What is the Miranda-class designation and role?

[Stravo]

Actually, the Vor'Cha is canonically referred to as a "battlecruiser" by Klingon command staff during the Dominion War Arc of DS9. I can't remember the episode offhand, but I did do a PDD of it on ASVS.

I believe that would be the episode in which Chancellor Marty Feldman, AKA Chancellor Gowron, decides to expend something like 17 of those ships in softening up a heavily defended planet during the Dominion War before the main fleet element hits. Martok starts to have misgivings about the self-aggrandizing weasel in charge of the Klingon war effort.

I thought he was going to send "fifteen Vor'Cha class battle cruisers" to try and CONQUER a Dominion world. Martok and Worf kind of laughed at him, knowing that the attack would fail, and then Worf challenged him for Emperor.

Actually MoO I believe that one of the examples Martok gave of Gowron's idiocy was sending seventeen VorChas against the second heaviest defended worlds in Cardasian space. Gowron had a whole new list of stupid things to do and he questioned Martok's loyalty and courage. Thats when Worf opened up the can of whoop ass on the bug eyed Klingon.

[Master of Ossus]

I believe that would be the episode in which Chancellor Marty Feldman, AKA Chancellor Gowron, decides to expend something like 17 of those ships in softening up a heavily defended planet during the Dominion War before the main fleet element hits. Martok starts to have misgivings about the self-aggrandizing weasel in charge of the Klingon war effort.

I thought he was going to send "fifteen Vor'Cha class battle cruisers" to try and CONQUER a Dominion world. Martok and Worf kind of laughed at him, knowing that the attack would fail, and then Worf challenged him for Emperor.

Actually MoO I believe that one of the examples Martok gave of Gowron's idiocy was sending seventeen VorChas against the second heaviest defended worlds in Cardasian space. Gowron had a whole new list of stupid things to do and he questioned Martok's loyalty and courage. Thats when Worf opened up the can of whoop ass on the bug eyed Klingon.

Hmmm... I haven't seen that episode in ages. To be honest, I thought it was sort of contrived how Gowron went from being a pretty good, if battle-hungry Emperor who was willing to accept criticism and advice from EVERYONE (including Worf, while he was attacking a station Worf was on), to being a psycho who was sacrificing Klingon warriors for no reason. Oh well....

[Uraniun235]

K'vorts were also referred to as Battlecruisers by Wesley in "Yesterday's Enterprise".

Alyeska:

With regard to the "more powerful" rollbar phasers:

The Reliant never suffered engine damage to the extent that the Enterprise did. From the very first, the Enterprise was at a severe disadvantage; crippled, and crewed mainly by cadets.

Scotty says he can only give Kirk "a few shots" with the phasers... given the level of damage the Enterprise has sustained, it is not unreasonable to consider that the shots Enterprise fired may have been less than full power. Sulu wouldn't want to gamble all his phaser power on one or two shots; he'd want some in reserve in case they needed to hit them again.

With regard to "sacrificed science capabilities":

This would have made the Reliant a less suitable candidate for the Genesis Project, and in fact it would have been much more sound to use an older and apparently mostly-unused starship, fully equipped with scientific equipment and designed for long-term missions (i.e. the Enterprise) if the Reliant was truly lacking in science capabilities.

I also don't think that the Miranda class has the same power plant... I seriously doubt that there is enough height on the hull to accomodate the full height of a Constitution-class reactor. Even if there was, there would be less space for fuel, indicating that the Miranda-class has a shorter refueling interval.

With regard to bridge armor vs torpedo room armor, again the Reliant simply had more power for phasers and was in a superior condition. Plus, the bridge shots seemed almost glancing... the torpedo room shots were dead-on.[/i]

[Isolder74]

in regards to his actions regarding the Reliant.

1> Kirk knew his friend Checkov was the XO of the ship.

2> Even Kirk seemed reluctant to raise shields against another Federation vessel and bought the radio bad thing until Spock informed him of the lie.

3> After the ship got away it seems that the Reliant was not able to completely unlock its computers after Kirk's little trick he pulled.

4> Except for the warp drive and the shields Scotty seemed to have gotten the Enterprise pretty much back to full combat capability.

[Alyeska]

in regards to his actions regarding the Reliant.

4> Except for the warp drive and the shields Scotty seemed to have gotten the Enterprise pretty much back to full combat capability.

Stated in The Motion Picture, phaser power is routed through the warp core directly now. Damage the warp core and you loose primary phaser power. The Enterprise was forced to use Auxillary Power, and Kamakize Sith made a good argument how it was possibly set to a lower setting to allow for more shots.

[Isolder74]

in regards to his actions regarding the Reliant.

4> Except for the warp drive and the shields Scotty seemed to have gotten the Enterprise pretty much back to full combat capability.

Stated in The Motion Picture, phaser power is routed through the warp core directly now. Damage the warp core and you loose primary phaser power. The Enterprise was forced to use Auxillary Power, and Kamakize Sith made a good argument how it was possibly set to a lower setting to allow for more shots.

The Warp Drive wasn't completely ofline and the impulse engines still worked. Scotty also shut down thing not necicary for combat(like the turbolifts) in order to get more firepower.

[Stuart Mackey]

the flaws of the Hood really came from the Washington treaty. I made a top limit on the tonnage a ship could have(40,000 tons). Even having a light cruiser was against the Versi Treaty. they armored the Hood Heavilly on the sides but in order to meet the Washington treaty and still have the Heavier guns they were forced to lesss armor on the decks then they really wanted. Even then the Hood barely made it a legal under the treaty.

Incorrect, sorry. HMS Hood was first designed before 1916 and completed in 1920. As such for the ship to have such a radical redesign {which would have been crazy on a already overloaded ship} done for a treaty that was still being discussed {sighned in 1921}, would have been prohibitively expensive and unnecessary.

[Stuart Mackey]

the flaws of the Hood really came from the Washington treaty. I made a top limit on the tonnage a ship could have(40,000 tons). Even having a light cruiser was against the Versi Treaty. they armored the Hood Heavilly on the sides but in order to meet the Washington treaty and still have the Heavier guns they were forced to lesss armor on the decks then they really wanted. Even then the Hood barely made it a legal under the treaty.

Add inadequate safety systems/compartmentalization in the main battery magazines and you have an exploding ship.

And the Bismark getting a lucky shot just like the Japanese did on the Arizona. When the Hood was built ships didn't take many hits on the top quarter. For this reason the German purposely built into their gun tables high angle shots as standard. Also the Bismark used very high velocity guns(they loved those things almost every German gun used the principle in some way) so its penetreation power was actually better the the 16 in guns used by many of the British ships.

When Hood was built, ships could and did take plunging shots, this was inevitable at ranges over 12 000 yards, and the British had been training at these ranges since Dreadnought was built, although proper director firng was not availible till after 1912 when the first director was fitted to HMS Thunderer. Also I trust you ment 15 inch?

[Isolder74]

i said 16 in and i meant 16 in the German guns had a velocity almost twice as fast as the british weapons were using so a 15 in German gun had better penetration than the British weapons.

[Stuart Mackey]

i said 16 in and i meant 16 in the German guns had a velocity almost twice as fast as the british weapons were using so a 15 in German gun had better penetration than the British weapons.

Indeed, however you are wrong about the common British Main armaments of WW2

so its penetreation power was actually better the the 16 in guns used by many of the British ships.

Only two British ships carried the 16 inch gun, they were HM Ships Nelson and Rodney. With the exception of the Nelson's and the King George V class BB's {14inch} all British capital ships carried the 15inch 42 calibre gun.
You are right about the velocity of the German weopons, but that was not my point .

[Isolder74]

i said 16 in and i meant 16 in the German guns had a velocity almost twice as fast as the british weapons were using so a 15 in German gun had better penetration than the British weapons.

Indeed, however you are wrong about the common British Main armaments of WW2

so its penetreation power was actually better the the 16 in guns used by many of the British ships.

Only two British ships carried the 16 inch gun, they were HM Ships Nelson and Rodney. With the exception of the Nelson's and the King George V class BB's {14inch} all British capital ships carried the 15inch 42 calibre gun.
You are right about the velocity of the German weopons, but that was not my point .

my point was that the Bismark had better guns than the best British ship was carrying

[Stuart Mackey]

i said 16 in and i meant 16 in the German guns had a velocity almost twice as fast as the british weapons were using so a 15 in German gun had better penetration than the British weapons.

Indeed, however you are wrong about the common British Main armaments of WW2

so its penetreation power was actually better the the 16 in guns used by many of the British ships.

Only two British ships carried the 16 inch gun, they were HM Ships Nelson and Rodney. With the exception of the Nelson's and the King George V class BB's {14inch} all British capital ships carried the 15inch 42 calibre gun.
You are right about the velocity of the German weopons, but that was not my point .

my point was that the Bismark had better guns than the best British ship was carrying

Ok, but if you want to cite things like BB gun velocities compared to others, you do have to get the facts right it does matter, as a 15' is different to a 16'.

[Stuart Mackey]

Ships of the class:
Deutschland (1st of class, later Lützow)
Admiral Scheer
Admiral Graf Spee

Never heard of Dernitz.
Doenitz (Dönitz), though, was the leader of the German fleet durign WWII.

it was sunk in the north sea while doing convoy raids it was only operation about 4 months

What is your source for this 'Dernitz' pocket BB? I can find no mention of such a ship

[Isolder74]

Indeed, however you are wrong about the common British Main armaments of WW2
Only two British ships carried the 16 inch gun, they were HM Ships Nelson and Rodney. With the exception of the Nelson's and the King George V class BB's {14inch} all British capital ships carried the 15inch 42 calibre gun.
You are right about the velocity of the German weopons, but that was not my point .

my point was that the Bismark had better guns than the best British ship was carrying

Ok, but if you want to cite things like BB gun velocities compared to others, you do have to get the facts right it does matter, as a 15' is different to a 16'.

like you need to get your shorthand right since this means( as a 15' is different to a 16') as a 15 feet is different to a 16 feet

" this means a in i am assuming that it was simply a typo

and doubling the velococity makes a big difference since KE = 1/2mv^2

[Stuart Mackey]

[quote="Isolder74]
like you need to get your shorthand right since this means( as a 15' is different to a 16') as a 15 feet is different to a 16 feet

" this means a in i am assuming that it was simply a typo

and doubling the velococity makes a big difference since KE = 1/2mv^2[/quote]

I think my shorthand, right or wrong, is irrelivant, as the context is quite clear.
As to velocity, yes you are correct, I do not dispute this.

[Isolder74]

Ships of the class:
Deutschland (1st of class, later Lützow)
Admiral Scheer
Admiral Graf Spee

Never heard of Dernitz.
Doenitz (Dönitz), though, was the leader of the German fleet durign WWII.

it was sunk in the north sea while doing convoy raids it was only operation about 4 months

What is your source for this 'Dernitz' pocket BB? I can find no mention of such a ship

a name mixup i meant the Admiral Graf Spee and got the names mixed up with the Nazi in charge of the navy

[Stuart Mackey]

it was sunk in the north sea while doing convoy raids it was only operation about 4 months

What is your source for this 'Dernitz' pocket BB? I can find no mention of such a ship

a name mixup i meant the Admiral Graf Spee and got the names mixed up with the Nazi in charge of the navy

Damn those Nazi's! even after they lost, they still spread disinformation!

[Isolder74]

[quote="Isolder74]
like you need to get your shorthand right since this means( as a 15' is different to a 16') as a 15 feet is different to a 16 feet

" this means a in i am assuming that it was simply a typo

and doubling the velococity makes a big difference since KE = 1/2mv^2

I think my shorthand, right or wrong, is irrelivant, as the context is quite clear.
As to velocity, yes you are correct, I do not dispute this.[/quote]

I wasn't trying to insult you or be a pain im sorry if i did. the difference in mass of the two shell is about 50 kg. The German's love of HV weapons didn't save them cause the nimrod in charge was a moron. Hitler truely was the Allies best weapons he never used his equirtment in a logical manner and always tied his Generals hands.

[Isolder74]

Damn those Nazi's! even after they lost, they still spread disinformation!

I'm not a Nazi for all I care they can still spout their propagand all that they want. On of their biggest problems was the nazi leaders bought their propaganda better than the people they were lying to. I quess if you lie enough then you can't tell what's the truth anymore.

[Stuart Mackey]

[quote="Isolder74]
like you need to get your shorthand right since this means( as a 15' is different to a 16') as a 15 feet is different to a 16 feet

" this means a in i am assuming that it was simply a typo

and doubling the velococity makes a big difference since KE = 1/2mv^2

I think my shorthand, right or wrong, is irrelivant, as the context is quite clear.
As to velocity, yes you are correct, I do not dispute this.

I wasn't trying to insult you or be a pain im sorry if i did. the difference in mass of the two shell is about 50 kg. The German's love of HV weapons didn't save them cause the nimrod in charge was a moron. Hitler truely was the Allies best weapons he never used his equirtment in a logical manner and always tied his Generals hands.[/quote]

Couldnt agree more.

[Stuart Mackey]

Damn those Nazi's! even after they lost, they still spread disinformation!

I'm not a Nazi for all I care they can still spout their propagand all that they want. On of their biggest problems was the nazi leaders bought their propaganda better than the people they were lying to. I quess if you lie enough then you can't tell what's the truth anymore.

Sorry I didnt mean to suggest you were a Nazi, I was being humerous

[Isolder74]

Damn those Nazi's! even after they lost, they still spread disinformation!

I'm not a Nazi for all I care they can still spout their propagand all that they want. On of their biggest problems was the nazi leaders bought their propaganda better than the people they were lying to. I quess if you lie enough then you can't tell what's the truth anymore.

Sorry I didnt mean to suggest you were a Nazi, I was being humerous

no worries 'mate

[Isolder74]

BYW the Iowa Class used high velocity 16 in guns to try and match the Japanese's monster of a battleship the Yamato and the Musashi. The Japanese guns used the standard system for their guns but they have the distinction of haveing the largest guns ever mounted on a ship.

[Stuart Mackey]

BYW the Iowa Class used high velocity 16 in guns to try and match the Japanese's monster of a battleship the Yamato and the Musashi. The Japanese guns used the standard system for their guns but they have the distinction of haveing the largest guns ever mounted on a ship.

Indeed, Its interesting to note that despite the Yamato's size and armament, the Iow'a would have won simply beacause of vastly superiour gunnery at long ranges. Thank god for radar.

[Isolder74]

BYW the Iowa Class used high velocity 16 in guns to try and match the Japanese's monster of a battleship the Yamato and the Musashi. The Japanese guns used the standard system for their guns but they have the distinction of haveing the largest guns ever mounted on a ship.

Indeed, Its interesting to note that despite the Yamato's size and armament, the Iow'a would have won simply beacause of vastly superiour gunnery at long ranges. Thank god for radar.

The 19 in guns were phanominal but they had only developed radar range finders that ranged less than 65% of the firing range of the guns it mounted while the Iowa radars could get good info at about 85% of thier guns range. The Japanese relied almost completely on observation planes for targeting data