LOTR question (books): why were the Elves such cowards?

FAN: Discuss various fictional worlds that don't qualify for SF.

Moderator: Steve

Post Reply
User avatar
Vympel
Spetsnaz
Spetsnaz
Posts: 29312
Joined: 2002-07-19 01:08am
Location: Sydney Australia

LOTR question (books): why were the Elves such cowards?

Post by Vympel »

What made the Elves leave Middle Earth? Why didn't they stay to help men? I don't remember if there was any acceptable explanation in the books, I clearly remember thinking to myself that they were just a pack of cowards who had lost their nerve, with the exception of a few (Legolas).
Like Legend of Galactic Heroes? Please contribute to http://gineipaedia.com/
User avatar
Keevan_Colton
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 10355
Joined: 2002-12-30 08:57pm
Location: In the Land of Logic and Reason, two doors down from Lilliput and across the road from Atlantis...
Contact:

Post by Keevan_Colton »

I'd say it's summed up well with Elrond.
They've reached apathy, to them, humans keep fucking and as a people they're sick of bailing them out.
"Prodesse Non Nocere."
"It's all about popularity really, if your invisible friend that tells you to invade places is called Napoleon, you're a loony, if he's called Jesus then you're the president."
"I'd drive more people insane, but I'd have to double back and pick them up first..."
"All it takes for bullshit to thrive is for rational men to do nothing." - Kevin Farrell, B.A. Journalism.
BOTM - EBC - Horseman - G&C - Vampire
User avatar
Darth Wong
Sith Lord
Sith Lord
Posts: 70028
Joined: 2002-07-03 12:25am
Location: Toronto, Canada
Contact:

Post by Darth Wong »

Good thing modern police officers don't have that attitude.
Image
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing

"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC

"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness

"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
User avatar
SyntaxVorlon
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 5954
Joined: 2002-12-18 08:45pm
Location: Places
Contact:

Post by SyntaxVorlon »

Modern police don't live forever in luxuriant cities and forest enclaves.
Image
WE, however, do meddle in the affairs of others.
What part of [ Image,Image, N(Image) ] don't you understand?
Skeptical Armada Cynic: ROU Aggressive Logic
SDN Ranger: Skeptical Ambassador
EOD
Mr Golgotha, Ms Scheck, we're running low on skin. I suggest you harvest another lesbian!
User avatar
Vympel
Spetsnaz
Spetsnaz
Posts: 29312
Joined: 2002-07-19 01:08am
Location: Sydney Australia

Post by Vympel »

Keevan_Colton wrote:I'd say it's summed up well with Elrond.
They've reached apathy, to them, humans keep fucking and as a people they're sick of bailing them out.
Did Elrond say that? Sauron and the Orcs certainly don't have anything to do with humans- yes Isildur failed several thousand years ago, what excuse is that to leave all of Middle Earth at the mercy of Mordor and Isengard in the Third Age? It just doesn't make sense. It seems to me they just wanted to run away from their problems and ponce off to greener pastures and pretend Sauron isn't there.
Like Legend of Galactic Heroes? Please contribute to http://gineipaedia.com/
septesix
Padawan Learner
Posts: 385
Joined: 2002-07-04 01:48am
Location: 2*** West 38th Vancouver
Contact:

Post by septesix »

Well, clearly you don't remember the books very well. Or at least, you didn't bother checking the appendies anyway.

Elrond didn't say anything about the elves leaving until the very end, after the war was over. Sure, we saw ONE instance of elves seemly leaving middle-earth at the very beginning, But we were also told that Lorien was fighting against the force in Dol Guldur(sp?), so that Theoden can safely ride to Gondor without coming back to a razed Rohan. The Elves of Mirkwood, where Legolas come from, was fighting with the Dwraves of the Lonely mountain and Men of the Dales against Easterlings. Rivendell itself was holding back the orcs of Moria. Cirdan at Grey Heaven is too far away from any of the actual fighting to do anyhting.

That is a quick breakdown of ALL the elves on Middle-earth at tthe time of the War and what they did. None of them run away, the main story just never went where their action took place.
User avatar
CJvR
Sith Devotee
Posts: 2926
Joined: 2002-07-11 06:36pm
Location: K.P.E.V. 1

Post by CJvR »

The main reason the elves vere leaving had nothing to do with Sauron or men but rather it was a result of the will of the Valar. During the entire second age there were powerful elven kingdoms in Middleearth. The great exodus didn't seem to start until the fall of Numenore, it was probably then that the Valar realized that it would never work having the immortal elves and mortal men coexisting after Melkor put fear of death into the hearts of men. IIRC Legolas himself remarks that once he heard the cries of seabirds he was gripped by the urge to go into the west - that has Valar manipulation written all over it. It was also nice to see that the last surviving of the Noldor rebel leaders was pardoned and allowed to go west, although she had to pass the test of the one ring first.
I thought Roman candles meant they were imported. - Kelly Bundy
12 yards long, two lanes wide it's 65 tons of American pride, Canyonero! - Simpsons
Support the KKK environmental program - keep the Arctic white!
septesix
Padawan Learner
Posts: 385
Joined: 2002-07-04 01:48am
Location: 2*** West 38th Vancouver
Contact:

Post by septesix »

CJvR wrote:The main reason the elves vere leaving had nothing to do with Sauron or men but rather it was a result of the will of the Valar. During the entire second age there were powerful elven kingdoms in Middleearth. The great exodus didn't seem to start until the fall of Numenore, it was probably then that the Valar realized that it would never work having the immortal elves and mortal men coexisting after Melkor put fear of death into the hearts of men. IIRC Legolas himself remarks that once he heard the cries of seabirds he was gripped by the urge to go into the west - that has Valar manipulation written all over it. It was also nice to see that the last surviving of the Noldor rebel leaders was pardoned and allowed to go west, although she had to pass the test of the one ring first.
Sorry , wrong again. The great Exodus started when the Valars first found the Elves to be awaken. They believe that it's better if they provide these beings who are stuck in Middle-Earth forever a nice place to live, and so they start leading them across the land and sea to Valinor.

Later rebel Noldor came back to Middle-Earth and lead the war against Morgoth, when Morgoth was finally defeated, the Valar lift the ban against those rebel and a great majority of them choose to go back then. This was at the beginning of the 2nd age, when Numenore was newly founded.

Still, even with the choice of going to "heaven", some elves decide to stay and help the men of Middle-Earth, or just Middle-Earth. They are elves like Elrond and Cirdan. It's less clear why Galadrial didn't went back at once. During the next 6 thousands years of 2nd and 3r4d age, some elves were still trikling back to Valinor , but not many.

Finally at the end of the 3rd age, after the war of the ring, the elves decided that the time of Men has come, and they have to yield the world to them, and decided to pack up and leave..
User avatar
CJvR
Sith Devotee
Posts: 2926
Joined: 2002-07-11 06:36pm
Location: K.P.E.V. 1

Post by CJvR »

septesix wrote: Sorry , wrong again. The great Exodus started when the Valars first found the Elves to be awaken. They believe that it's better if they provide these beings who are stuck in Middle-Earth forever a nice place to live, and so they start leading them across the land and sea to Valinor.
Yeah, but I never counted the original migration of the Elves, nor do I think it was originaly intended but rather a result of the Valar's desire to protect the elves from the dangers Melkor had unleached into the world. The Elves were never predestined to hang around in Valinor but it was the safest place for them.
septesix wrote: Still, even with the choice of going to "heaven", some elves decide to stay and help the men of Middle-Earth, or just Middle-Earth. They are elves like Elrond and Cirdan. It's less clear why Galadrial didn't went back at once. During the next 6 thousands years of 2nd and 3r4d age, some elves were still trikling back to Valinor , but not many.
The Elves decided to stay for their own reasons, all their human allies went into isolationist exile on Numenor and would remain there for a long time. Galadriel remained mostly because she still wanted to rule.
septesix wrote: Finally at the end of the 3rd age, after the war of the ring, the elves decided that the time of Men has come, and they have to yield the world to them, and decided to pack up and leave..
IIRC the elven kingdoms were emptied in less than a century after the fall of Barad Dur so most of the Elves remaining at the end of the third age probably did so out of a desire to go the distance with their ancient enemies.
I thought Roman candles meant they were imported. - Kelly Bundy
12 yards long, two lanes wide it's 65 tons of American pride, Canyonero! - Simpsons
Support the KKK environmental program - keep the Arctic white!
Johonebesus
Jedi Master
Posts: 1487
Joined: 2002-07-06 11:26pm

Post by Johonebesus »

The main reason they left was because the world was moving on. Elves didn't like change. Their whole motivation throughout the third age was to preserve the world from change. The fourth age was the age of man and of change, and the elves were simply left behind. Most left because they just didn't have a place in Middle Earth anymore. Not all left, and those that remained were diminished, though exactly how is unclear. Early on Tolkien seemed to have the idea that elves literally shrank over the millennia to become modern fairies, but more probable is that they just became less present in the real world. There is a nice scene where Frodo sees Gandalf, Galadriel, and Fanghorn "talking," and to him they appear to be motionless statues, or even natural rocks. This suggests that such may be how we see elves today.

Legolas' desire was a remnant of the initial invitation of the Valar. All elves hear the call of the sea, and always did right from the time Ulmo called them to the West. There is no indication that the Valar made any great decision that the elves must come West after the Third Age.

To the original poster, don't confuse Jackson's Elrond with the original. Elrond did not show such disgust towards humanity in the novel. He just saw that the elves' time was up, and he just ruled a tiny remnant of the Noldor anyway. He didn’t have the manpower to send a mighty army, and what forces he had would be needed if Sauron won. The elves would certainly flee as fast as they could if Galadriel and Elrond perceived that Sauron had recovered the ring, and someone would need to defend the last refugees.
"Can you eat quarks? Can you spread them on your bed when the cold weather comes?" -Bernard Levin

"Sir: Mr. Bernard Levin asks 'Can you eat quarks?' I estimate that he eats 500,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,001 quarks a day...Yours faithfully..." -Sir Alan Cottrell


Elohim's loving mercy: "Hey, you, don't turn around. WTF! I said DON'T tur- you know what, you're a pillar of salt now. Bitch." - an anonymous commenter
User avatar
Mayabird
Storytime!
Posts: 5970
Joined: 2003-11-26 04:31pm
Location: IA > GA

Post by Mayabird »

Johonebesus wrote:The main reason they left was because the world was moving on. Elves didn't like change. Their whole motivation throughout the third age was to preserve the world from change. The fourth age was the age of man and of change, and the elves were simply left behind.
Actually, it's more that elves CANNOT change. It's in The Silmarillion in the story "Of the Beginning of Days": "Therefore he willed that the hearts of Men should seek beyond the world and should find no rest therein; but they should have a virtue to shape their life, amid the powers and chances of the world, beyond the Music of Ainur, which is fate to all things else." (Boldface is my own addition).

The Music of Ainur was the creation of the world. Elves have a bound fate (though it is not yet known) that they cannot change, and they realize this. They can live forever, but will know that in the end there is only so much they can do, and they will be limited to that. Whereas, humans are unlimited in the things they can do; they indeed do leave elves behind as they change.

Elrond is actually half-elven. He had a brother Elros, and they were forced to decide whether they were elven or human. Elros (who is Aragorn's VERY distant ancestor) chose to be human. Why? Because then he would not be bound to the elven fate. He would die, true, but that's the price he would pay to be able to change.
DPDarkPrimus is my boyfriend!

SDNW4 Nation: The Refuge And, on Nova Terra, Al-Stan the Totally and Completely Honest and Legitimate Weapons Dealer and Used Starship Salesman slept on a bed made of money, with a blaster under his pillow and his sombrero pulled over his face. This is to say, he slept very well indeed.
User avatar
Mayabird
Storytime!
Posts: 5970
Joined: 2003-11-26 04:31pm
Location: IA > GA

Post by Mayabird »

Mayabird wrote:
Actually, it's more that elves CANNOT change. It's in The Silmarillion in the story "Of the Beginning of Days": "Therefore he willed that the hearts of Men should seek beyond the world and should find no rest therein; but they should have a virtue to shape their life, amid the powers and chances of the world, beyond the Music of Ainur, which is fate to all things else." (Boldface is my own addition).
D'oh, I meant my own emphasis. Could one of the moderators please fix that for me (and delete this post)?
DPDarkPrimus is my boyfriend!

SDNW4 Nation: The Refuge And, on Nova Terra, Al-Stan the Totally and Completely Honest and Legitimate Weapons Dealer and Used Starship Salesman slept on a bed made of money, with a blaster under his pillow and his sombrero pulled over his face. This is to say, he slept very well indeed.
User avatar
Drooling Iguana
Sith Marauder
Posts: 4975
Joined: 2003-05-13 01:07am
Location: Sector ZZ9 Plural Z Alpha

Re: LOTR question (books): why were the Elves such cowards?

Post by Drooling Iguana »

Vympel wrote:What made the Elves leave Middle Earth? Why didn't they stay to help men? I don't remember if there was any acceptable explanation in the books, I clearly remember thinking to myself that they were just a pack of cowards who had lost their nerve, with the exception of a few (Legolas).
It was the smell. They felt saturated by it...
Mayabird wrote:Elrond is actually half-elven. He had a brother Elros, and they were forced to decide whether they were elven or human. Elros (who is Aragorn's VERY distant ancestor) chose to be human.
Does that mean that Aragorn married his cousin?
Image
"Stop! No one can survive these deadly rays!"
"These deadly rays will be your death!"
- Thor and Akton, Starcrash

"Before man reaches the moon your mail will be delivered within hours from New York to California, to England, to India or to Australia by guided missiles.... We stand on the threshold of rocket mail."
- Arthur Summerfield, US Postmaster General 1953 - 1961
User avatar
Joe
Space Cowboy
Posts: 17314
Joined: 2002-08-22 09:58pm
Location: Wishing I was in Athens, GA

Re: LOTR question (books): why were the Elves such cowards?

Post by Joe »

Drooling Iguana wrote:
Vympel wrote:What made the Elves leave Middle Earth? Why didn't they stay to help men? I don't remember if there was any acceptable explanation in the books, I clearly remember thinking to myself that they were just a pack of cowards who had lost their nerve, with the exception of a few (Legolas).
It was the smell. They felt saturated by it...
Mayabird wrote:Elrond is actually half-elven. He had a brother Elros, and they were forced to decide whether they were elven or human. Elros (who is Aragorn's VERY distant ancestor) chose to be human.
Does that mean that Aragorn married his cousin?
Yep. But just about as distant a cousin as you can get.
Image

BoTM / JL / MM / HAB / VRWC / Horseman

I'm studying for the CPA exam. Have a nice summer, and if you're down just sit back and realize that Joe is off somewhere, doing much worse than you are.
User avatar
SirNitram
Rest in Peace, Black Mage
Posts: 28367
Joined: 2002-07-03 04:48pm
Location: Somewhere between nowhere and everywhere

Post by SirNitram »

Well, the elves were pretty much facing extinction. That's a good motivator to find a place where you won't simply cease to be.
Manic Progressive: A liberal who violently swings from anger at politicos to despondency over them.

Out Of Context theatre: Ron Paul has repeatedly said he's not a racist. - Destructinator XIII on why Ron Paul isn't racist.

Shadowy Overlord - BMs/Black Mage Monkey - BOTM/Jetfire - Cybertron's Finest/General Miscreant/ASVS/Supermoderator Emeritus

Debator Classification: Trollhunter
User avatar
CJvR
Sith Devotee
Posts: 2926
Joined: 2002-07-11 06:36pm
Location: K.P.E.V. 1

Re: LOTR question (books): why were the Elves such cowards?

Post by CJvR »

Drooling Iguana wrote:Does that mean that Aragorn married his cousin?
Yes, although separated by about 6000 years.
I thought Roman candles meant they were imported. - Kelly Bundy
12 yards long, two lanes wide it's 65 tons of American pride, Canyonero! - Simpsons
Support the KKK environmental program - keep the Arctic white!
User avatar
Darth Gojira
Jedi Master
Posts: 1378
Joined: 2002-07-14 08:20am
Location: Rampaging around Cook County

Post by Darth Gojira »

"What, US go into battle? And get our hair all messy?!!" :wink:
Hokey masers and giant robots are no match for a good kaiju at your side, kid
Post #666: 5-24-03, 8:26 am (Hey, why not?)
Do you not believe in Thor, the Viking Thunder God? If not, then do you consider your state of disbelief in Thor to be a religion? Are you an AThorist?-Darth Wong on Atheism as a religion
User avatar
Stormbringer
King of Democracy
Posts: 22678
Joined: 2002-07-15 11:22pm

Re: LOTR question (books): why were the Elves such cowards?

Post by Stormbringer »

Vympel wrote:What made the Elves leave Middle Earth? Why didn't they stay to help men?
When an Elf got called back they didn't really have much choice about whether they wanted to go. As even Legolas said something to the effect of "Once the sea gets in your heart one can find no peace in Middle Earth."
With them it wasn't really a choice of leave or not, once they were called they had to.

As for why they didn't help men in the books, they were facing attacks too. Unlike in the movies, Sauron moved against Lothlorien from Dol Goldur and so that ended up tying up the Lorien Elves and the Woodland Elves protecting that front. They ended up fighting a fairly serious battle there as well as relieving the siege of Erebor by laying seige to the Mini-Tower. And Rivendell or the Grey Havens never had that many warriors so they were essentially a non-factor.
Vympel wrote:I don't remember if there was any acceptable explanation in the books, I clearly remember thinking to myself that they were just a pack of cowards who had lost their nerve, with the exception of a few (Legolas).
A few were a bit bitter but as it shows in the books, they had a fight on their hands and could spare the troops being away at the time. Not to mention they were far shorter handed when it came to soldier than ever Gondor was any way. The Last Alliance had bleed off the vast majority of their fighting troops.
Image
Post Reply