The CIA says Bin Laden is still alive

Hamel · Post by **Hamel** » 2004-01-05 10:46pm

My smoke alarm just went beserk

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2004-01-05 10:48pm

Ah yes, the magical TOTAL INFORMATION AWARENESS program and PATRIOT ACT OF JUSTICE will defend you from any more nasty terrorists. You're in denial or being fed nonsense by those in denial. Please bugger off.

I think you forgot the standard reference to jingoism.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2004-01-05 10:50pm

Joe wrote:
Ah yes, the magical TOTAL INFORMATION AWARENESS program and PATRIOT ACT OF JUSTICE will defend you from any more nasty terrorists. You're in denial or being fed nonsense by those in denial. Please bugger off.
I think you forgot the standard reference to jingoism.

I'm not devoting alot of time to my politics writing, forgive me. Do you have any reason why we should disregard OBL apart from vague handwaving?

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2004-01-05 10:53pm

SirNitram wrote:You're a gullible little moron.

Ah, from the cornicopia of Appeals to Motive, Hasty Generalizations, and CO2 is a evil toxin.

SirNitram wrote:Why should we assume OBL is not a threat?

Moron. Basic rules of logic. Don't make Appeals to Ignorance. He's been stripped of his bases and much of his command structure and grunts in Afghanistan.

All video suggests he's wandering and hiding out in the middle of nowhere.

You implied Durran was a moron for not assuming OBL was a key objective against Al Queda--an assumption you did not, and still haven't justified, idiot.

Instead of thinking he might mean that, you, in that brilliant pinhead of yours, decided to lump him with everyone else who doesn't think OBL is that important anymore, and outright disregard their comments by Appealing to Motive. You're an imbecile.

SirNitram wrote:People say this without anything to back it up, and you claim I'm the one distributing fallacies?

You don't back up "not" statements. That's a negative, you fucking moron.

SirNitram wrote:Oh yes, I'm calling an appeal to motive on Joe. Not quite, though I'm sure it would make you happy. I'm pointing out the likely reason why someone would suddenly say this.. But it has to be against Joe, for you to claim it's nonsense.

Rather than attacking their reasoning itself for what they say, you undermine it roundabout by asking why they would have such reasoning. That's motive, and you're still appealing to it, fuckhead.

SirNitram wrote:But please. Go ahead. Continue to screech that I'm wrong and you're right. If you have some, oh, proof that OBL is now powerless, it'd be grand to see it.

Nothing exists until shown to. I don't see why Joe and I should assume OBL is the master ringleader integral to stopping Al Queda when he's hobbling through the mountains and making pathetic proclamations. I think that view by us is just fine, and I'd appreciate if you'd attack the view, not the reasons we might have for assuming it.

You're the one who's suggesting he has power, and asking us to disprove that. Well fuck you. You're not shifting the burden of proof.

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2004-01-05 10:58pm

What can he do? His base of operations was destroyed, and if he's not constantly on the run than he's in Syria or Jordan, where he can't do shit. The guy's been promising death to Americans in all sorts of ways for months, and he hasn't produced shit. He's becoming less and less the most powerful Islamic terrorist in the world and world and more Baghdad Bob with each increasingly pathetic tape. I fail to see why I have to go to any length to prove he's no longer a threat; if anything, the burden of proof lies on you, after what happened in Afghanistan.

Iceberg · Post by **Iceberg** » 2004-01-05 10:58pm

I'll believe Bin Laden is no longer a threat when he's rotting for the rest of his miserable life in the deepest, dankest hole-in-the-ground Federal pen we can put him in. Until that time, better safe than sorry.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2004-01-05 11:01pm

Iceberg wrote:I'll believe Bin Laden is no longer a threat when he's rotting for the rest of his miserable life in the deepest, dankest hole-in-the-ground Federal pen we can put him in. Until that time, better safe than sorry.

Oh I agree, I just think other work against Al Queda and their base of support worldwide is more important and more effective, but me believing that he's insignificant in the scheme of things means that me and the other silly Yanks know we bumfucked ourselves up, and are just trying to cover our bums.

Y'know?

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2004-01-05 11:02pm

Federal pen? No, no, assuming Americans capture him and get to try him, he's getting the death penalty.

Darth Raptor · Post by **Darth Raptor** » 2004-01-05 11:05pm

Joe wrote:Federal pen? No, no, assuming Americans capture him and get to try him, he's getting the death penalty.

Undoubtedly, but that's only after we've sucked him completely dry of everything he knows.

Iceberg · Post by **Iceberg** » 2004-01-05 11:05pm

Joe wrote:Federal pen? No, no, assuming Americans capture him and get to try him, he's getting the death penalty.

The death penalty is too easy for him. The worst kind of death for his like is a forgotten death, captive of his enemies and locked away forever but not worth the effort of actively destroying.

Darth Raptor · Post by **Darth Raptor** » 2004-01-05 11:09pm

You can't seriously believe that if and when we capture Bin Laden, that he won't eventually face execution. The people will demand it.

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2004-01-05 11:57pm

Bin Laden is no longer important? Oh puh-fucking-leeze. I can't believe you're actually serious, Joe. He's important for the same reason that Saddam is important: a symbol. I suppose that had Hitler not killed himself and instead escaped into exile somewhere, it wouldn't have been important at all to hunt him down even after Nazi Germany fell.

When we finally bring his head home on a pike, you'll be jumping for joy and hailing the War on Terror as a success along with Bush, so don't drop this bullshit. When you outline a set of goals in a war, like the War on Terror, you'd better damn well follow through. The original goals were to bring bin Laden's skinny ass to justice and cripple him. Well, the second part worked, but it seems that backpedaling is the order of the day with this administration and its supporters. We're just going to forget about bin Laden until a) he is captured by some incredible turn of luck before November or b) Bush gets reelected.

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2004-01-06 12:30am

How many fucking times am I going to have to repeat myself; I think bin Laden should be captured, and that we should do EVERYTHING within our ability to capture him! I was merely trying to point out that he is no longer a serious threat (i.e., not someone who we should sink resources into finding when said resources wouldn't be very effective at doing so), which he isn't. I am not going to go through this exercise again.

When we finally bring his head home on a pike, you'll be jumping for joy and hailing the War on Terror as a success along with Bush, so don't drop this bullshit. When you outline a set of goals in a war, like the War on Terror, you'd better damn well follow through. The original goals were to bring bin Laden's skinny ass to justice and cripple him. Well, the second part worked, but it seems that backpedaling is the order of the day with this administration and its supporters. We're just going to forget about bin Laden until a) he is captured by some incredible turn of luck before November or b) Bush gets reelected.

If we bring his head home on a pike. He could very well die while in hiding and never be found, which will surely be written off as yet another failure of the Bush administration.

I certainly won't hesitate to congratulate whoever is responsible for finding him in the event that he is found, and if it is the U.S. I will be very happy with what will surely be a intelligence coup on our part. But I won't pretend that it's a huge victory in the WoT (and do not presume to speak for me and tell me that I will, unless you've developed the latent ability to take a psychic journey into my mind), because that victory was won months ago.

Also, please point out to me where I have stated that capturing bin Laden should have been the primary, overriding goal all along. The Bush administration's position is not necessarily the position of many of its defenders on certain issues, shocking as that might be to you with whom dissent is apparently not allowed amongst conservatives. Capturing him should still be a goal, although not one that should take precedence over others (not that capturing him is a goal exclusive from all others), However, having weakened him to what he is now is an accomplishment much more significant than his hopefully inevitable capture, just like utterly destroying the Third Reich would have dwarfed the capture of Adolf Hitler, had it occured.

0.1 · Post by **0.1** » 2004-01-06 03:23am

Psst, why worry about this, everyone with even the slightest amount of brains know that the Republicans has gotten hold of Osama and is just waiting to unleash him as the October surprise for the Democrats.

The CIA is drugging him, and making him do these periodic messages to make it seem as if he is still out there running around. That'll make success look so much better come late 2004.

Moreover, Bush could've stopped Osama before Sept 11th, didn't you get the memo? The Repubs are smart, they wanted to get ahead and use national security to turn attention away from a bad economy, so they let Osama do his little deed. Viola, instant enemy for everyone to focus their energies on.

The external enemy is always easier to deal with than internal problems. It's a part of the Bush master plan... I mean, sure everyone knows Bush is an idiot, but he is simultaneously one of the most diabolical man around, setting up this situation so that it'll benefit him almost four years down the road for the next election. See how ironic that is? Stupid and brilliant all wrapped up in the same pacakage.

In fact, there is solid evidence (check any website, i.e. moveon.org) that Bush is setting himself up to be the king of the USA. Now, that is just wrong.... someone has to stop that before it happens.

Just in case people here don't quite get it.

Hamel · Post by **Hamel** » 2004-01-06 03:47am

Whatchu talkin bout~?

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2004-01-06 04:03am

Just because he is no longer an immediate threat does not mean that finding him isn't important. He still needs to be brought to justice, regardless of whether or not he is a danger anymore, which it seems that he isn't.

Post by **The Yosemite Bear** » 2004-01-06 04:41am

what if OBL breaks Illieach Rameriz Sanchez (Carlos) out of Jail?

The_Nice_Guy · Post by **The_Nice_Guy** » 2004-01-06 08:01am

If OSL's still alive, then he's pathetic beyond hope.

I mean, he can't even get a cheapo digital camera to rally his troops! Just a few measly tapes?!? Hell, just a photo with him holding a recent newspaper would be all that's needed to inspire the islamo-fascists that their great leader is still alive.

For this reason, I think he's dead, and the CIA is crapping out their asses, as usual.

The Wobbly Guy

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2004-01-06 01:42pm

The Yosemite Bear wrote:what if OBL breaks Illieach Rameriz Sanchez (Carlos) out of Jail?

Carlos the Jackal? He hasn't the balls to do that anyway, likely Carlos would shoot him on site for the fun of it.

Sarevok · Post by **Sarevok** » 2004-01-07 03:32am

It is the idea of OBL and his theorcratic revolution that everyone should be worried about, not the man himself. Osama will die one day but his ideas will continue to live on. That is the most dangerous thing about this man. Bringing Osama to justice is long overdue but it will not solve the problem of terrorism.

BlkbrryTheGreat · Post by **BlkbrryTheGreat** » 2004-01-07 04:57am

Is there actually any tangible evidence, beyond easily faked tapes, that Osama is actually alive at this point?

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2004-01-07 05:00am

Only several tapes that have been thoroughly analyzed by several intelligence agencies and deemed genuine

Sarevok · Post by **Sarevok** » 2004-01-07 05:10am

BlkbrryTheGreat wrote:Is there actually any tangible evidence, beyond easily faked tapes, that Osama is actually alive at this point?

Al-Jazeera no longer needs him at this point. Now they mostly show other things like Iraq, Palestine etc. So I doubt it that Al-Jazeera would fake Osama to boost viewer numbers.

BTW does anyone know that Al-Quedas second in command (forgot his name) recently claimed that they had defeated America in Afganistan ? Either they are getting too desparate or going crazy.

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2004-01-07 06:19am

We'll find him in his own good time, like we did Saddam. We're not going
to win this war overnight. It's a long slog fought in the shadows, without
publicity, where our successes will remain silent for at least ten years or
more to protect our sources and informants.

If you want proof, look at the prisoner population of Guantimo Bay. Those
aren't people who're singing KumBay-ya and holding hands and wishing
for world peace.

BlkbrryTheGreat · Post by **BlkbrryTheGreat** » 2004-01-07 04:41pm

Howedar wrote:Only several tapes that have been thoroughly analyzed by several intelligence agencies and deemed genuine

You mean the same intelligence agencies who fabricated and presented false evidence for Bush's State of the Union address?