Daily Kos wrote:...we now have additional confirmation that this entire enterprise was for naught. We've lost 500 soldiers and counting, hundreds of billions of dollars, and emnity around the world. And for what? For nothing.
CNN wrote:Iraq had ended its weapons of mass destruction programs by the mid-1990s and did not pose an immediate threat to the United States before the war, according to a report released Thursday.
Bush administration officials likely pushed U.S. intelligence assessors to conform with its view the country posed an impending danger, said one of the authors of the study.
The Carnegie Endowment for International Peace -- a nonpartisan, respected group that opposed the war in Iraq -- conducted the study.
It follows a nine-month search in Iraq for weapons of mass destruction -- nuclear, biological and chemical -- the key reason the administration cited in its decision to invade Iraq.
"We looked at the intelligence assessment process, and we've come to the conclusion that it is broken," author Joseph Cirincione said Thursday on CNN's "American Morning." [...]
More than 1,000 U.S. inspectors have worked daily since before the war began in March, searching the country and interviewing scientists and other Iraqi officials, according to Cirincione.
"We found nothing," Cirincione said. "There are no large stockpiles of weapons. There hasn't actually been a find of a single weapon, a single weapons agent, nothing like the programs that the administration believe existed."
Nothing, nothing, nothing. So the admininstration now tries to minimize the WMD issue, even though it was public reason Number One to go to war. We are told about Saddam's brutality, even as this administration sends $500 million annually to brutal regimes that boil their dissidents alive. (And that's just the tip of the iceberg regarding brutal regimes the US funds.)
No -- the only valid reason this administration could've ever had to invade Iraq was a clear threat to our national security. And the fact is, the administration's WMD were grounded in LIES.
Nathan F wrote:So...Saddam should have stayed in power? Whether you like it or not, the world is better without the SOB.
The world would be better off without a LOT of SOBs. The point of the article is that our wonderful freedom loving government is quite happy to fund total bastards that suck up to the US. Hell, where do you think Saddam got his backing from? If not for the US sending him money and weapons he never would've gained power in the first place.
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Nathan F wrote:So...Saddam should have stayed in power? Whether you like it or not, the world is better without the SOB.
Nathan, but that's not the point. While I agree with you... my support for the war was originally based off the belief that we were in eminent danger from Iraq. As in NBC kind of danger.
The justification for invading because Saddam was a very bad man, is only after the fact that no WMDs have been found.
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Like I was saying last night at the Dean2004 Meetup:
In the 1940s, Stalin called Americans who were objectively pro-communism "useful idiots." Now, the useful idiots are the Americans who make up excuses for the excesses and abuses of President George W. Bush.
Feh.
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I'm not a man. I just portrayed one for 15 years.
regardless of whether there are/are not wmds, I still support the removal of tyrants.
and yes, I would reccomend it for others as well. no need for iraq to be the exception - lets make it the precedent.
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Oh yes. It's about 'removing tyrants'. Nevermind that the US removed one that was unable to affect thigns on the large scale, instead of dealing with one of the many who could cause lots of trouble.
This, of course, causes us to once again question: Why Saddam? He was clearly as dangerous as a newborn kitten to the US. The obvious reasons, of course, will be denounced as 'anti Bush propaganda', but.
Manic Progressive: A liberal who violently swings from anger at politicos to despondency over them.
Out Of Context theatre: Ron Paul has repeatedly said he's not a racist. - Destructinator XIII on why Ron Paul isn't racist.
Nathan, but that's not the point. While I agree with you... my support for the war was originally based off the belief that we were in eminent danger from Iraq. As in NBC kind of danger.
Then you obviously weren't paying attention.
"Some have said we must not act until the threat is imminent. Since when have terrorists and tyrants announced their intentions, politely putting us on notice before they strike? If this threat is permitted to fully and suddenly emerge, all actions, all words, and all recriminations would come too late," said George W. Bush, Jan. 28, 2003.
In other words, no imminent threat.
Oh yes. It's about 'removing tyrants'. Nevermind that the US removed one that was unable to affect thigns on the large scale, instead of dealing with one of the many who could cause lots of trouble.
Right, other than making Gaddafi give up his nuclear program (and the Americans are welcome to take a look at anything they like), and getting the Saudis to start cleaning up their shit (ref.), and that's just what's happened so far.
BoTM / JL / MM / HAB / VRWC / Horseman
I'm studying for the CPA exam. Have a nice summer, and if you're down just sit back and realize that Joe is off somewhere, doing much worse than you are.
Admiral Valdemar wrote:If America gets rid of real tyrants like Mugabe, I'll be happy.
Saddam wasn't a real tyrant?
BoTM / JL / MM / HAB / VRWC / Horseman
I'm studying for the CPA exam. Have a nice summer, and if you're down just sit back and realize that Joe is off somewhere, doing much worse than you are.
Admiral Valdemar wrote:If America gets rid of real tyrants like Mugabe, I'll be happy.
Saddam wasn't a real tyrant?
I don't recall him doing much to warrant news lately. His tyrannical actions happened over the course of 40 years. Mugabe is every bit as justified for deposing and his actions, if stopped now, could easily prevent a major catastrophe.
Admiral Valdemar wrote:If America gets rid of real tyrants like Mugabe, I'll be happy.
Saddam wasn't a real tyrant?
I don't recall him doing much to warrant news lately. His tyrannical actions happened over the course of 40 years. Mugabe is every bit as justified for deposing and his actions, if stopped now, could easily prevent a major catastrophe.
You mean like that current, entirely manmade famine of his in Zimbabwe? I think it's a little late to prevent the catastrophe. Of course they probably wouldn't go after him because that would be 'racism'. Probably why everybody panders to Mugabe.
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SDNW4 Nation: The Refuge And, on Nova Terra, Al-Stan the Totally and Completely Honest and Legitimate Weapons Dealer and Used Starship Salesman slept on a bed made of money, with a blaster under his pillow and his sombrero pulled over his face. This is to say, he slept very well indeed.
Admiral Valdemar wrote:If America gets rid of real tyrants like Mugabe, I'll be happy.
Saddam wasn't a real tyrant?
I don't recall him doing much to warrant news lately. His tyrannical actions happened over the course of 40 years. Mugabe is every bit as justified for deposing and his actions, if stopped now, could easily prevent a major catastrophe.
He stole money from his people to gold-plate toilets and we've found 40 mass graves so far. Is it so unbelievable that maybe this guy hadn't discovered his good side and relinquished this kind of behavior over the years?
As for Mugabe? You're right. All in due time, I should hope.
BoTM / JL / MM / HAB / VRWC / Horseman
I'm studying for the CPA exam. Have a nice summer, and if you're down just sit back and realize that Joe is off somewhere, doing much worse than you are.
I don't recall him doing much to warrant news lately. His tyrannical actions happened over the course of 40 years. Mugabe is every bit as justified for deposing and his actions, if stopped now, could easily prevent a major catastrophe.
He stole money from his people to gold-plate toilets and we've found 40 mass graves so far. Is it so unbelievable that maybe this guy hadn't discovered his good side and relinquished this kind of behavior over the years?
As for Mugabe? You're right. All in due time, I should hope.
I'm glad he's out, but really, this is something we should have ended in '91, not '03.
Now, if Mugabe and others like him were also warned or even put on a list instead of just making this Axis of Evil schtick, I'd be impressed.
Dethroning one tyrant and declaring the moral upperhand isn't going to last forever, this could be a full time job.
I'm glad he's out, but really, this is something we should have ended in '91, not '03.
Seconded.
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I'm studying for the CPA exam. Have a nice summer, and if you're down just sit back and realize that Joe is off somewhere, doing much worse than you are.
I won't second it. That's not what the Coalition had agreed to do from the outset, and marching to Baghdad unilaterally could have cost us vital support. Bush Elder had the brains to realize anything less than occupation would have just left a power vacuum (to be filled by someone possibly just as brutal if not moreso) and that an occupation would be an unsavory task.
Admiral Valdemar wrote:If America gets rid of real tyrants like Mugabe, I'll be happy.
That's YOUR fucking job, Britain. YOU were
the ones who fucking put him in power by forcing Rhodesia to put ZANU-PF
into power.
Saddam was OUR problem. We fixed that problem. Now it's time for Britain
to fix their mistakes
"If scientists and inventors who develop disease cures and useful technologies don't get lifetime royalties, I'd like to know what fucking rationale you have for some guy getting lifetime royalties for writing an episode of Full House." - Mike Wong
"The present air situation in the Pacific is entirely the result of fighting a fifth rate air power." - U.S. Navy Memo - 24 July 1944
Britain removing dangerous psychopaths from power? Okay. We'll be nipping down the Potomac in a few days to take Bush off your hands and burn that horrendous House down again.
I see now why this motivation wasn't the one sold to the public. It's a load of crap.
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Out Of Context theatre: Ron Paul has repeatedly said he's not a racist. - Destructinator XIII on why Ron Paul isn't racist.
Admiral Valdemar wrote:If America gets rid of real tyrants like Mugabe, I'll be happy.
That's YOUR fucking job, Britain. YOU were
the ones who fucking put him in power by forcing Rhodesia to put ZANU-PF
into power.
Saddam was OUR problem. We fixed that problem. Now it's time for Britain
to fix their mistakes
We've frozen his assets and done enough economic damage as we can. For military action, America needs to join in since we helped with Saddam, it is only fair you deal with Mugabe also.
Admiral Valdemar wrote:
We've frozen his assets and done enough economic damage as we can. For military action, America needs to join in since we helped with Saddam, it is only fair you deal with Mugabe also.
So you're saying that the Almighty British Army can't somehow overthrow
a tinpot dictator in an AFRICAN country? How the mighty have fallen since
1982.
"If scientists and inventors who develop disease cures and useful technologies don't get lifetime royalties, I'd like to know what fucking rationale you have for some guy getting lifetime royalties for writing an episode of Full House." - Mike Wong
"The present air situation in the Pacific is entirely the result of fighting a fifth rate air power." - U.S. Navy Memo - 24 July 1944
MKSheppard wrote:
So you're saying that the Almighty British Army can't somehow overthrow
a tinpot dictator in an AFRICAN country? How the mighty have fallen since
1982.
I do suppose we could spare a company of Rangers....that would be enough
to seize half of Zimbawawe
"If scientists and inventors who develop disease cures and useful technologies don't get lifetime royalties, I'd like to know what fucking rationale you have for some guy getting lifetime royalties for writing an episode of Full House." - Mike Wong
"The present air situation in the Pacific is entirely the result of fighting a fifth rate air power." - U.S. Navy Memo - 24 July 1944
MKSheppard wrote:So you're saying that the Almighty British Army can't somehow overthrow
a tinpot dictator in an AFRICAN country? How the mighty have fallen since
1982.
Not so much "can't" as it is "won't." At least not right now.
BoTM / JL / MM / HAB / VRWC / Horseman
I'm studying for the CPA exam. Have a nice summer, and if you're down just sit back and realize that Joe is off somewhere, doing much worse than you are.
Admiral Valdemar wrote:
We've frozen his assets and done enough economic damage as we can. For military action, America needs to join in since we helped with Saddam, it is only fair you deal with Mugabe also.
So you're saying that the Almighty British Army can't somehow overthrow
a tinpot dictator in an AFRICAN country? How the mighty have fallen since
1982.
They got wasted on a war against a dictator that didn't even have the tin pot.
Still, gotta love the excuses being thrown out. Now we've got 'It's okay because Kosovo happened and no one found the graves there'. Red Herring, anyone?
Manic Progressive: A liberal who violently swings from anger at politicos to despondency over them.
Out Of Context theatre: Ron Paul has repeatedly said he's not a racist. - Destructinator XIII on why Ron Paul isn't racist.
Still, gotta love the excuses being thrown out. Now we've got 'It's okay because Kosovo happened and no one found the graves there'. Red Herring, anyone?
It's not an excuse so much as it is an illustration of the fact that intelligence is a hit-and-miss game, even when Republicans are in power.
BoTM / JL / MM / HAB / VRWC / Horseman
I'm studying for the CPA exam. Have a nice summer, and if you're down just sit back and realize that Joe is off somewhere, doing much worse than you are.
Still, gotta love the excuses being thrown out. Now we've got 'It's okay because Kosovo happened and no one found the graves there'. Red Herring, anyone?
It's not an excuse so much as it is an illustration of the fact that intelligence is a hit-and-miss game, even when Republicans are in power.
So the excuse is now 'The intelligence was so faulty we accidentally used papers we already knew were forged to make our national address for this war'?
Manic Progressive: A liberal who violently swings from anger at politicos to despondency over them.
Out Of Context theatre: Ron Paul has repeatedly said he's not a racist. - Destructinator XIII on why Ron Paul isn't racist.
