Papal Succession

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-10-09 08:44pm

When a Pope dies, all of the Cardinals get together, lock the door, and try to decide who should be the new Pope. My friend and I were thinking about this today, and it does not appear to make any sense. How can an infallible being be elected by fallible human beings?

We eventually decided that the best thing for the cardinals to do would be to play rock-paper-scissors. In this manner, God could have some influence over the outcome of the events. It would have to be single-elimination (as opposed to "two out of three"), and it would have to continue until everyone had lost except for one. Random chance is the ONLY method of selecting someone so that God has the proper influence over the decision. What do you guys think they should do, and what do you think of my idea?

HemlockGrey · Post by **HemlockGrey** » 2002-10-09 08:55pm

The Pope should be elected by a lottery. As in, the Pennsylvannia state lottery.

Post by **haas mark** » 2002-10-09 08:59pm

They all throw those hats up (can't remember the name of them) and whoever's lands standing up is the Pope.

salm · Post by **salm** » 2002-10-09 09:03pm

Master of Ossus wrote:When a Pope dies, all of the Cardinals get together, lock the door, and try to decide who should be the new Pope. My friend and I were thinking about this today, and it does not appear to make any sense. How can an infallible being be elected by fallible human beings?

We eventually decided that the best thing for the cardinals to do would be to play rock-paper-scissors. In this manner, God could have some influence over the outcome of the events. It would have to be single-elimination (as opposed to "two out of three"), and it would have to continue until everyone had lost except for one. Random chance is the ONLY method of selecting someone so that God has the proper influence over the decision. What do you guys think they should do, and what do you think of my idea?

he probably becomes unfailable by god´s will after his election or some crap like that.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-10-09 09:07pm

salm wrote:he probably becomes unfailable by god´s will after his election or some crap like that.

No, no. Even his decisions BEFORE he was made the Pope become infallible. He essentially becomes perfect for life, even before he is made the Pope.

CorSec · Post by **CorSec** » 2002-10-09 09:14pm

Master of Ossus wrote:No, no. Even his decisions BEFORE he was made the Pope become infallible. He essentially becomes perfect for life, even before he is made the Pope.

Wrong. The pope in daily life isn't infallible. Only official statements (Papal Bills) are deemed perfect or divine in nature. Anything Pope John Paul II says at a mass or any other routine public appearance is just that; routine.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-10-09 09:21pm

CorSec wrote:
Master of Ossus wrote:No, no. Even his decisions BEFORE he was made the Pope become infallible. He essentially becomes perfect for life, even before he is made the Pope.
Wrong. The pope in daily life isn't infallible. Only official statements (Papal Bills) are deemed perfect or divine in nature. Anything Pope John Paul II says at a mass or any other routine public appearance is just that; routine.

Really? I had heard that they called everything the Pope did perfect. Did they change that as the Church got older, or has it always been that way?

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2002-10-09 09:25pm

Master of Ossus wrote:
CorSec wrote:
Master of Ossus wrote:No, no. Even his decisions BEFORE he was made the Pope become infallible. He essentially becomes perfect for life, even before he is made the Pope.
Wrong. The pope in daily life isn't infallible. Only official statements (Papal Bills) are deemed perfect or divine in nature. Anything Pope John Paul II says at a mass or any other routine public appearance is just that; routine.
Really? I had heard that they called everything the Pope did perfect. Did they change that as the Church got older, or has it always been that way?

Sorry MoO But Corsec beat me to it. The Pope is only considered infallable in proclamations on matters of faith. Otherwise he is as human as the rest of us.

CorSec · Post by **CorSec** » 2002-10-09 09:28pm

Master of Ossus wrote:Really? I had heard that they called everything the Pope did perfect. Did they change that as the Church got older, or has it always been that way?

That I'm not sure about. But it is apparently a widely held misconception of the church. (Even I thought that was true until recently.)

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2002-10-09 09:50pm

Master of Ossus wrote:How can an infallible being be elected by fallible human beings?

Special Cardinal superpowers? Like suppressing sex crimes and covering up abuse.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2002-10-09 09:51pm

Master of Ossus wrote:Really? I had heard that they called everything the Pope did perfect. Did they change that as the Church got older, or has it always been that way?

The Pope is supposed to be infallible in his official capacity as Pope. Any other time he's fallible.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2002-10-09 09:57pm

I have a foolproof method of electing a pope as chosen by God:

Lay out a dense minefield.
Line up the candidates at one end.
Make them run to the other side.

If more than one survives, repeat the process. If one survives, then God has chosen. If none of them survive, then God must not want the Catholic church to continue.

Post by **haas mark** » 2002-10-09 09:59pm

I'll agree with that...let's hope none survive...

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-10-09 10:01pm

Be sure the mines are densely packed.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » 2002-10-09 10:03pm

I'm Catholic, but I don't take that "the papal infallibility" crap. Wasn't that only declared in the 1st Vatican Council (1870)? There are so many contradictions between what each pope declares.

BTW I should not have read Durandal's site a while back. I'm beginning to feel an agnostic or an atheist. Not good. Sure I know religion is illogical. So what?

Oh and isn't Durandal the runway penetrating bomb, which is named after what?

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2002-10-09 10:03pm

Darth Wong wrote:I have a foolproof method of electing a pope as chosen by God:

Lay out a dense minefield.

Line up the candidates at one end.

Make them run to the other side.
If more than one survives, repeat the process. If one survives, then God has chosen. If none of them survive, then God must not want the Catholic church to continue.

Why not employ the fair (aka death trap) tests for withcraft. If they worked then to find the holy, they oughta work to find the holy now. And afte, they are already church approved!

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2002-10-09 10:50pm

Papal infallability has existed at least since the 1300s, as it was one of the causes of the Great Schism. There were multiple Popes, and each one said that the followers of the other would go to Hell. A hell of a lot of people played it safe and followed neither.

Spoonist · Post by **Spoonist** » 2002-10-10 02:52am

Here is the catholic encyclopedia which will be clear and specific and to the point when it comes to this

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07790a.htm
Do check it out, it's quite interesting, here is a small quote:

"EXPLANATION OF PAPAL INFALLIBILITY
The Vatican Council has defined as "a divinely revealed dogma" that "the Roman Pontiff, when he speaks ex cathedra -- that is, when in the exercise of his office as pastor and teacher of all Christians he defines, by virtue of his supreme Apostolic authority, a doctrine of faith or morals to be held by the whole Church -- is, by reason of the Divine assistance promised to him in blessed Peter, possessed of that infallibility with which the Divine Redeemer wished His Church to be endowed in defining doctrines of faith and morals; and consequently that such definitions of the Roman Pontiff are irreformable of their own nature (ex sese) and not by reason of the Church's consent" (Densinger no. 1839 -- old no. 1680). "

johnpham wrote:Oh and isn't Durandal the runway penetrating bomb, which is named after what?

It's a sword, hence the name of the missile:
http://www.pantheon.org/articles/d/durandal.html

Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi · Post by **Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi** » 2002-10-10 04:57pm

The problem with the Church is that it's too one-sided. There are Christians out there who support safe . There are Christians out there who think stem-cell research is pro-life. I'm one of them. If the Pope dies, the next one should support decisions that save lives, even if they're against something in the Bible.

Post by **Lagmonster** » 2002-10-10 05:01pm

Darth Wong wrote:I have a foolproof method of electing a pope as chosen by God:

Lay out a dense minefield.

Line up the candidates at one end.

Make them run to the other side.
If more than one survives, repeat the process. If one survives, then God has chosen. If none of them survive, then God must not want the Catholic church to continue.

Didn't they use that method to decide if people were guilty of crimes or not back in the middle ages, except using men with horses and big swords instead? Something about "Let God choose if he's guilty or not by giving his fighting champion strength".

salm · Post by **salm** » 2002-10-10 05:10pm

Ryoga · Post by **Ryoga** » 2002-10-10 07:32pm

Maybe it goes something like on The Simpsons

*At Moe's, Homer and the gang are picking a designated driver*
MOE: Okay, we'll pick the same way they pick the Pope. *pulls out a jar of pickled eggs* Whoever picks out the black egg is 'it'.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2002-10-11 02:12pm

Darth Wong wrote:I have a foolproof method of electing a pope as chosen by God:

Lay out a dense minefield.

Line up the candidates at one end.

Make them run to the other side.
If more than one survives, repeat the process. If one survives, then God has chosen. If none of them survive, then God must not want the Catholic church to continue.

No, you just start doing the same with archbishops.. then bishops...

C.S.Strowbridge · Post by **C.S.Strowbridge** » 2002-10-11 05:06pm

NecronLord wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:I have a foolproof method of electing a pope as chosen by God:

Lay out a dense minefield.

Line up the candidates at one end.

Make them run to the other side.
If more than one survives, repeat the process. If one survives, then God has chosen. If none of them survive, then God must not want the Catholic church to continue.
No, you just start doing the same with archbishops.. then bishops...

Hell, if you've got enough mines you could fix all the problems with the Catholic Chuch.

Post by **Colonel Olrik** » 2002-10-11 05:12pm

C.S.Strowbridge wrote: Hell, if you've got enough mines you could fix all the problems with the Catholic Chuch.

First fix your own fundies. They're far worse

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