[b]Did the Emperor betray the Sith Order?[/b]

Spartan · Post by **Spartan** » 2002-10-08 09:17pm

Here is an idea that I wanted to run past everyone. Now we know that Darth Bane initiated the one master, one apprentice rule for Sith Lords. I believe that Palpatine betrayed the order, because he according the EU, had no intentions of full training anyone to take his place. On the other hand he did amass a large number of acolytes and adepts. He also collected large numbers of Sith artifacts and lore for study.

Your thoughts (reason for of against), please?

Spartan · Post by **Spartan** » 2002-10-08 09:19pm

Opps!

Could one of the moderators can delete the double post, please?

Post by **Kuja** » 2002-10-08 09:22pm

Were any of his other adepts named Darth? No. Vader was the TRUE apprentice.

Of course he didn't train anyone to take over! Remember, he he had the CLONES of himself. He planned to rule FOREVER. Cornor Jax had other ideas, and we waved bye-bye to Palpy.

Spartan · Post by **Spartan** » 2002-10-08 10:05pm

IG-88E wrote:

Were any of his other adepts named Darth? No. Vader was the TRUE apprentice.

Of course he didn't train anyone to take over! Remember, he he had the CLONES of himself. He planned to rule FOREVER. Cornor Jax had other ideas, and we waved bye-bye to Palpy.

Yes, I know about the clones my point was did he betray the Sith tradition. Darth Bane enacted that 2 only rule, to prevent the order from killing itself off. Why did they suddenly turn to killing each other? Because they were to weak to oppose the Jedi after "Jedi vs Sith"; and with more than two Sith hiding in close proximity to each other it was bound to happen. But don't you think that the ultimate goal for the order would be to destroy the Jedi AND replenish there numbers? In Tale of the Jedi, there are many Sith but one all powerful lord. So after he won why didn't Palpy train more Sith? Sure we got: hands, adepts, dark jedi, and darksiders; but only one Sith trainie.

My point was that Palpy seems to have abandoned the Sith teaching for personal gain. Seriously, I don't think his master, would approve of the cloning thing.

Here's another question for you; looking at all the old school Sith and Palpy alone. Should Maul, Tyranus, or Vader even be considered true Sith?

Post by **Kuja** » 2002-10-08 10:08pm

Of course they're true Sith! They were trained by a Lord, Maul had the tattoos (don't know about Dooku or Anakin but we'll see)

And whoever Palpy's master was, he probably would've APPROVED the clones. The Sith's ultimate goal has always been power. And Palpy found a way to hold the power and keep it.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2002-10-08 10:20pm

IG-88E wrote: And whoever Palpy's master was, he probably would've APPROVED the clones. The Sith's ultimate goal has always been power. And Palpy found a way to hold the power and keep it.

Hell, he'd probably be pissed he didn't think of it. As IG said, the Sith were all about power and that let him keep it, potentially forever.

And we don't know the specific rules that prevent there from being more than one Sith. It was designed as a survival measure and with the Jedi beaten or at least apparently, it could well have expired.

I have another question: how did a Sith Apprentice become a Sith Lord? I'd been under the impression that it was gained (at least in the rule of two days) by offing one's master. Provided that one doesn't get killed for trying, one then becomes the new Sith Lord. Kind of like a Fremen leadership challenge.

Post by **Kuja** » 2002-10-08 10:22pm

No, I think they waited until their master died, as Maul was.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2002-10-08 10:28pm

IG-88E wrote:No, I think they waited until their master died, as Maul was.

I though that he was eventually planning to off Sidious once he had learned enough. I could swear there was an offhand refernce to it in Shadow Hunter.

Post by **Kuja** » 2002-10-08 10:29pm

No, in SH, was let his mind wander towards taking an apprentice, then reminded himself that he would wait until Darth Sidious 'retired' and gave him leave.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2002-10-08 10:35pm

IG-88E wrote:No, in SH, was let his mind wander towards taking an apprentice, then reminded himself that he would wait until Darth Sidious 'retired' and gave him leave.

Perhaps, I misinterpreted it. Oh well, I guess that answers my question. Sort of.

Post by **Kuja** » 2002-10-08 10:37pm

Wish I had a copy here, I could verify it, but oh well.

Knife · Post by **Knife** » 2002-10-08 10:56pm

Thank IG, I posted on the other one and basicly Palpy in is a uniqe position on that he won, he is the emperor. He can now change all the rules that were in place to get him and his berthen to this point.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » 2002-10-09 10:22am

Palpatine did betray the Sith tradition of one master one apprentice, he planned to off his apprentice, Vader, and replace him with Skywalker. I had trained "Emperors Hands" and other various Dark Jedi at his command, if he hada kept it simple he's still have been in charge and the rebellion would be a few laugh lines in the history archives. Palpatine wanted personal power to weild, hence the idea of Death Stars, he did the same with the Jedi, he wanted to be the only one

Smiling Bandit · Post by **Smiling Bandit** » 2002-10-09 11:19am

Palpatine didn't "betray" anything. There was nothing to betray. The SIth tradtion such as it survived was merely a convenient philosophical approach to regaining power and destroying their old enemies, the Jedi. That's all.

Spartan · Post by **Spartan** » 2002-10-09 12:28pm

I don't agree, if you read "Golden Age of the Sith" and "Sith War" there are definite tradition that the Sith follow. There are a great many Sith, and from what we see, they are far more civilized and organized than the Lords we see during 'Sith vs. Jedi' (which is an abomination in my opinion). They didn't kill thier master's generally, they usually waited till they died. We also get the impression that though there were rivalries, they didn't normally war among themselves.

Besides we don't even know that the real reason that the Sith instituted the two only rule. Yoda tells us of the rule in TPM, but how does he know?
Also he is hardly unbiased in his opinions on the Sith. The true reason might have been for the sake of maintaining secrecy.

Of course Maul and Vader are Sith (they have the title after all), my point though is that Palpy held back on their training, as he never intended for them to succeed him. That and the fact, that other than being excellent fighters, their no more powerful that plain vanilla jedi. We've yet to see either beform the feat of old school Sith Lords. IE. force storms, star storms, force lightning, etc. That and both are beaten by Obi-wan, who wasn't even a jedi master.

Publius · Post by **Publius** » 2002-10-09 01:17pm

The Rule of Two is simply this: There are two Sith, one master and one apprentice. No more, no less.

If one were to observe the Emperor's record, he kept quite strictly to this rule. When Darth Maul was the Apprentice, there was no other Sith Lord. When Darth Vader was the Apprentice, there was no other Sith Lord (although Vader himself did break the rule by attempting to train an Apprentice of his own). After the Emperor died, he mobilised Operation Shadow Hand, which included acquiring a replacement for Lord Vader (ref. Dark Empire Sourcebook).

The Emperor did keep a cadre of other dark side users, such as Kadann, Jerec, and High Inquisitor Tremayne. However, none of these were Sith, thus ensuring that the integrity of the Rule was not violated. Of all the other dark side users, only Jerec might possibly be considered a quasi-Sith (and was indeed considered a candidate for a replacement for Lord Vader), but even he was denied the title or privileges of the Sith.

Keep in mind, the Rule of Two does not say only two dark side users, period; it merely specifies only two Sith.

Of course, the Emperor did not intend to train any Apprentice to take his place, due to the simple fact that he had become immortal; to train a successor would be meaningless, as he never intended to be succeeded. Thus, the unstated assumption -- that the Apprentice succeeds the Master in time -- was disregarded.

Strictly speaking, Darth Bane was interested in securing the hegemony of his successors, of ensuring that the Jedi were destroyed and the Sith superman ruled the galaxy. In that sense, he most probably would have approved of the Emperor's new clones.

One must keep in mind that the Sith Order, to which the Emperor belongs and which Lord Bane founded, is fundamentally different from the Sith Brotherhood (seen in The Sith War) and from the Sith Empire (seen in The Golden Age of the Sith and The Fall of the Sith Empire). The traditions of these two bodies -- and of the Brotherhood of Darkness, which gave birth to the Sith Order -- are largely irrelevant to the Sith Order.

For the record, there are actually three classes of Sith: Sith Acolyte, Sith Warrior, and Sith Lord. Lord Maul and Lord Vader (and Lord Vader's illegitimate Apprentice, Lady Lumiya) were Sith Warriors who became Sith Lords, whilst Darth Sidious was a Sith Acolyte who became a Sith Lord. There can be any combination of these three classes at any given time, with one being the Master and one being the Apprentice (ref. Dark Side Sourcebook).

In summation, did the Emperor betray the Sith Order? No. Lord Vader did, first when he trained a supernumerary bastard Sith, and finally when he attempted to kill his Master and apostatise. The Emperor did not attempt to train a supernumerary -- he clearly intended to replace Lord Vader with Skywalker -- , nor did he apostatise.

Publius

Lex · Post by **Lex** » 2002-10-09 01:33pm

I'd say Jerec was treaten as Sith!!! alto u are correct with the history, I'd say having dark side adepts, like he called em, AND jerec, was a breaking of the sith rule...

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2002-10-09 01:59pm

Eh I wouldn't use the sourcebook to highly...but then again I see it this way, why would Palp care?

He won.

He destroyed the Jedi order.

He ruled the galaxy, he could've had batches of Sith Warriors and so on but because he didn't name them Sith they are called Dark Jedi. Seriously in reading the Dark Side Sourcebook, I really don't see any advantage to be calling yourself a Sith vs not(aside from the powers only a Sith Lorde persay could access...but that's for RPG purposes).

Seriously he won...why should he care about the rule of two, that was to insure secrecy for eventual victory, hardly a notion to keep once victory was achieved.

Spartan · Post by **Spartan** » 2002-10-09 02:10pm

Hmmm....It is ofcourse possible that Darth Sidious (and perhaps even Darth Bane) always maintained lesser Sith adepts to do his biding.

Isolder74 · Post by **Isolder74** » 2002-10-09 02:16pm

It seem that The Emperor set a Sith order simialar to the Jedi order once he had eliminated the Jedi(leaving only 2). Intersting, huh, now the jedi have only 2 a master and a apprentice

Spartan · Post by **Spartan** » 2002-10-09 03:35pm

Thats a good observation. So is the force still out of balance then?
My guess is that the only way to achieve balace would be to abandon the believe in to polar sides, and try to achieve balance as an individual.

Slartibartfast · Post by **Slartibartfast** » 2002-10-10 04:51pm

If the Sith is only made of two people (one master and one apprentice), then who else's there to betray?

Spartan · Post by **Spartan** » 2002-10-13 05:48pm

Slartibartfast write:

If the Sith is only made of two people (one master and one apprentice), then who else's there to betray?

Why the legacy of the order of course!

What about all those Sith shades and specters running around. The EU's full of them and they can still interact and possess other beings. For a powerful force user mere death is someone else’s problem. Heck, there could even be more Sith out there in self imposed suspended animation, its been done before! (great fanfic idea by the way)

...And on the ancient Sith approving of Palpy cloning himself; during the Golden Age of Sith the technology was virtually the same as now (ie. technological stasis). Cloning obviously takes less technological advancement than hyperdrive does (even we have a limited ability to). So they must have had cloning even then. The funny thing though is we don't see any Sith clones, all the great lords went to there deaths. These were all power hungry men, who surly would have used any available mean to extend there lives (hence remaining on the mortal plane as spirit thing). Clearly their beliefs led them to chose the being resurrected in spirit form over being remade as a flesh and blood clone.

There a definite of betrayal of ideals here, even in Empire's End the darkside wraith ask Palpatine if he's finally ready to join them. The have a waiting sarcophagus and everything. Clearly the clone thing was and aberration in their eyes. They only aid him in trying to take over the infant Anakin; because he is the last of the living Sith, since he neglected to train a proper heir.

Slartibartfast · Post by **Slartibartfast** » 2002-10-13 11:10pm

Spartan wrote:Slartibartfast write:

If the Sith is only made of two people (one master and one apprentice), then who else's there to betray?
Why the legacy of the order of course!

What about all those Sith shades and specters running around. The EU's full of them and they can still interact and possess other beings. For a powerful force user mere death is someone else’s problem. Heck, there could even be more Sith out there in self imposed suspended animation, its been done before! (great fanfic idea by the way)

...And on the ancient Sith approving of Palpy cloning himself; during the Golden Age of Sith the technology was virtually the same as now (ie. technological stasis). Cloning obviously takes less technological advancement than hyperdrive does (even we have a limited ability to). So they must have had cloning even then. The funny thing though is we don't see any Sith clones, all the great lords went to there deaths. These were all power hungry men, who surly would have used any available mean to extend there lives (hence remaining on the mortal plane as spirit thing). Clearly their beliefs led them to chose the being resurrected in spirit form over being remade as a flesh and blood clone.

There a definite of betrayal of ideals here, even in Empire's End the darkside wraith ask Palpatine if he's finally ready to join them. The have a waiting sarcophagus and everything. Clearly the clone thing was and aberration in their eyes. They only aid him in trying to take over the infant Anakin; because he is the last of the living Sith, since he neglected to train a proper heir.

So you're saying that there's actually more Sith people out there than the "master/apprentice" pair? It would make sense, that an important evil organization isn't so small....

Don't know what's the canon status of this, but my interpretation of QuiGon's words "was he the apprentice or the master" doesn't mean that there's only one of each, but that were there's one, there should be the other.

Spartan · Post by **Spartan** » 2002-10-14 09:23am

Slartibartfast

So you're saying that there's actually more Sith people out there than the "master/apprentice" pair? It would make sense, that an important evil organization isn't so small....

Don't know what's the canon status of this, but my interpretation of QuiGon's words "was he the apprentice or the master" doesn't mean that there's only one of each, but that were there's one, there should be the other.

That's exactly what I'm saying. Even with Palpatine gone you still have the following:

1. The entire planet Korriban is covered with Sith Necropolis, practically brimming with Sith spirits, just waiting for some unsuspecting force latent fool to Stumble across them. Both Marka Ragnos and Simus continue on hundreds of years after their death, and even take apprentices!

The Sith Lords Marka Ragnos and Simus fight for control of the Sith Empire; a conflict that is decided when Ragnos decapitates Simus. Simus manages to cheat death via Sith magic and is kept alive inside a jar. (Ref: Tales of the Jedi: Golden Age of the Sith)

A power struggle is under way between Ragnos's two pupils, the complacent Ludo Kressh, and the impulsive Naga Sadow. Ragnos's spirit halts a battle between them, urging them to "choose your course wisely.... fight the correct battles.... or all is lost." On Cinnagar, Teta vows to arrest the Daragons if they return, even as Urr receives a premonition of the dark times to come. The Daragons arrive at Korriban and are immediately taken captive. Sadow sees in the Daragons a door to the Republic, and conquest. He saves them from certain execution at Ziost fortress, murders his old ally Simus (a disembodied former enemy of Ragnos), takes the two in at his fortress at Khar Shian and declares himself Dark Lord of the Sith. He made the escape look like a Republic raid, and he calls for war.

2. It's official fact that Sith and Jedi can extend there lives through the use of the force. Marka Ragnos lived at minimum two years!

A hundred years after his victory over Simus, Marka Ragnos is declared Dark Lord of the Sith, beginning a century of iron rule. (ref: Tales of the Jedi: Golden Age of the Sith" and “SW RPG II: Dark Side Sourcebook.” [Page 69-70]

3. Sith and Jedi are able to place themselves in suspended animation.

They bring him to the ancient temples, where he finds and revives Naga Sadow from his cryogenic slumber. Sadow spends the rest of his natural life training Nadd in the ways of the ancient Sith.
“The Essential Chronology.”

4. Oh and the numerous possesed Sith holocrons and artifacts.

THE SITH WILL NEVER DIE!!!