Return of the King Discussion Thread (MAJOR SPOILERS!)

[Grand Moff Yenchin]

Mostly he was annoyed about the influence of the French romantic tradition. (King Arthur, as seen in legend, is entirely a creation of twelfth century France)

Nordic and Anglo Saxon myths are the ones he drew upon to create Arda, it's people, and it's storytelling style..

I forgot the source, but he also mentioned that Arthur was a myth of England, and he wanted to write a myth for the "English speaking".


My thoughts of the ROTK movie:

Story: Besides the messy beginning, it was handled great.

Characters: Built great, Arwen was, well, I considered her an extra.

Battles: Very well done, unfortunately the atmosphere seemed to be built weaker than Helm's Deep. Helm's Deep made me concern of the battle, the both battles in ROTK didn't, though I liked the Rohirrim charging (which might hint the reason of my thoughts on ROTK, probably.)

Minas Tirith: A big hand to the visuals, the whole trilogy constructed lots of amazing locations, and the final big meal is Minas Tirith.

Ending: For a movie it was handled not so good since it "ended" here and there (Coronation, stop, Narration, stop, Frodo and friends toasting, stop, Sam's wedding, stop, Frodo finishing his book, stop, off to the West, phew!) , for the big picture it might be better. It was said that PJ originally let Cate Blanchette (sp) narrate the ending after the Coronation. I'd prefer something like that for this film and leave the long ending for the EE.

Other unforgettable scenes:

Lighting the beacon (Question: Why were there beacons at the seaside? I thought between Rohan and Gondor was only mountains.)

Sam and Frodo struggling up to Mt. Doom.

Joke:
Oliphants taken down in AT-AT fashion (Legolas = Luke, Eowyn = Wedge)

[Crown]

I saw it last night ... I have to disagree with some of the praise heaped on this movie.

The Saruman scene was sorely missed, out of no where the rock (palantir) is at Pippin's feet, for those who haven't read the book, nor drawn the conclusion that this is the same rock that was shown in FotR and TTT, they are looking at it going ... wtf?

I guess I will have to wait for the extended edition for Faramir to finally be given the screen time that not only he as a character, but David Whenam as an actor deserves.

The army of the dead ... eh ... it made the victory cheap a little. They were just a little ... too much. But I conceed that it has been a while since I read the books, so I don't count too much of an issue.

Arwen, while I usually don't like too much deviation from the 'true' story (i.e. that in the books), anyone who thinks that the story of Arwen and Aragorn wasn't important to Tolkien, had better flip to the Appendices, where a full third to a half are devoted soley to their back story and end story. I believe that Tolkien even wrote letters to that affect.

Out of 5? 4.

[StarshipTitanic]

Sorry, I should have said "cheap cop-out." I felt no tension at all during any battle. Not because there were heroes and I knew the heroes wouldn't die, but because I knew that the battle would always end in a crushing victory because of some magical happening. I guess I shouldn't have expected Lord of the Rings to change my mind about fantasy, like my friends claimed it would...

Yeah, because Tolkien wrote 700 pages of novel just for the heroes to be crushed and Sauron to emerge victorious...

Try actually reading what I say, moron. I didn't say the final battle, I said every battle.

[Dooey Jo]

4) WHERE THE HELL WAS CHRISTOPHER LEE IN THE CREDITS? YOU LISTED SEAN BEAN, WHY NOT HIM??

Because Sean Bean could actually be seen for half a second in one of those flash-backs. Why did they put flash-backs in the movie, I wonder. That wasn't necessary. PJ complained about the length of the movie, why didn't he just cut the flashbacks? And the ending was too long. They could have let it end when everyone bowed to the hobbits, and put the Saruman scene back instead of the rest of the ending. Same length, better movie, I think.

But at least the battles were great. Well the tactics could have been a lot better but it looked great. But what happened to the pirates?
And I heard two "charlie" screams. There's usually just one per movie.


And someone should make some calculations on how hot the lava in Orodruin actually is. Considering Smeagol could sink completely into it without burning up, it can't be that hot. The One Ring might be easier to destroy than they first thought...

[Dooey Jo]

(Why is there no edit button? Grrr...)

Wasn't that Haldir standing next to Elrond at the coronation? It sure looked like him, but they had him killed at Helm's Deep in TTT (not in the book though).

[Vympel]

It's in the Extended Edition, isn't it? Or was that what you were referring to?

It's in the theatrical cut as well. Baically, Sam says Boromir died because he tried to take the ring from Frodo, which is technically true, but total bullshit at the same time. Sam wasn't even there.

[Kuja]

But what happened to the pirates?

Aragorn and the Army of the Dead wiped em out and took over their ships.

It's in the theatrical cut as well. Baically, Sam says Boromir died because he tried to take the ring from Frodo, which is technically true, but total bullshit at the same time. Sam wasn't even there.[b/]

So it's out of the question for Frodo to have told him about it?

[D.Turtle]

Frodo also wasn't there.

Sam and Frodo thought that Boromir was still alive - until Faramir said he wasn't.

[Vympel]

Frodo also wasn't there.

Sam and Frodo thought that Boromir was still alive - until Faramir said he wasn't.

Exactly. Sam simply took what Frodo told him and took a leap of logic, sullying Faramir's memory of Boromir when he had no authority to. I didn't like it.

[Stofsk]

Saw it just a couple of hours ago. I liked it very much, though there were scenes in it I wish PJ never put in (Like the reforging of Aragorn's sword) plus I would've been happy if it ended with the scene in Minas Tirith where Aragorn kneels before the Hobbits, and everyone else follows suit.

Another thing I noticed that shit me - Merry was at the Black Gate, when he should have been recuperating from the battle. Not that it really matters, but just a small flaw that stood out.

All in all, 4/5. I loved that last scene with Frodo standing over the pit, dangling the ring over the larva - then he turns around and looks at Sam: "The ring is MINE." And the look of utter hopelessness on Sam's face was incredible. That made my blood pump, I can tell you.

[Tsyroc]

I didn't particularlly care for the stop start stop ending but I hope and expect that it will be better on the Extended DVD.

I really didn't like the "spot light" eye of Sauron. I think that in trying to make something obvious to dull-witted viewers or people who just aren't paying attention they ended up putting something rather cheezy into the film.

Most of the rest of the film I really liked. One thing especially was Gollum falling into the volcano with the ring. He was so happy as he fell and then after he's in the lava (presumably the ring was protecting him some) he struggles to protect the ring from the lava for as long as he can. Just another great example at how the ring can take someone over completely.

[mauldooku]

I didn't particularlly care for the stop start stop ending but I hope and expect that it will be better on the Extended DVD.

I really didn't like the "spot light" eye of Sauron. I think that in trying to make something obvious to dull-witted viewers or people who just aren't paying attention they ended up putting something rather cheezy into the film.

Most of the rest of the film I really liked. One thing especially was Gollum falling into the volcano with the ring. He was so happy as he fell and then after he's in the lava (presumably the ring was protecting him some) he struggles to protect the ring from the lava for as long as he can. Just another great example at how the ring can take someone over completely.

Agreed on all points. I've hated the depiction of Sauron throughout the whole series: First, you have the lame suit of armor that makes him look like a deranged '60s low budget sci fi villain. Then, when his physical body is destroyed, he's a big fucking red searchlight pinned on the top of Barad-dur. I mean, what the hell?

I understand the need to make a more 'visual' villain, but...ugh, the books just did it so much better, with Sauron as a spirit, one that you couldn't actually see/physically interact with. Instead, the whole 'eye' referred to Sauron's piercing ability to invade people mentally.

</Rant> Otherwise: Holy hell, amazing movie. The only 'serious' problems I have are the characterizations of Denethor and Faramir.

[Tsyroc]

Agreed on all points. I've hated the depiction of Sauron throughout the whole series: First, you have the lame suit of armor that makes him look like a deranged '60s low budget sci fi villain. Then, when his physical body is destroyed, he's a big fucking red searchlight pinned on the top of Barad-dur. I mean, what the hell?

I wondered a bit about his physical representation in the first movie as well. It had been a long time since I read any of Tolkein's books so I didn't remember the ring giving Sauron such physical power, although I guess it could just be his own inate power.

I understand the need to make a more 'visual' villain, but...ugh, the books just did it so much better, with Sauron as a spirit, one that you couldn't actually see/physically interact with. Instead, the whole 'eye' referred to Sauron's piercing ability to invade people mentally.

</Rant> Otherwise: Holy hell, amazing movie. The only 'serious' problems I have are the characterizations of Denethor and Faramir.

I didn't mind the burning eye when it was just stationary between the spikes of Baradur but when it started moving and giving the "spot light" beam it started to bug me. I thought that dumbed things down too much.
That Aragorn's forces attacking caused the forces of Mordor to advance, leaving Sam & Frodo a relatively free path to Mt. Doom should have been good enough for most viewers. They didn't need to have the "spotlight eye" nearly seeing Sam & Frodo and then changing directions. It seemed a little cheezy and very dumbed down for what we've come to expect in these three movies.

[Iceberg]

And someone should make some calculations on how hot the lava in Orodruin actually is. Considering Smeagol could sink completely into it without burning up, it can't be that hot. The One Ring might be easier to destroy than they first thought...

Chalk it up to artistic license (and perhaps the power of the Ring protecting him for a few brief moments). Gollum should have instantaneously burnt to ash and the ash should have equally as quickly vaporized on contact with any magma, let alone magma that's hot enough to run and splash like water (which we saw).

[zombie84]

I always assumed that the rings destruction in Mount Doom wasnt due to any sort of physical heat but rather some magical quality that Mount Doom possessed--it can only be destroyed from the fires from whence it was created. Remember the scenes from Fellowship--Gandalf tosses it into the furnace, which doesnt even mark it, and immediatly after it is still cold to the touch; later Gimli attempts to smash it with his axe, resulting in the weapon shattering and ring remaining unmarked. The lava of mount Doom does not depend on any physical qualities of temperature, it is a symbolic thing.

[mauldooku]

I always assumed that the rings destruction in Mount Doom wasnt due to any sort of physical heat but rather some magical quality that Mount Doom possessed--it can only be destroyed from the fires from whence it was created. Remember the scenes from Fellowship--Gandalf tosses it into the furnace, which doesnt even mark it, and immediatly after it is still cold to the touch; later Gimli attempts to smash it with his axe, resulting in the weapon shattering and ring remaining unmarked. The lava of mount Doom does not depend on any physical qualities of temperature, it is a symbolic thing.

Let's not get into this debate again....

Do a search on the archive board if you're interested.

[Knife]

Saw it a week ago. Wheeew. Great movie. When I got up to leave, my butt was numb and my knee's didn't work but I'd do it again to see it again.

That said, I did have issues. Most if not all have been mentioned here.

1. Didn't like the Suaron light house effect on the eye. Dumb. If you must, just have the eye moving around.

2. Didn't like the over emotional Hobbits. Stop crying and cowboy the fuck up, would you! I get it. Your tired, scared, desperate, and exhausted. Walk up the fucking mountain please. All those tears are dehydrateing you and you ran out of water.

3. Could the ending have possibly been streached out any longer. Geesh. I know they wanted to show the recovery in Gondor, the return to shire, the finishing of the book, and the whole Avalon scene at the end but god damn pick one and focus on it and let the rest slide alittle.

4. As with alot of you, Arawens sudden connection to the fate of the Ring struck me as WRONG. They could have kept her in it, like in the end with Aragorn but the little drama of her slowly dying. Blah.

With these small quirks aside, twas a great movie. Only 12 months to go until the EE, if the last two are any judge.

[Vympel]

Just saw it today, I'll only comment on what I thought was bad, everything else that I excluded is by default good/awesome.

1. Witch-King: he was supposed to be on a horse riding out of Minas Morgul, and changed to his Fell Beast after his confrontation with Gandalf. Unfortunately, the confrontation with Gandalf doesn't happen.

2. Sam, Frodo and Gollum/Smeagol: the sub-plot where Gollum poisons Frodo against Sam is a complete waste of valuable screen time, totally against the theme of their relationship from the book, and all in all, hopelessly crap. Nothing would have been lost by following the formula of the book, and more time could've been gained for more interesting things.

3. Denethor: goes from a stern, overly demanding father figure to a hopeless, power hungry, insane, not to mention disgusting, boor, who gets smacked around by Gandalf for good measure. He doesn't even light the damn beacons. Totally unnecessary.

4. The endings: Jesus Christ. Peter Jackson lost it near the end, directing wise. Let's go through:

First: Eagles pick up Frodo and Sam. Fine. The fade out was unecessary, and overly long, and that's why it's here.

Second: the happy meeting at Minas Tirith.

Third: the coronation. At this point, it's getting a bit tiresome.

Fourth: Hobbits coming home. Fuck off. We are sick of this shit now. My friend needs to go to the loo as well. Badly.

Fifth: Wedding. Oh come on, WHO GIVES A FUCK.

Sixth: Harbor: ARRRRRRGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH. THIS IS TAKING FUCKING FOREVER.

Seventh: Sam walking back with wife and kids and co. DIE. DIE. DIE. DIE.

*the end*

THANK YOU MERCIFUL GOD!

The fourth, fifth and seventh should've been cut. Then maybe we would've had time for SARUMAN. Fucken ...

5. Eye of Sauron lighthouse: yes, we get it. If the fuckwits in the audience don't, who cares.

[Vympel]

And someone should make some calculations on how hot the lava in Orodruin actually is. Considering Smeagol could sink completely into it without burning up, it can't be that hot. The One Ring might be easier to destroy than they first thought...

My immediate thought was that the Ring was protecting Gollum as best it could. Not good enough unfortunately.

[DPDarkPrimus]

I think, really, the Eye of Saruon would have been handeled better if the eye would have been seen moving around just a bit, until it saw Frodo, and then it cast out a beam of light on him. That would have been cool.

[Knife]

I think, really, the Eye of Saruon would have been handeled better if the eye would have been seen moving around just a bit, until it saw Frodo, and then it cast out a beam of light on him. That would have been cool.

Hmm, thats exactly what I told my wife durring the film. She agreed.

[Anarchist Bunny]

I disagree with Vympel on the very end of the movie. 7th could have stayed. I liked that it ended the way in the book, "Well, I'm back".

[Vendetta]

Even as the biggest book-whore in the whole wide world, I would have been happy with it ending in Ithillien. Preferably before the whole damn fellowship showed up.

Without the sting in the tale* provided by Scouring (which doesn't, as some may tell you, show how war will change the home you wanted to return to, and thought was inviolate, but how war changes you, and how you can't find the peace you used to know before you left*), the scenes in Ithilien and Minas Tirith felt schmaltzy..

(*pun not entirely intended, but being drunk, it seems a good idea to leave it in there)

[Demiurge]

Even as the biggest book-whore in the whole wide world, I would have been happy with it ending in Ithillien. Preferably before the whole damn fellowship showed up.

Which part would that be?

[Vendetta]

When Frodo and Sam first wake up safe, before the bit where you reach for the sickbag as all the main characters file in one by one, in a horribly contrived scene.