Anti-Semitism & Islamic Expansion

The Cleric · Post by **The Cleric** » 2004-01-01 04:42am

Sorry, I didn't know the specifics. But since it's been done, do we kick the Jews off?

Peregrin Toker · Post by **Peregrin Toker** » 2004-01-01 07:27am

Darth Wong wrote:
Peregrin Toker wrote:Now for my serious reply to the thread:
Darth Wong wrote:Which is clearly bullshit. If we use that logic, a world free of an Aryan Reich would be anti-white.
Well, thing is that it appears that many Palestininans don't believe that Jews have a right to live in Israel.
If the UN declared that Montana was now a black homeland and kicked all the whites out, do you think the whites would be happy about this? Would they recognize Blacktana's "right to exist?"

Wrong analogy - a better situation was if the Native American tribes living in Montana conquered Montana, expelled many of the whites and replaced the federal government with a religious quasi-theocracy. This wouldn't be acceptable either, but this would not justify the leaders of the White Montanans declaring that:

1. All the Montanan Native Americans should be exterminated completely rather than just replace their religious regime with a secular, egalitarian state.
2. Manifest Destiny never happened.
3. That it would be okay to commit ethnic cleansing towards Native Americans because they committed ethnic cleansing towards the Whites.
4. That everyone sympathizing with Native Americans should be killed too.
5. It would be acceptable to broadcast on White Montanan television sermons encouraging White people to aim all weapons against Native Americans and claiming that the Native Americans were in league with Satan.

If you consider this analogy a strawman, I would like to point out following quotes said by Palestinian leaders:

Sermon broadcast on Palestinian Authority television, August 3, 2001 wrote:All weapons must be aimed at the Jews, at the enemies of Allah...whom the Koran describes as monkeys and pigs, worshippers of the calf and idol worshippers. Allah shall make the Moslem rule over the Jew, we will blow them up in Hadera, we will blow them up in Tel Aviv and in Netanya in the righteousness of Allah against this rif-raff.....We will enter Jerusalem as conquerors, and Jaffa as conquerors, and Haifa as conquerors and Ashkelon as conquerors...we bless all those who educate their children to jihad and to Martyrdom, blessing be he who shot a bullet into the head of a Jew.

[quote="Dr Ahmad Abu-Halabia, a member of the "Fatwa Council"
appointed by the Palestinian Authority and the
former acting Rector of the Islamic University in Gaza,
delivered in the Zayd bin Sultan Nahyan mosque in Gaza
on October 13, 2000, the day after the lynching of the Israeli
reservists in Ramallah, and carried live on Palestinian television"]The Jews are Jews, whether Labour or Likud, the Jews are Jews. They do not have any moderates or any advocates of peace. They are all liars. They are the ones who must be butchered and killed. As Allah the Almighty said: 'Fight them.' Allah will torture them by your hands and will humiliate them and will help you to overcome them, and will relieve the minds of the believers. ... Our people must unite in one trench, and receive armaments from the Palestinian leadership to confront the Jews. ... Have no mercy on the Jews, no matter where they are, in any country. Fight them, wherever you are. Whenever you meet them, kill them. Wherever you are, kill those Jews and those Americans who are like them ? and those who stand with them ? they are all in one trench, against the Arabs and the Muslims ? because they established Israel here, in the beating heart of the Arab world, in Palestine. They created it in order that it be the outpost of their civilization ? and the vanguard of their army, and to be the sword of the West and the Crusaders, hanging over the necks of the Muslim monotheists, the Muslims in this land. They wanted the Jews to be the spearhead for them...[/quote]

[quote="Suha Arafat, wife of Yassir Arafat]I have always rejected normalizing relations with (Israeli) women....They always invite me to their functions and I categorically refuse because I hate Israel[/quote]

Palestinian Christian cleric Father 'Atallah Hanna, sermon in the Greek Orthodox Cathedral in Jerusalem, January 19, 2003 wrote:The Zionist Jews are foreigners in this land. They have no right to live or settle in it. They should go somewhere else in the world to establish their state and their false entity...They must leave their homes...We do not believe in so-called 'peace with Israel' because peace cannot be made with Satan. Israel is the greatest Satan

I do not believe that all Palestinians hate the Israeli. But I am certain that a majority of their leaders do.

As for the rest of your counterarguments, I do not reply to those as I've found out that I can't argue against those without resorting to logical fallacies. (particularly ) Guess I'm a bit of a hothead?

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-01-01 11:36am

Thank you for COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT rebuttals, jack-ass. Proving that some major Palestinian leaders' rhetoric is bullshit does not in any way even remotely address the issue of whether Israel has a "right to exist" as a race-state. It's like refuting a criticism of white supremacism by attacking Malcolm-X. One giant logical fallacy.

Peregrin Toker · Post by **Peregrin Toker** » 2004-01-02 05:24am

Heh, last night I thought: "Crap! I just committed a huge fallacy!" when thinking about this - but was way too tired to start up my computer, get here and admit it.

Well, as you can see I've got your point.

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2004-01-02 05:38am

I guess one could tie in Israel's right to exist as the right to self-determination of a large population. However, this would only address the right of the Israelis to a state somewhere. It would not excuse their taking over of the Palestine.

Rye · Post by **Rye** » 2004-01-02 10:57am

Is it a racist state, though, really? Last time i checked, i couldn't convert to black or aryan.

I would've thought it'd be more an ethnic(culture) or religious discriminatory state, rather than racist.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-01-02 11:48am

Rye wrote:Is it a racist state, though, really? Last time i checked, i couldn't convert to black or aryan.

If America gave people special rights for being either white or Christian, would you say it's not a racist state?

I would've thought it'd be more an ethnic(culture) or religious discriminatory state, rather than racist.

What the fuck kind of definition of racism are you using?

HemlockGrey · Post by **HemlockGrey** » 2004-01-02 12:00pm

I think Rye is just pointing out that Judaism isn't really a race, per se, so, while its still a discriminatory state, it can't technically be 'racist'.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-01-02 12:11pm

HemlockGrey wrote:I think Rye is just pointing out that Judaism isn't really a race, per se, so, while its still a discriminatory state, it can't technically be 'racist'.

Bullshit. If you perform discrimination on the basis of either race or religion, then you are both racist and religionist.

HemlockGrey · Post by **HemlockGrey** » 2004-01-02 12:50pm

But I thought Israel only discriminated on the basis of religion. That's bad enough, but I don't see how you could, technically and semantically, call it 'racism'.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-01-02 12:55pm

HemlockGrey wrote:But I thought Israel only discriminated on the basis of religion. That's bad enough, but I don't see how you could, technically and semantically, call it 'racism'.

Are you dense? If you are descended from Jewish people, you get instant right of return and citizenship. Explain to me how that is not ethnic discrimination.

HemlockGrey · Post by **HemlockGrey** » 2004-01-02 01:46pm

Are you dense? If you are descended from Jewish people, you get instant right of return and citizenship. Explain to me how that is not ethnic discrimination.

Really? I didn't know that. I thought they just gave special treatment to people who converted to Judaism.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-01-02 01:57pm

Ah, you must be suffering from a misconception propagated by Israel's "amen chorus" in the US, then.

From the full text of Israel's LAW OF RETURN 5710-1950:

"Every Jew has the right to come to this country as an oleh".

...

"For the purposes of this Law, "Jew" means a person who was born of a Jewish mother or has become converted to Judaism and who is not a member of another religion."

...

"A person shall not be registered as a Jew by ethnic affiliation or religion if a notification under this Law or another entry in the Registry or a public document indicates that he is not a Jew, so long as the said notification, entry or document has not been controverted to the satisfaction of the Chief Registration Officer or so long as declaratory judgment of a competent court or tribunal has not otherwise determined."

We are talking about a country in which you are registered by your ethnic affiliation or religion.

People have asked what the solution is, and they act as though the only alternative to Israel is to permit the Arabs to move in and kill everybody. This is simply absurd, not to mention a blatant false dilemma fallacy; what about the third option of demanding that Israel adopt a Constitution which respects the UN Declaration of Human Rights?

Rye · Post by **Rye** » 2004-01-02 10:05pm

Darth Wong wrote:
Rye wrote:Is it a racist state, though, really? Last time i checked, i couldn't convert to black or aryan.
If America gave people special rights for being either white or Christian, would you say it's not a racist state?

For being white, yes, for being christian, no. Even if there was a pseudorace element with heredity and christianity. You can't convert to a new race, not even Michael Jackson can do that. You can to new religions.

What the fuck kind of definition of racism are you using?

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=racism

1. The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.
2. Discrimination or prejudice based on race.

Ethnicity does not equal race.

Of or relating to a sizable group of people sharing a common and distinctive racial, national, religious, linguistic, or cultural heritage.

Israel discriminates based on ethnicity,national,religious, and cultural heritage, not race, as any person of any race can be jewish by conversion.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-01-02 10:20pm

Rye wrote:Israel discriminates based on ethnicity,national,religious, and cultural heritage, not race, as any person of any race can be jewish by conversion.

You're a fucking moron. If you need to convert to the Jewish religion in order to get privileges which are accorded to ethnic Jews automatically, then you're living in a racist state.

Let's suppose America had different privileges for blacks and whites, but blacks were told that they could gain "equivalent to white" status by converting. You would not consider this racist?

Rye · Post by **Rye** » 2004-01-02 10:37pm

Darth Wong wrote: You're a fucking moron. If you need to convert to the Jewish religion in order to get privileges which are accorded to ethnic Jews automatically, then you're living in a racist state.

It's given to them automatically because of their ethnicity, not their race.

Let's suppose America had different privileges for blacks and whites, but blacks were told that they could gain "equivalent to white" status by converting. You would not consider this racist?

Asking for conversion due to their culture is not racist, no. It's prejudice against the culture, NOT the race. Race is merely incidental. Again, because of their culture's heredarily determined ethnicity as well as conversion, it gets complicated, but the prejudice is still because of the culture, not the race.

It's fucking stupid to call someone racist if they accept people of every race, as long as they conform to their culture.

Like if the national front party in the UK rejects all nonwhites, irrespective if they're extremely anglicised in their culture/converted to christianity/born here or not. That's a racist system.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-01-02 10:44pm

Rye wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:You're a fucking moron. If you need to convert to the Jewish religion in order to get privileges which are accorded to ethnic Jews automatically, then you're living in a racist state.
It's given to them automatically because of their ethnicity, not their race.

What's the difference?

Let's suppose America had different privileges for blacks and whites, but blacks were told that they could gain "equivalent to white" status by converting. You would not consider this racist?
Asking for conversion due to their culture is not racist, no. It's prejudice against the culture, NOT the race. Race is merely incidental. Again, because of their culture's heredarily determined ethnicity as well as conversion, it gets complicated, but the prejudice is still because of the culture, not the race.

You don't fucking get it, do you? Under this scenario, the rules would be different for blacks and whites. Blacks have to meet an extra criterion in order to get the privileges which are accorded to whites automatically. What part of this don't you get?

It's fucking stupid to call someone racist if they accept people of every race, as long as they conform to their culture.

It's fucking stupid to deny that it's racist to grant special privileges to one ethnicity from birth while denying them to another unless they meet extra conditions.

Like if the national front party in the UK rejects all nonwhites, irrespective if they're extremely anglicised in their culture/converted to christianity/born here or not. That's a racist system.

That's an even more racist system. So what? Resorting to the "A is not bad because B is even worse" fallacy now?

Rye · Post by **Rye** » 2004-01-02 10:59pm

Darth Wong wrote: What's the difference?

Ethnicity doesn't hinge in race, they're often connected, but it's not contingent on it, while race is.

You don't fucking get it, do you? Under this scenario, the rules would be different for blacks and whites. Blacks have to meet an extra criterion in order to get the privileges which are accorded to whites automatically. What part of this don't you get?

Why, in your analogy, you make the distinction at race, not religion or culture.

It's fucking stupid to deny that it's racist to grant special privileges to one ethnicity from birth while denying them to another unless they meet extra conditions.

Hm, i think i just got it. The jewish culture is intrinsically racist, although not overbearingly so, as they accept people from any race but make a distinction for their own offspring automatically.

That's an even more racist system. So what? Resorting to the "A is not bad because B is even worse" fallacy now?

I concede that i was thinking larger scale racism automatically rather than seeing your actual point. The fallacy was unintentional, my definitions were incorrect.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2004-01-03 04:19pm

Darth Wong wrote:Of course fundamentalist Islam is evil. But the linked presentation said:
The New Anti-Semitism: A World Free of a Jewish State
Which is clearly bullshit. If we use that logic, a world free of an Aryan Reich would be anti-white.

Precisely. The make the presumption that the Jews are somehow entitled to a religious-ethnic home-state, which they never justify.