"Is there a God?", my niece asked.

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2003-12-24 05:40pm

Darth Wong wrote:It's also diplo-babble. The addendum is just there for the sake of diplomacy; it's not as if a kid really needs someone to tell him that there are people out there who believe in God. That fact is simply inescapable in modern society.

Correct. Still, with young children it doesn't hurt.

No, it's just re-phrased to be more polite to people who believe. The kid does not learn anything more from it than he does from the simple answer "no". In a society where the majority (>90%) believe in some kind of God, it might be news to a kid that somebody does not believe, particularly if that lack of belief is expressed in an unambiguous and unapologetic fashion. The fact that most people believe is not going to be news to this kid.

No, it should not be.

Absolutely, which is why a kid should be exposed to all viewpoints. I allowed my kids to be exposed to various forms of Christian indoctrination such as Sunday School and the Veggie Tales cartoons for that reason. But what you are saying is not that the kid should be exposed to multiple viewpoints, but that atheists should express their viewpoint in a weak, almost apologetic fashion.

You can bet your ass that no Church pastor says "I personally believe in a God although there are lots of people in the world who don't, and there is no real evidence for his existence", so why is an atheist obligated to express his disbelief in a weak fashion?

On the first page, you didn't say that you'd say "I don't personally believe in God." You said you'd say "No, God is make-believe." There is a big difference there. In one, you are exposing the kid to a different belief. In the other, you are saying you are right and everyone else is wrong.

If you just said "I don't believe in God", I would find that to be a perfectly acceptable answer.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-12-25 02:18am

Howedar wrote:On the first page, you didn't say that you'd say "I don't personally believe in God." You said you'd say "No, God is make-believe." There is a big difference there.

Yes, the second statement provides the only rational conclusion which can be drawn from the evidence. It is no less reasonable than stating that the Earth revolves around the Sun due to gravity rather than being pushed in circles by fairies.

In one, you are exposing the kid to a different belief.

No, in the first statement I am wording the statement in such a manner as to make it seem less like a logical conclusion and more like a personal conviction. In the second one, I am not sugar-coating anything.

In the other, you are saying you are right and everyone else is wrong.

I'm stating the only logical conclusion which follows from the evidence. Fact and logic do not bow to popular opinion, no matter how much you seem to wish otherwise.

If you just said "I don't believe in God", I would find that to be a perfectly acceptable answer.

Acceptable from what standpoint? Religious sensibilities or accuracy?

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-12-25 02:24am

Stravo wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:It is your place to give an honest answer to a direct question. If your brother censored himself to avoid offending you, he'd be doing you a favour. It's not a moral obligation.
Bringing back the Santa analogy, if your brother's kids believed in Santa and asked you if there was one would you say no there isn't?

If it appears to me that they doubt the myth and want my honest input, I will give it. I've already fessed up to my own son about Santa.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2003-12-25 02:38am

This thread is almost entirely filled with fucking bullshit. Either its religious nutjobs who cram religion down their childrens throats or its atheist nutjobs who cram atheism down their childrens throats.

If I have a child I will raise them with my values but I will teach critical thinking skills. That way they can make their own informed decisions and I won't force religion or non-religion on them.

Such fucking hypocrits.

"I hate religious people forcing their crap down my throat, thats why all I teach my child is the truth that religion is wrong."

"I have atheist people forcing their crap down my throat, thats why all I teach my child is the truth that religion is correct."

Its the same fucking argument for both sides and your all a bunch of hypocrital assholes right now.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-12-25 02:57am

Alyeska wrote:This thread is almost entirely filled with fucking bullshit. Either its religious nutjobs who cram religion down their childrens throats or its atheist nutjobs who cram atheism down their childrens throats.

The only one filled with bullshit here is you. First you rant at people for talking about their Christmas gifts, now you rant at us because it's apparently "ramming something down our childrens' throats" to give straight answers to direct questions. What the fuck is your problem tonight? Did Santa leave a lump of coal in your stocking?

If I have a child I will raise them with my values but I will teach critical thinking skills. That way they can make their own informed decisions and I won't force religion or non-religion on them.

And you feel that giving a straight answer somehow precludes the teaching of critical thinking skills or a proper explanation of WHY there is no reason to believe in God? Lovely false dilemma fallacy

Such fucking hypocrits.

Such a fucking whiner. I don't know who shit in your coffee this morning, but you are going to wake up tomorrow and realize that you were spewing for no good reason tonight.

"I hate religious people forcing their crap down my throat, thats why all I teach my child is the truth that religion is wrong."

Interesting way of interpreting my choice to let my kids go to Sunday school, asshole.

"I have atheist people forcing their crap down my throat, thats why all I teach my child is the truth that religion is correct."

That's not actually Stravo's argument; he is treating it as a parents' rights issue. I disagree with him, but you are oversimplifying.

Its the same fucking argument for both sides and your all a bunch of hypocrital assholes right now.

You can't even be bothered to see exactly what people are saying in your haste to cast your holier-than-thou condemnations. Get over yourself.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2003-12-25 10:56am

Which would make you feel like a better parent? The fact that your children believe in the same thing as you because thats all you ever taught them, or the fact that your children believe in the same thing as you because that is the conclussion they came to because of their education in critical thinking? The only method I see parents talking about here is to turn their children into drones, exact copies of the parents thinking.

The other thing I see here is a fucking self fullfilling prophecy. Both sides hate having the other sides agenda crammed down their throats. So what is their answer? Do the exact same fucking thing. That of course pisses both sides off even more which ensures that both sides will continue trying to cram their agenda down the throats of the other side.

Keevan_Colton · Post by **Keevan_Colton** » 2003-12-25 11:19am

Alyeska wrote:Which would make you feel like a better parent? The fact that your children believe in the same thing as you because thats all you ever taught them, or the fact that your children believe in the same thing as you because that is the conclussion they came to because of their education in critical thinking? The only method I see parents talking about here is to turn their children into drones, exact copies of the parents thinking.

Did santa give someone a piece of coal?

You seem to have the wrong end of the stick here, and are swinging it rather forcefully. The debate is over whether we should tell children what we "believe" or what the evidence shows when they are looking to think for themselves.

Neither side here disagrees with the idea that children should eventually make up thier own mind, the debate is over whether they do so on faith or logic when the time comes.

The other thing I see here is a fucking self fullfilling prophecy. Both sides hate having the other sides agenda crammed down their throats. So what is their answer? Do the exact same fucking thing. That of course pisses both sides off even more which ensures that both sides will continue trying to cram their agenda down the throats of the other side.

How wonderfully insightful.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-12-25 11:45am

Alyeska wrote:Which would make you feel like a better parent? The fact that your children believe in the same thing as you because thats all you ever taught them, or the fact that your children believe in the same thing as you because that is the conclussion they came to because of their education in critical thinking? The only method I see parents talking about here is to turn their children into drones, exact copies of the parents thinking.

Once again, which part of "I let my kids attend Sunday School and don't have a problem with relatives mentioning God" were you too fucking stupid to understand?

The other thing I see here is a fucking self fullfilling prophecy. Both sides hate having the other sides agenda crammed down their throats. So what is their answer? Do the exact same fucking thing. That of course pisses both sides off even more which ensures that both sides will continue trying to cram their agenda down the throats of the other side.

The only thing I see here is a fucking moron who's so hot to spout his holier-than-thou moral condemnations that he can't even be bothered to see whether they apply. Blow me, asshole.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2003-12-25 12:06pm

You let your kids attend sunday school, but then you turn right around and tell them its all wrong. Thats not trying to let them decide for themselves.

I remember the little bit where you described letting them go to sunday school and when you drove them home they asked if it was real and you said it was just as fake as Santa. All your doing is reinforcing your beliefs on them without letting them think it through.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2003-12-25 12:07pm

Keevan_Colton wrote:Did santa give someone a piece of coal?

Check the presents thread

Keevan_Colton · Post by **Keevan_Colton** » 2003-12-25 12:10pm

Alyeska wrote:You let your kids attend sunday school, but then you turn right around and tell them its all wrong. Thats not trying to let them decide for themselves.

Ah of course....

I mean, religion would never lie would it?
Perhaps your idea of teaching critical reasoning skills doesnt include pointing out what is bullshit and what isnt, but, it certainly aids the process.

I remember the little bit where you described letting them go to sunday school and when you drove them home they asked if it was real and you said it was just as fake as Santa. All your doing is reinforcing your beliefs on them without letting them think it through.

Or, it could be there is about as much evidence for the existence of Santa as there is for God. How's about we take the classic invisible, massless, undetectable dragon hiding in the garage....would you say calling it as fake as santa was reinforcing your beliefs?

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2003-12-25 12:13pm

Oh for crying outloud. You just don't get it. The child isn't learning the "truth" by self discovery and inteligence, they are merely absorbing what the parent tells them. You don't want your child to believe in god or religion, then teach them to be critical thinkers and skeptics, don't indoctrinate them.

Keevan_Colton · Post by **Keevan_Colton** » 2003-12-25 12:15pm

Alyeska wrote:Oh for crying outloud. You just don't get it. The child isn't learning the "truth" by self discovery and inteligence, they are merely absorbing what the parent tells them. You don't want your child to believe in god or religion, then teach them to be critical thinkers and skeptics, don't indoctrinate them.

Teaching that things without evidence are bullshit baseless claims isnt a way of teaching them to look for evidence before accepting things?

Post by **haas mark** » 2003-12-25 12:21pm

Keevan_Colton wrote:
Alyeska wrote:Oh for crying outloud. You just don't get it. The child isn't learning the "truth" by self discovery and inteligence, they are merely absorbing what the parent tells them. You don't want your child to believe in god or religion, then teach them to be critical thinkers and skeptics, don't indoctrinate them.
Teaching that things without evidence are bullshit baseless claims isnt a way of teaching them to look for evidence before accepting things?

I think he's getting at teaching them to be agnostics.

~ver

Keevan_Colton · Post by **Keevan_Colton** » 2003-12-25 12:23pm

verilon wrote:I think he's getting at teaching them to be agnostics.

~ver

Ah, teaching them the inability to come to a decision lest it prove to be wrong even if there is evidence for only one possibility....what a wonderful thing to do to your children....

That'd be really making them into drones, nice little PC ones.

Post by **haas mark** » 2003-12-25 12:27pm

Keevan_Colton wrote:
verilon wrote:I think he's getting at teaching them to be agnostics.

~ver
Ah, teaching them the inability to come to a decision lest it prove to be wrong even if there is evidence for only one possibility....what a wonderful thing to do to your children....

Haha.

True that, true that, but that's the only thing I can think of. It just seems to me that neither is wrong nor right. As far as I gather, Wong is saying he lets his children go to Sunday School, but he doesn't say he forces them to go - thereby letting them make their own decision. -shrugs-

[quote[That'd be really making them into drones, nice little PC ones.

[/quote]

Supremely evil.

And yes, Santa gave my brother a piece of coal a few years back, to answer that question. ;P

~ver

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-12-25 01:25pm

Alyeska wrote:You let your kids attend sunday school, but then you turn right around and tell them its all wrong. Thats not trying to let them decide for themselves.

You're a fucking moron. Now I can't even talk to my own kids or tell them what I think? "Letting them decide for themselves" means not sheltering them. It does not mean you avoid ever telling them what you think, dumb-fuck.

I remember the little bit where you described letting them go to sunday school and when you drove them home they asked if it was real and you said it was just as fake as Santa. All your doing is reinforcing your beliefs on them without letting them think it through.

Ah, I see. So parents should never tell their kids anything. Right. Get back to me when you have kids of your own, you self-righteous little snot-nosed shit.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-12-25 01:27pm

Alyeska wrote:Oh for crying outloud. You just don't get it. The child isn't learning the "truth" by self discovery and inteligence, they are merely absorbing what the parent tells them.

Do you think children are fucking idiots? The first thing they ask is "why", you moron. And then you explain. By your moronic definition, we shouldn't send kids to school because schools tell them what to think instead of just leaving them to their own devices. Maybe we should adopt the childraising method of dumping kids in the fucking forest and letting them fend for themselves

You don't want your child to believe in god or religion, then teach them to be critical thinkers and skeptics, don't indoctrinate them.

When your definition of "indoctrination" means that you tell your kids that there's no God while freely allowing them to be exposed to alternate viewpoints, you're guilty of the mother of all black/white fallacies.

The difference between the religious approach and the scientific approach is simple: when the kid inevitably asks why I say there's no God, I give a logical explanation. The religious person appeals to authority. It is hardly hypocritical of a scientist to state the conclusion and then offer the logical reasoning behind it if asked. Do you carefully say "I believe that the Earth revolves around the Sun, but some people don't" if a kid asks you? Do you offer disclaimers when somebody asks what causes rain, and you give the scientific explanation rather than saying that God does it?

Alyeska has just demonstrated again the cardinal rule of parenting: the most confident parenting expert in the world is invariably a snot-nosed teenager who's never had any kids of his own.

Lord Woodlouse · Post by **Lord Woodlouse** » 2003-12-26 04:00pm

I personally believe in God, but my answer would simply be "I don't know, but I personally BELIEVE He does".

For a kid of nine though, it's hard to go into more detailed soul searching that that kind of thing entails. It's not simply an either/or thing, really.

Slartibartfast · Post by **Slartibartfast** » 2003-12-26 04:22pm

Darth Wong wrote:Do you think children are fucking idiots?

Of course not, they're almost like human beings.