Howie 'Sawdust' Dean finds Jesus!

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Post by haas mark »

Darth Wong wrote:
Joe wrote:Aly, get off your fucking soap box with your black and white bullshit. JFK was a practicing Catholic who in public strongly supported the separation of Church and State, and the Founding Fathers paid all kinds of lip service to Christianity in public while at the same time never really violating the establishment clause. You seem to be acting as if Howard Dean has already been elected to office and reinstated school prayer, abortion prohibition, and passed a ban on gay marriage just because he's spoken of religion favorably in public.
You'll have to forgive me if I take this "don't be an alarmist; it's just public lip service" argument with a grain of salt, since the same thing was being said about George W. Bush when he was running for office.
Yet Dubya condones the "Marriage Protection Week." :|

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Post by Durandal »

Alyrium Denryle wrote:That is it, I am withdrawing my support from Dr. Dean. I had hoped e would be the one person who didnt pander to religion.
Then you're just delusional, frankly. Any candidate who wants to stand a chance of winning is going to have to pander to religion eventually. All Dean said was that he was a Christian and proud of his tradition of religion being a personal, private matter. Will he mention God more often in his speeches as he moves further South? Of course. Has just about every other politician in the history of the country done this? Yes.

Furthermore, did you read anything in the article about Dean wanting to mix up church and state, and he does, in fact, give the impression that he believes Caesar's power and God's power are two different things, as stated in the article. You're overreacting. There's no such thing as the perfect candidate. Who are you going to vote for? Some third-party candidate? Great, that's one wasted vote. George W. Bush thanks you.
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Post by Crown »

Ah, not that I want to make this a bash Aly thread, but dude are you even allowed to vote yet? :wink:
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Post by Setzer »

If he's around my age, he'll be voting in the next election.

As a Christian, I view my religion as a means for evaluating myself.
I see to my own sins rather than the sins of others.
That's why I think laws in the USA should not be made on religious grounds.

Jimmy Carter was a Christian man, and rather well behaved from what I hear, no scandals or the like.

And given how he handled foreign policy, I'd prefer an atheist in office.

Your own life is the only one you can completely control, so it's the one you should primarily worry about. You can advise others based on your religious beliefs (or lack thereof) but you should never command on the same basis.
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Post by Axis Kast »

Last I checked, the United States was not a Christian theocracy, nor was it headed in that direction.

Politicans - Dean and Bush - both might make occassional statements in particular locations (i.e. during visits to centers of worship) about this or that element of faith, but neither has (or, in Dean's case, probably intends to) change the United States into some Bible-thumping bastion of right-wing fundamentalism.

Abortion is a heated issue even for those who don't go to church or temple or synagouge every Sunday. Some people abhor it because they still believe life is present fromt he moment the first cell forms inside the womb with or without the influence of religion.

Faith-based initiatives are meant to have a supplimentary effect. Bush and others must have realized that faith-based organizations are already prolific supporters of their local communities; it makes sense to devote more money to their efforts, since in the majority of cases, they don't discriminate in service.
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Post by Darth Wong »

Axis Kast wrote:Last I checked, the United States was not a Christian theocracy, nor was it headed in that direction.
I suppose Ashcroft, prayer days, the overt promotion of creationist literature by the government at the Grand Canyon, and "faith-based" charity money all escaped your attention :roll:
Abortion is a heated issue even for those who don't go to church or temple or synagouge every Sunday. Some people abhor it because they still believe life is present fromt he moment the first cell forms inside the womb with or without the influence of religion.
Bullshit, quite frankly. Among atheists, support for the "it's a baby from the moment of conception" viewpoint is almost insignificant. Atheists only differ on when it should be allowed through the term; very rarely will you find an atheist who thinks it should not be allowed at all.
Faith-based initiatives are meant to have a supplimentary effect. Bush and others must have realized that faith-based organizations are already prolific supporters of their local communities; it makes sense to devote more money to their efforts, since in the majority of cases, they don't discriminate in service.
Once again, you are full of shit as usual. So-called "faith-based charities" do not distinguish between "ministering" and helping people. They invariably try to do both at the same time, in varying proportions. So any government money sent to such an organization will be at least partly (if not mostly) used for proselytizing. Everyone knows this, and Bush knew it from day one, which is why he pushed for the initiative. Moreover, these organizations have been granted an exemption from the rule that federally funded organizations cannot practice religious discrimination in hiring. Of course they don't discriminate in service; they want to convert you, for fuck's sake.

As usual, you mindlessly defend every goddamned thing the Bush Administration does.
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Post by Axis Kast »

I suppose Ashcroft, prayer days, the overt promotion of creationist literature by the government at the Grand Canyon, and "faith-based" charity money all escaped your attention.
"The overt promotion of Creationist literature by the government at the Grand Canyon?"

This is your proof that the United States of America is soon going to be swapping its fifty stars for Christ's cross on Old Glory?
Bullshit, quite frankly. Among atheists, support for the "it's a baby from the moment of conception" viewpoint is almost insignificant. Atheists only differ on when it should be allowed through the term; very rarely will you find an atheist who thinks it should not be allowed at all.
It's not black and white, Wong. Not everybody who backs prohibitions on abortion carrys a Bible in the crook of their arm. If you're going to tell me that religion is the only possible motive to oppose what some people believe is the unjust taking of life, I point you to the fact that most non-practicing persons still believe murder is wrong, too. People can have moral values without the influence of religion.
Once again, you are full of shit as usual. So-called "faith-based charities" do not distinguish between "ministering" and helping people. They invariably try to do both at the same time, in varying proportions. So any government money sent to such an organization will be at least partly (if not mostly) used for proselytizing. Everyone knows this, and Bush knew it from day one, which is why he pushed for the initiative. Moreover, these organizations have been granted an exemption from the rule that federally funded organizations cannot practice religious discrimination in hiring. Of course they don't discriminate in service; they want to convert you, for fuck's sake.
If the faith-based charities feed more people, it's a victory. Not everyone who sits down for a meal or three in a Church basement is going to find God.
As usual, you mindlessly defend every goddamned thing the Bush Administration does.
No; I'm just tired of all the insistance that GWB is attempting to build a Christian Utopia.
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Post by Keevan_Colton »

Kast you really are a fucking moron.
You say he isnt and hasnt done anything to push the US towards being a christian nation, when the list of examples show he has in clear violation of the establishment clause.
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Post by Darth Raptor »

An ABC/Washington post poll released this week showed that 46 percent of Southerners are fucking retarded.
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Post by Lord Poe »

Lazy Raptor wrote:An ABC/Washington post poll released this week showed that 46 percent of Southerners are fucking retarded.
That's a stupid fucking retarded thing to say.
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Post by Darth Raptor »

Lord Poe wrote:That's a stupid fucking retarded thing to say.
And saying that people with executive, legislative and judicial powers should base their decisions off of their religious beliefs and not logic or morality isn't? :roll:
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Post by kojikun »

I hope that, if he does do this, it's just a ruse to garner support and that once he's in office he turns around and says, "Haha, stupid fundies, I just said that to get your votes. Tools. Bahahahaha!"
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Post by Alex Moon »

kojikun wrote:I hope that, if he does do this, it's just a ruse to garner support and that once he's in office he turns around and says, "Haha, stupid fundies, I just said that to get your votes. Tools. Bahahahaha!"
In other words, you want massive Republican victories in 2006 and 2008. :D
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Post by Andrew J. »

Lazy Raptor wrote:An ABC/Washington post poll released this week showed that 46 percent of Southerners are fucking retarded.
That low? :?
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Post by Axis Kast »

ast you really are a fucking moron.
It really makes you people feel like big boys when you say that, huh?
You say he isnt and hasnt done anything to push the US towards being a christian nation, when the list of examples show he has in clear violation of the establishment clause.
We're in no danger of becoming a Christian Theocracy that worships the Vicar of God on Earth, Archbishop George W. Bush II. The handful of efforts to encourage religious consideration and support for faith-based service organizations (which is a good idea once the conspiracy theorists out there stop shouting, "Church! Church! It's coming to kill us all!") is hardly anything to get worked up about. The United States isn't falling apart, much as you people insist George Bush is trying.
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Post by Darth Raptor »

Oh I see, so direct violations of the Constitution are acceptable, provided they are a good idea. Okay, let me take your guns away. Hey, it might just cut down on firearm injuries! Selective conservativism.
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Post by Andrew J. »

Axis Kast wrote: We're in no danger of becoming a Christian Theocracy that worships the Vicar of God on Earth, Archbishop George W. Bush II.
Strawman. Just because the country's not run by priests or has laws copied straight out of the Bible doesn't mean the government can't respect religious establishments, which would be a direct violation of the First Amendment.
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Post by Lord Poe »

Lazy Raptor wrote:And saying that people with executive, legislative and judicial powers should base their decisions off of their religious beliefs and not logic or morality isn't? :roll:
That's not the same thing, asshole. Did it occur to you that people on this board are from southern States, and/or have families living there?
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Post by Darth Wong »

Lord Poe wrote:
Lazy Raptor wrote:And saying that people with executive, legislative and judicial powers should base their decisions off of their religious beliefs and not logic or morality isn't? :roll:
That's not the same thing, asshole. Did it occur to you that people on this board are from southern States, and/or have families living there?
Hopefully, they would belong to the other >50%.

This is like saying that nearly half of Americans are fundie idiots, based on the Gallup and Time magazine polls indicating that nearly half of Americans think the Earth is less than 10,000 years old because the Bible says so. It sounds harsh, but it's not plucked out of thin air so it's not exactly unfair.
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Post by Mayabird »

Lord Poe wrote:
Lazy Raptor wrote:And saying that people with executive, legislative and judicial powers should base their decisions off of their religious beliefs and not logic or morality isn't? :roll:
That's not the same thing, asshole. Did it occur to you that people on this board are from southern States, and/or have families living there?
Beh. I'm from Georgia and it doesn't bother me. Rural Georgia in my view is the black hole of thinking. I hate my stupid hometown, as do my college friends who have also escaped that vast cesspit.

However, Lazy Raptor, FAR more than 46% of my fellow classmates in high school were fucking retarded. I have many stories of their stunning idiocy, most of which involved their fundie beliefs. There was the Baptist girl who had religious issues with the existance of protons and neutrons because the Bible didn't mention them, for instance.
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Post by Joe »

It's not black and white, Wong. Not everybody who backs prohibitions on abortion carrys a Bible in the crook of their arm. If you're going to tell me that religion is the only possible motive to oppose what some people believe is the unjust taking of life, I point you to the fact that most non-practicing persons still believe murder is wrong, too. People can have moral values without the influence of religion.
Can you give me a reason other than outdated religious dogma to oppose first-term abortion?
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Post by AdmiralKanos »

Joe wrote:
It's not black and white, Wong. Not everybody who backs prohibitions on abortion carrys a Bible in the crook of their arm. If you're going to tell me that religion is the only possible motive to oppose what some people believe is the unjust taking of life, I point you to the fact that most non-practicing persons still believe murder is wrong, too. People can have moral values without the influence of religion.
Can you give me a reason other than outdated religious dogma to oppose first-term abortion?
There's no point even asking the troll to explain himself. Notice how he equates anti-abortion extremism to "having moral values". His "rebuttal" completely avoided the point, and served no purpose other than to give him the pleasure of hearing his own lips flap about in the wind.
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Post by EmperorSolo51 »

I think that Dean is just doing this to try and get some southern votes in the primaries and the general vote. The south will see through this attempt and view Dean as a candidate that lacks any convictions whatsoever. Once the the mainstream south learns of the fact that Dean changed denominations over a stupid road path, this new convsersion by Dean to seam more Christian will fall on deaf ears.
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Post by Peregrin Toker »

Lord Poe wrote:
Simon H.Johansen wrote:What about the Libertarians and the Greens? I don't think they boast of their religious devotion in order to get votes from fundamentalists.
[KODOS]"Go ahead, THROW your vote away!"[/KODOS]
But if the third parties are really clever, they can at least use this as an opportunity to gain the support of more secularly-minded voters.
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Post by MKSheppard »

Lazy Raptor wrote:An ABC/Washington post poll released this week showed that 46 percent of Southerners are fucking retarded.
And in other news, 70% of new yorkers in the elite are fucking cockmonkey
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