New "old" Starfleet Phase Pistols: Love 'em or hat

[Knife]

Thanks, I'll have a look.

Or you could use The Essential Guide to Chronology. Incidentally, cloaking devices are also new technology.

Incidentally, I've read about the Imperial Cloading Device in the SWEGWT, and I get the impression that the Crystal Gravity Trap (CGT) wouldn't be all that effective against small cloaked ships, since it relies on gravity detection to pick up cloaked vessels. Would something the size of a SF scoutship trip it?

wouldn't the CGT pick up on the gravity that the cloaking device was using to bend the light around the vessel or do SW cloaks work on a different principle than the ST ones?

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

Or you could use The Essential Guide to Chronology. Incidentally, cloaking devices are also new technology.

Incidentally, I've read about the Imperial Cloading Device in the SWEGWT, and I get the impression that the Crystal Gravity Trap (CGT) wouldn't be all that effective against small cloaked ships, since it relies on gravity detection to pick up cloaked vessels. Would something the size of a SF scoutship trip it?

wouldn't the CGT pick up on the gravity that the cloaking device was using to bend the light around the vessel or do SW cloaks work on a different principle than the ST ones?

Actually, I believe it's the SW variety only that uses gravity to achieve the cloaking effect. The ST ones, if I recall, don't have this feature -- witness the destruction of the BOP for ST:VI, which wouldn't have been possible if gravitational forces were being used to bend light and sensor readings -- those same forces should (might?) have deflected the Enterprise's and Excelsior's weapons as well.

[Master of Ossus]

I don't think SW ships use gravity with their cloaking devices. Note that the CGT is effective against the cloaking device because the device does not alter the gravity of the cloaked ship. If the cloaking device used gravity to cause its effect, we would expect that its mass would be vastly more significant than the mass of the ship it concealed. In addition, the SW cloaking device appears to operate by separating a ship from the space around it. Note that in VotF, the Falcon flies through a cloaking shield, and Lando describes it as having simply disappeared, visually.

The final piece of the puzzle is that cloaking devices do not work with hyperdrives only because of the energy requirements for both devices (stated in TIE Fighter, Collector's CD ROM), instead of not operating due to gravitic concerns. This further indicates to me that the effect is caused by some other exotic reaction.

[Mr Bean]

I get the impression that the Crystal Gravity Trap (CGT) wouldn't be all that effective against small cloaked ships, since it relies on gravity detection to pick up cloaked vessels. Would something the size of a SF scoutship trip it?

A Crystal Gravity Trap uses Gravity Dectection yes but what your not getting is HOW it goes about doing this

Anything in our Solar system exerts some pressure on each other

Its possible with sufficently sophesticated sensors to dectect all these infulances on each other


The Trap measures it on a System Wide Bases, IE it looks at everything within a few Lightmintes, checks to see whats pulling and pusing on what then starts scanning going down the List in sizes of anything thats affecting anything

If somonething does not match the sensors where the Gravity Trap says it should be it has found a cloacked ship

Very Exotic, Very powerful computing behind it, very rare(There are around ten or so floating around NR, Imperal Space as none are ever mentioned as being destroyed)

Anyway if SW sensors can in under a mintue on a Civilian Ship(Slave II) find a 3 Meter Hunk of Metal at Light mintue ranges in under a minute, one could safly say that anything above 3 Meters has to be easier and we are talking about 100 Meter+ sized Craft

Gravity Traps are VERY Powerful, VERY Useful and VERY Rare

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

I don't think SW ships use gravity with their cloaking devices. Note that the CGT is effective against the cloaking device because the device does not alter the gravity of the cloaked ship. If the cloaking device used gravity to cause its effect, we would expect that its mass would be vastly more significant than the mass of the ship it concealed. In addition, the SW cloaking device appears to operate by separating a ship from the space around it. Note that in VotF, the Falcon flies through a cloaking shield, and Lando describes it as having simply disappeared, visually.

The final piece of the puzzle is that cloaking devices do not work with hyperdrives only because of the energy requirements for both devices (stated in TIE Fighter, Collector's CD ROM), instead of not operating due to gravitic concerns. This further indicates to me that the effect is caused by some other exotic reaction.

Actually, according to Darth Wong's analysis on this site, it does. I realize that's an "appeal to authority" but I will have to assume that his source materials bear out his analysis. According to said analysis, the Imperial Cloaking Device achieves cloaking through an effect similar to a warp field (Philadelphia Experiment, anyone?)

However, he points out an interesting deficiency -- Imperial cloaks work both ways! Whereas the ship operating the device is invisible to the space outside it visually and by sensors (except for CGT) the ship is conversely rendered blind! With CGT nullifying the advantage of cloaks, it's no wonder they're seldom used -- they're actually more a hindrance than an advantage!

[Master of Ossus]

1. Cloaking devices are NOT more of a hindrance than an advantage. Do you know how rare CGT sensors are in SW?

2. The Philadelphia Experiment never took place, and even if it DID the way all the people on History's Mysteries say it did, then it had NOTHING to do with gravity.

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

1. Cloaking devices are NOT more of a hindrance than an advantage. Do you know how rare CGT sensors are in SW?

2. The Philadelphia Experiment never took place, and even if it DID the way all the people on History's Mysteries say it did, then it had NOTHING to do with gravity.

1. If you can't fire until someone can see you, there's no point to a cloaking device. It's a hindrance.

2. It had plenty to do with gravity (and electricity/other exotic technobabble bullshit) Depending on who's telling the story, the U.S. Navy was either trying to create a cloaking device (thus the relevance) or an interdimensional engine for their battleships.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

Raoul Duke, Jr., never, EVER mention the "Philidelphia Experiment" again. Nothing "strange" happened to that ship: it was just able to go through a passage in a mine field that was off limits (and not known about) to civilians. What they were doing to the ship was de-gausing it.

[Master of Ossus]

1. If you can't fire until someone can see you, there's no point to a cloaking device. It's a hindrance.

No, you're not thinking about this logically. A cloaked ship cannot accurately target another SHIP, but it can hit a planet. Further, since planets are not likely to engage in evasive maneuvers, it can even hit a particular part of a planet, including a shield generator or a group of defensive installations. Also, such a ship can launch and recover starfighters, although those would be visible as soon as they left the shield.

2. It had plenty to do with gravity (and electricity/other exotic technobabble bullshit) Depending on who's telling the story, the U.S. Navy was either trying to create a cloaking device (thus the relevance) or an interdimensional engine for their battleships.

WAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! An "interdimensional engine for their battleships?" WTF? What does this experiment involve? If Raoul is to be believed, it involves the following:

1. Electricity.
2. Exotic technobabble.
3. Electricity.
4. Extra-dimensional engines.

Anything else this things has? I would be very interested to hear if it involved leprechauns or other such creatures. I've heard the US Navy makes a mean banshee. In any case, as I understand it the entire "experiment" was a fraudulent story, and that the ship was merely being treated to protect it from magnetic mines and torpedoes.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

That's right, Ossus. Particularly from magnetic mines. Degausing the ships helped reduce the effective range of the mines.

People think the ship "teleported" because it was able to go from one port to another overnight through the military-only passage of a US minefield on the East Coast, which took civilians at least a day to go around.

Add some drunken sailor stories, and the fact that the degausing equipment was notorrious for causing massive headaches and nausea, and you have the ingreadiants for a "conspiracy".

AND THAT'S ALL THEY FUCKING DID!!

[Knife]

Actually, I believe it's the SW variety only that uses gravity to achieve the cloaking effect. The ST ones, if I recall, don't have this feature -- witness the destruction of the BOP for ST:VI, which wouldn't have been possible if gravitational forces were being used to bend light and sensor readings -- those same forces should (might?) have deflected the Enterprise's and Excelsior's weapons as well.

IIRC didn't Spock go into some long rant about blaah blaah blahh bending light blaah blaah power requirements blaah blaah in the Balance of Terror. I all ways thought this to be interperted as gravity bending the light. If not what else would do it?

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

1. If you can't fire until someone can see you, there's no point to a cloaking device. It's a hindrance.

No, you're not thinking about this logically. A cloaked ship cannot accurately target another SHIP, but it can hit a planet. Further, since planets are not likely to engage in evasive maneuvers, it can even hit a particular part of a planet, including a shield generator or a group of defensive installations. Also, such a ship can launch and recover starfighters, although those would be visible as soon as they left the shield.

2. It had plenty to do with gravity (and electricity/other exotic technobabble bullshit) Depending on who's telling the story, the U.S. Navy was either trying to create a cloaking device (thus the relevance) or an interdimensional engine for their battleships.

WAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! An "interdimensional engine for their battleships?" WTF? What does this experiment involve? If Raoul is to be believed, it involves the following:

1. Electricity.
2. Exotic technobabble.
3. Electricity.
4. Extra-dimensional engines.

Anything else this things has? I would be very interested to hear if it involved leprechauns or other such creatures. I've heard the US Navy makes a mean banshee. In any case, as I understand it the entire "experiment" was a fraudulent story, and that the ship was merely being treated to protect it from magnetic mines and torpedoes.

1. According to Mike's analysis (which is the only source material I have access to right now) Imperial ships using the cloaking device are blind. Utterly and completely blind. Sure, they could launch starfighters -- but it's apparently common knowledge that starfighters need a capship or base, so deductive reasoning would tell anyone encountering starfighters that there's a ship nearby, even if they can't see it.

2. I never said I believe any of the crap I've read about TPE, just that I've read some crap about it. And yes, the most prevalent story is that they were trying to create a cloaking device for naval vessels using some kind of Tesla-inspired gravitational effect.

[Knife]

Raoul, the cloaking device in any form would be more of a tatical device than a stategic one in any rate. Much like a interdictor, it would gain a advantage in a battle by suprise either going into a fight or leaving one.

[Patrick Degan]

Actually, I believe it's the SW variety only that uses gravity to achieve the cloaking effect. The ST ones, if I recall, don't have this feature -- witness the destruction of the BOP for ST:VI, which wouldn't have been possible if gravitational forces were being used to bend light and sensor readings -- those same forces should (might?) have deflected the Enterprise's and Excelsior's weapons as well.

IIRC didn't Spock go into some long rant about blaah blaah blahh bending light blaah blaah power requirements blaah blaah in the Balance of Terror. I all ways thought this to be interperted as gravity bending the light. If not what else would do it?

The total amount of technobabble Spock devoted to the subject was:

"Invisibility is theoretically possible, through the selective bending of light rays. But the power-cost is enormous. They may have solved that problem."

All delivered in less than ten seconds of dialogue time. Amazing, isn't it?

Light can also be bent or scattered through refraction. Prisms do it. Personally, I tend toward the idea that a Trek cloak is based upon some sort of wave-cancellation principle, but I'm not quite certain how it woule work.

The Romulan cloak also rendered them at least partially blind. In "Balance Of Terror", if you recall, the Romulans were unable to determine whether the sensor reading of the Enterprise was genuine or merely a reflection off the cloaking field. Kirk later reasons that "their invisibility screen may work both ways", and is his basis for his pursuit strategy of matching the Romulan ship move for move to keep them in the dark. Eminently logical.

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

At the very least, this bears out the conclusion I had already reached; Trek cloaks and Wars cloaks are equally effective and equally dangerous to their respective users.

[Knife]

Actually, I believe it's the SW variety only that uses gravity to achieve the cloaking effect. The ST ones, if I recall, don't have this feature -- witness the destruction of the BOP for ST:VI, which wouldn't have been possible if gravitational forces were being used to bend light and sensor readings -- those same forces should (might?) have deflected the Enterprise's and Excelsior's weapons as well.

IIRC didn't Spock go into some long rant about blaah blaah blahh bending light blaah blaah power requirements blaah blaah in the Balance of Terror. I all ways thought this to be interperted as gravity bending the light. If not what else would do it?

The total amount of technobabble Spock devoted to the subject was:

"Invisibility is theoretically possible, through the selective bending of light rays. But the power-cost is enormous. They may have solved that problem."

All delivered in less than ten seconds of dialogue time. Amazing, isn't it?

Light can also be bent or scattered through refraction. Prisms do it. Personally, I tend toward the idea that a Trek cloak is based upon some sort of wave-cancellation principle, but I'm not quite certain how it woule work.

The Romulan cloak also rendered them at least partially blind. In "Balance Of Terror", if you recall, the Romulans were unable to determine whether the sensor reading of the Enterprise was genuine or merely a reflection off the cloaking field. Kirk later reasons that "their invisibility screen may work both ways", and is his basis for his pursuit strategy of matching the Romulan ship move for move to keep them in the dark. Eminently logical.

Thanks for the info Patrick, and stupid me for not thinking of prisms. (bow head is shame) The wave cancellation is a good idea, but the power out put to cancel light in a light intensive area would be huge, but I guess they solved that problem.

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

Getting back to TOS technology (now that we've ridden that Off topic full-circle) how would you resolve Starfleet going from "phase pistols" back to the laser pistols seen in "The Cage"?

[Knife]

Simple, they did not work well in the enviroments that they needed to or were not multiuse tools they had hoped for. My god, it only has two settings we need something with atleast ten.

Problems with reliability
Problems with power storage
Problems with malfunctions
Problems with power output
Problems with overloading
Or looks too much like a gun for a pacifist society.

[Slartibartfast]

Simple, they did not work well in the enviroments that they needed to or were not multiuse tools they had hoped for. My god, it only has two settings we need something with atleast ten.

Problems with reliability
Problems with power storage
Problems with malfunctions
Problems with power output
Problems with overloading
Or looks too much like a gun for a pacifist society.

But didn't they also have only two settings in TOS?

[Knife]

I can't remember correctly but I think they had three or four or so. Like stun, kill, high, shit like that. It's been awhile since I watched a TOS episode. But come a few years later in TMP era and they have more settings, let alone 80 years later when they are the swiss army knife of SF.

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

Simple, they did not work well in the enviroments that they needed to or were not multiuse tools they had hoped for. My god, it only has two settings we need something with atleast ten.

Problems with reliability

They haven't displayed any yet.

Problems with power storage

Possibly -- but again, they've yet to display any and phasers use the same type of "battery" for power

Problems with malfunctions

Interesting possibility, and it would be a good way to reintroduce the "Sudden Redshirt Death Syndrome" lol

Problems with power output

Better yet -- they're too weak for most jobs, batteries have pitifully short lifespans and up-times...

Problems with overloading

More SRDS possibilities.

Or looks too much like a gun for a pacifist society.

That one's just not going to work for the Enterprise era... they're still too much like us, although they're already heading in the TNG direction (which they shouldn't be considering they were still giving all indications of being a fully capitalist society as far as ST:VI...)