This necessitates either superweapons like the DS, lengthy campaigns with hundreds of capital ships, or something altogether different. Cloaking devices were a good answer.

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

Well, I was thinking more along the lines of an ISDs commander and senior staff deciding to defect with their ship... but good point; they wouldn't have much need to cloak and run, unless the Imperials sent a strike group after them to either retake the ISD or destroy it before its crew could get away with it.

Still, this begs the question: Why the hell did the Imperials ever see the need to develop a cloaking device in the first place?

That was pretty well explained. The main strategic assets in SW are planets. Planets are usually defended by planetary shields, which are virtually impossible to crack, even for the largest capital ships. This necessitates either superweapons like the DS, lengthy campaigns with hundreds of capital ships, or something altogether different. Cloaking devices were a good answer.

IOW, sneak up on them while their pants are down, then kick their asses. Gotcha.