Extended Universe Blows so much

[Falcon]

I'm sure this has been posted before, but I just got back from reading the latest in mind numbing rectal vomit (The Unified Force) put out under the banner of 'Star Wars' these days and felt like ranting. The Force, which had up until this point been largely left alone, has now been laid on the chopping block of political correct whitewashing. No longer is there such a thing as the 'dark side' and the 'light side.' Oh no, now the Force is One with everything; what the Jedi had mistakenly called the dark side (you know, where you get all genocidally midevil in your thrist for power?) is now simple the 'raw untamed' part of the force which is closely attuned with nature. Thats right, the Emperor was getting in touch with mother earth as he fried Luke like a KFC bucket. The Force is also now mainly useless except for preaching mindless philosophy to the reader and\or forming hive mind like communications al la Borg. Does it stop there though? Noooo, next the utterly rediculous organic technology theme is taken to the next level with an ORGANIC THINKING PLANET. This planet is supposedly the key to victory (apparently its the only thing that can stand up to organic ships) so Luke & Co. go off in search of it. Of course it has no weapons, being a pacafist planet, and it screws itself up if it has to unexpectedly jump into hyperspace(?!) but its still all big n bad(tm), or so we're to believe. The organic onslaught (by the Vong) has of course decimated the SW galaxy and its 'primitive' arsenal of planet busting superweapons which the ALLIANCE REFUSES TO BUILD OR USE. Their galaxy is being overrun, you'd think it might be prudent to build some Death Stars to turn the tide, but instead when they did get an efective weapon (a plauge, surprise surprise) the JEDI refused to let them use it (even going so far as to destroy it) because it was a genocidal weapon. I'm sorry, when exactly did the Jedi start interfearing with official Republic business? Since when did anyone in the SW universe have a problem using WMD (their ships are WMD for crying out loud). This isn't the best part though, get this, the Jedi (who no longer believe in light vs dark anymore) destroyed the germ because they feared that using it would push the alliance over to the dark side! The book can't even keep its own convaluted storyline correct within a few pages of itself. Apparently this fear arises due to the Vong which were apparently stripped of the Force (by some Force gods?) for being an evil race and misusing their mighty organic technology. This is the biggest load of crock I've ever seen. I can't believe Lucas let them do this to his universe.

/rant

sorry if this has been discussed at length elsewhere or if everyone quitely agreed to never speak of it ever again since its so maddening

[Super-Gagme]

Ahem 'Expanded' Universe.

[Falcon]

[zombie84]

I agree. The EU is comprised of shitty sci fi written by equally horrid writers--for the most part at least. Theres a diamond in the rough here and there, but even still, they tend to take Star Wars in silly directions and often reduce the great Star Wars series to the level of Star Trek.

Its a combinations of the sheer quantity of EU that is written, the fact that a lot of times the authors are limited in their narrative (a natural consequence when you have one hundred authors all competing in the same fictional universe) and a bunch of smaller miscellaneous things, like the fact that most of the EU writters just arent very good authors--again, this may be due to the above two facts, but it seems to me that EU often smacks of the same quality (and not surprising, the very same storylines) that you would find in POS fan fiction (hell sometimes even that is better). I guess one of the problems may be that the EU essentially boils down to the fact that its movie-merchandise.

It does anger me when people often argue the crappy EU notions with the same validity as the films, because the EU often carries the series into realms not really meant for Star Wars (i guess its just denial), but what can you expect? At least Lucas can acknowledge that the EU exists in its own seperate alternate universe from the films.

[Smiling Bandit]

I've found that the books dedicated to smaller, more personal realms are REAMS better than any of the other EU stuff. The book sbaout Han Solo, for example, are not too shabby (though occaissionally irritating). WHy? because they aren't aboiut Han Solo defeating another GIANT SUPERWEAPON or NEW EVIL EMPIRE like every fricking' other SW book. Focusing that small lets writers actual spread out more and do more with less. They can be free to make up more things and have fun without breaking the universe.

And ideally, they have nothing more than a mention of Jedi or "the Force".

[Super-Gagme]

EU wasn't THAT bad until NJO hit the shelves. I started reading it a bit but just started to get bored, now I can't even be bothered to get anymore and see how much worse it gets.

[Burak Gazan]

When some feathered twit of a former jedi started babbling about "there is no dark side" I stopped listening - and even bothering being interested in the outcome - of the entire NJO

Ooookaayy...... so Master Yoda spent his entire life talking out of his ass and not having a clue.
Forgive me if I find that somewhat offensive in the extreme

[Tribun]

Well, concerning the force thing. Canon says there are dark and light. NJO says that this isn't true. Conflict. Canon overrides NJO, so it is bullshit.

Who hates the NR? I think it is such a sorry excuse for a state, that Amidala would turn in her grave, if she knew what the Rebellion had produced.

Good that I don't have any EU books.....

[Stofsk]

The Thrawn books are good examples of the EU at work: exciting plot, cool and interesting characters, and a climax that doesn't suck (TLC). Even the duology is pretty good (though not at the same level), and it does a good job of showing just how fucked up the NR is when it comes to inter-faction squabbling.

I must admit I've never read any of the NJO. Can anyone recommend some of the books to read? Which were the best? Which are best avoided?

[zombie84]

Well, concerning the force thing. Canon says there are dark and light. NJO says that this isn't true. Conflict. Canon overrides NJO, so it is bullshit.

Technically, there isnt a conflict, since the force can be open to different "interpretations". Really it shouldnt even matter if theres a conflict, the EU has its own universe and the films have theres.

And for the record, i thought the Thrawn trilogy was kinda boring. Definitly one of the best overall story arcs, and it retained the star wars spirit better than most EU, but i still find it a little dull. I think Star Wars just isnt suited for literature, its a completly visual story.

[Falcon]

Just avoid anything after Zhan, honestly, its aweful. They've watered Star Wars down to the point that the galaxy is utterly pathetic. They killed off characters like Chewie (?!) for no good reason. The Force has been turned into a chance for the authors to propagandize about their own beliefs of non-violence. Stupid 'coral skippers' tossing 'plasma' and shielded with 'gravity well projections' are now the ultimate war technology. Dropping a moon on a planet is some kind of super weapon which brings out shock and horror in the characters (hello? Death Star? Sun Crusher? frigging ancient centerpoint station for crying out loud!).

*tries to regain calm*

The Unifying Force is the last straw in a horrible long line of books. I'm firing off angry letters and signing up to SW.com and TF.net forums.

[Darth Garden Gnome]

Frankly, Star Wars isn't much suited for anything other than 1977-1983. And video games, or at least X-Wing & TIE Fighter, plus the Rogue Squadron series.

Most of the EU is crap and the prequels are garbage (though visually breath-taking, for whatever that's worth); even the Special Editions sucked. As far as I'm concerned, Star Wars seemed fine beggining with A New Hope, and ending with Return of the Jedi.

[Super-Gagme]

The smaller stories of no galactic importance are where EU really shines. Star Wars is a vast universe where you can write about pretty much anything and yet everyone resorts to adjusting the galaxy epically and failing badly. Coporate Sector trilogy (is that the name?) was excellent reading, as was Han Solo trilogy (is that the name too? :p). I was very fond of I, Jedi. The small tales books are very well written as well. Some very fun stories of less importance.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

I'm sure this has been posted before, but I just got back from reading the latest in mind numbing rectal vomit (The Unified Force) put out under the banner of 'Star Wars' these days and felt like ranting. The Force, which had up until this point been largely left alone, has now been laid on the chopping block of political correct whitewashing. No longer is there such a thing as the 'dark side' and the 'light side.' Oh no, now the Force is One with everything; what the Jedi had mistakenly called the dark side (you know, where you get all genocidally midevil in your thrist for power?) is now simple the 'raw untamed' part of the force which is closely attuned with nature. Thats right, the Emperor was getting in touch with mother earth as he fried Luke like a KFC bucket.

Actually, I PREFER that view of Force interpretation. It neatly avoids the huge debates about exactly what actions constitute the Dark Side. Many things, such as money, can make a person quite maniacally evil in search of it. Yet nobody ever argues that Money has a Dark Side.

The Force is also now mainly useless except for preaching mindless philosophy to the reader and\or forming hive mind like communications al la Borg.

Hey, that's a useful role. I understand they increase combat efficiency that way. Improving combat efficiency is a role for the Force all the way back to Zahn.

Does it stop there though? Noooo, next the utterly rediculous organic technology theme is taken to the next level with an ORGANIC THINKING PLANET. This planet is supposedly the key to victory (apparently its the only thing that can stand up to organic ships) so Luke & Co. go off in search of it. Of course it has no weapons, being a pacafist planet, and it screws itself up if it has to unexpectedly jump into hyperspace(?!) but its still all big n bad(tm), or so we're to believe.

OK, that sounds dumb. But then, if you keep yourself from using any method that you had that would save yourself, then all you can do is hope for a savior, right?

The organic onslaught (by the Vong) has of course decimated the SW galaxy and its 'primitive' arsenal of planet busting superweapons which the ALLIANCE REFUSES TO BUILD OR USE. Their galaxy is being overrun, you'd think it might be prudent to build some Death Stars to turn the tide, but instead when they did get an efective weapon (a plauge, surprise surprise) the JEDI refused to let them use it (even going so far as to destroy it) because it was a genocidal weapon. I'm sorry, when exactly did the Jedi start interfearing with official Republic business?

They have great influence in the Old Republic (really, if you are a government official, would you dare go up against a demigod in direct conflict - he might kill you for "justice") as I understand it.

Since when did anyone in the SW universe have a problem using WMD (their ships are WMD for crying out loud). This isn't the best part though, get this, the Jedi (who no longer believe in light vs dark anymore) destroyed the germ because they feared that using it would push the alliance over to the dark side!

The Dark Side may no longer exist in the Force, but it still does within themselves. In fact, now that the Force is no longer responsible for it, the Jedi are probably turning into your actions. They always advocate restraint, at the cost of countless citizens for their worthless PRINCIPLES.

Guardian of the Galaxy? Or Fundamentalist Luddite? I'm not sure

The book can't even keep its own convaluted storyline correct within a few pages of itself. Apparently this fear arises due to the Vong which were apparently stripped of the Force (by some Force gods?) for being an evil race and misusing their mighty organic technology. This is the biggest load of crock I've ever seen. I can't believe Lucas let them do this to his universe.

Ugh...

[Falcon]

Actually, I PREFER that view of Force interpretation. It neatly avoids the huge debates about exactly what actions constitute the Dark Side. Many things, such as money, can make a person quite maniacally evil in search of it. Yet nobody ever argues that Money has a Dark Side.

Taking away the Dark Side still ruins the films, it also takes away the good vs evil aspect of Star Wars in favor of moden whitewash where there is no good or evil, its all relative, yadda yadda yadda

Are you talking about real life or in Star Wars? I can assure you, money is definately considered by many people to have a dark side.

Hey, that's a useful role. I understand they increase combat efficiency that way. Improving combat efficiency is a role for the Force all the way back to Zahn.

No, this isn't simple Jedi taking over a group of soldiers minds (note in the past its always been CLONES too). This is just them supposedly 'melding' their powers and using them for long range communication (much longer than anything established in cannon). That isn't my real gripe though, the Force has been substantially weakened. The Jedi reflexes are apparently not a function of precognition as indicated in the films, but instead the ability to sense what your opponent is doing. This opens up the big plot device of having each and every Vong warrior be a match for a Jedi. I'm sure theres stuff I've left out too.

OK, that sounds dumb. But then, if you keep yourself from using any method that you had that would save yourself, then all you can do is hope for a savior, right?

It isn't just dumb, it stretching the limits of credibility. They don't build superweapons or deploy their genocidal plagues. Instead they go searching for the ultimate in useless plot devices: thinking, peace loving, organic planet.

They have great influence in the Old Republic (really, if you are a government official, would you dare go up against a demigod in direct conflict - he might kill you for "justice") as I understand it.

Did you even watch AOTC? The Jedi calmly sat on the sidelines and waited for the Senate to make a decision before going out and enacting that policy. The Jedi are clearly established as protectors, advisors, but not as leaders. Remember Qui-Gon telling Padme that he could protect her but not fight a war for her?

The Dark Side may no longer exist in the Force, but it still does within themselves. In fact, now that the Force is no longer responsible for it, the Jedi are probably turning into your actions. They always advocate restraint, at the cost of countless citizens for their worthless PRINCIPLES.

Guardian of the Galaxy? Or Fundamentalist Luddite? I'm not sure

I'm not sure exactly what you're getting at here, but from what we've seen so far the Jedi have no problem with total war or with throwing away other lives just to save their own (Yoda losing troops for the express purpose of rescuing a few Jedi, Kenobi helping Luke blow up the Death Star with its million crew compliment). When exactly did we see the Jedi using less force than was needed to gain victory?

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

Taking away the Dark Side still ruins the films, it also takes away the good vs evil aspect of Star Wars in favor of moden whitewash where there is no good or evil, its all relative, yadda yadda yadda

Are you talking about real life or in Star Wars? I can assure you, money is definately considered by many people to have a dark side.

But the dark side isn't real in this case, it is psychological. Money in the hands of the worst criminal does not really look any different than in the hands of a saint.

But like the Force, in the attempt to get more, it is possible to be tempted to do evil things.

I think leaving it in the minds of people does nothing to take away good vs evil. In fact, by not blaming some evil spirit that you can be susceptible to (the Devil, anyone,) it makes each person even more responsible for his actions.

The Jedi reflexes are apparently not a function of precognition as indicated in the films, but instead the ability to sense what your opponent is doing. This opens up the big plot device of having each and every Vong warrior be a match for a Jedi. I'm sure theres stuff I've left out too.

If that's so, that sucks.

Did you even watch AOTC? The Jedi calmly sat on the sidelines and waited for the Senate to make a decision before going out and enacting that policy. The Jedi are clearly established as protectors, advisors, but not as leaders. Remember Qui-Gon telling Padme that he could protect her but not fight a war for her?

They were also used as diplomatic personnel, which suggests that everyone is supposed to fear and respect them to some extent.

I'm not trying to propose them as leaders. If they are really as leaders, that's a new one for Jedi to say the least. I thought they advised against it.

And if they took individual action to destroy the virus, hell, it doesn't take a Jedi to make a "pacifist humanitarian".

I'm not sure exactly what you're getting at here, but from what we've seen so far the Jedi have no problem with total war or with throwing away other lives just to save their own (Yoda losing troops for the express purpose of rescuing a few Jedi, Kenobi helping Luke blow up the Death Star with its million crew compliment). When exactly did we see the Jedi using less force than was needed to gain victory?

According to them, stopping an evil offensive weapon (Death Star) is worthy. But creating an evil offensive weapon is wrong. The overall idea of Jedi trying peace and minimal force is an old one (and killing is wrong) that dates back to the films (see Luke trying to bargain with evil Jabba, and even causing a crime lord's death is a "dark satisfaction" to Luke in the novel.)

Luke is probably also more phobic about the Dark Side than his Masters. He might be the Jedi Master of Masters now, but his training is not nearly as professional and throughout as in the days of the Old Republic, and he had nearly fallen to the Dark Side more than once. By the time of the NJO, he's probably shivering at the thought of anything approaching an offensive move. If you don't have the experience and training to fly terrain-skimming, you fly higher for safety.

[Falcon]

But the dark side isn't real in this case, it is psychological. Money in the hands of the worst criminal does not really look any different than in the hands of a saint.

You can measure both by their actions though. What does an evil doer do with his power or how did an evil doer get his money?

But like the Force, in the attempt to get more, it is possible to be tempted to do evil things.

I think leaving it in the minds of people does nothing to take away good vs evil. In fact, by not blaming some evil spirit that you can be susceptible to (the Devil, anyone,) it makes each person even more responsible for his actions.

What makes you think that the Dark Side is some evil spirit? It has been repeatedly mentioned in the movies that one has to choose to go over to the dark side. A little grimlin doesn't drag you kicking and screaming!

They were also used as diplomatic personnel, which suggests that everyone is supposed to fear and respect them to some extent.

Well I'd call them more of an elite police\investigation force as well as diplomats, but the fact remains that they carry out policy but don't create it.
No politician has to worry about a Jedi coming after him if he votes the wrong way.

And if they took individual action to destroy the virus, hell, it doesn't take a Jedi to make a "pacifist humanitarian".

I didn't explain this well enough. One Jedi did it, but later all the Jedi agreed. Luke was even willing to make massive concessions (and ones which might have dire implications for the future status of galactic ownership) in order to have 'peace'

According to them, stopping an evil offensive weapon (Death Star) is worthy. But creating an evil offensive weapon is wrong. The overall idea of Jedi trying peace and minimal force is an old one (and killing is wrong) that dates back to the films (see Luke trying to bargain with evil Jabba, and even causing a crime lord's death is a "dark satisfaction" to Luke in the novel.)

We've seen no cannon evidence that the Jedi are squimish about using superweapons or genocidal tactics when required though. Luke obviously wanted to bargin with Jabba because it would have been much more simple to buy his way out of that situation. Having to do it the way he did left open a very real possibility that he or his friends could have been killed. The Jedi might not take delight in death, but they don't shy away from dishing it out, and they have a fearsome reputation for doing it too. Remember in first few minutes of TPM when one of the Nimodeons(sp?) intoned darkly that 'we won't survive this'

Luke is probably also more phobic about the Dark Side than his Masters. He might be the Jedi Master of Masters now, but his training is not nearly as professional and throughout as in the days of the Old Republic, and he had nearly fallen to the Dark Side more than once. By the time of the NJO, he's probably shivering at the thought of anything approaching an offensive move. If you don't have the experience and training to fly terrain-skimming, you fly higher for safety.

The only problem is that Luke wasn't being asked to personally do anything aggressive. He was merely being asked to go along with the military decisions of the Alliance.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

You can measure both by their actions though. What does an evil doer do with his power or how did an evil doer get his money?

Precisely, but the Force or money by itself has no good and bad sides, unlike what Yoda seems to imply.

What makes you think that the Dark Side is some evil spirit? It has been repeatedly mentioned in the movies that one has to choose to go over to the dark side. A little grimlin doesn't drag you kicking and screaming!

The important thing is that Yoda seems to explain it as something that actually exists, rather than created by yourself out of something with no sides. And while the supposed Dark Side is something You have to choose to some extent, but like the stereotypical devil, it tempts you with its benefits.

Well I'd call them more of an elite police\investigation force as well as diplomats, but the fact remains that they carry out policy but don't create it.
No politician has to worry about a Jedi coming after him if he votes the wrong way.

In theory. But people ARE influenced by religious characters, even when they don't have real powers. Jedi DO have real powers that back up their "religion."

I didn't explain this well enough. One Jedi did it, but later all the Jedi agreed. Luke was even willing to make massive concessions (and ones which might have dire implications for the future status of galactic ownership) in order to have 'peace'

Pacifists in general are willing to make huge sacrifices for peace. For the record, I'm curious, what "massive concessions."

We've seen no cannon evidence that the Jedi are squimish about using superweapons or genocidal tactics when required though. Luke obviously wanted to bargin with Jabba because it would have been much more simple to buy his way out of that situation. Having to do it the way he did left open a very real possibility that he or his friends could have been killed. The Jedi might not take delight in death, but they don't shy away from dishing it out, and they have a fearsome reputation for doing it too. Remember in first few minutes of TPM when one of the Nimodeons(sp?) intoned darkly that 'we won't survive this'

Yes, but when Jabba didn't want to bargain, and he decided to kill Jabba, it was STILL described as Dark.

The only problem is that Luke wasn't being asked to personally do anything aggressive. He was merely being asked to go along with the military decisions of the Alliance.

In typical Rebel (not just Jedi) thinking, not doing anything to stop evil (or what you perceive as evil) is Evil in ITSELF. In their minds, Apathy is NOT a true option.

[Falcon]

Precisely, but the Force or money by itself has no good and bad sides, unlike what Yoda seems to imply.

The dark side has identifiable physical side effects and specific powers (like force lightening). Plus its cannon and that trumps books

The important thing is that Yoda seems to explain it as something that actually exists, rather than created by yourself out of something with no sides. And while the supposed Dark Side is something You have to choose to some extent, but like the stereotypical devil, it tempts you with its benefits.

I think you're reading too much into what Yoda said. A more apt explaination might be that the dark side is a highly addictive aspect of the force. Once 'hooked' you engage in irrational behavior as you seek to use more and more of it to get your 'high'

In theory. But people ARE influenced by religious characters, even when they don't have real powers. Jedi DO have real powers that back up their "religion."

They might influence decisions with advice, but in the end the power to govern isn't theirs.

Pacifists in general are willing to make huge sacrifices for peace. For the record, I'm curious, what "massive concessions."

He indicated a willingless to let the Vong have whatever they'd already taken, including Coruscant. What makes him think that after they've rebuilt they won't take the rest of the galaxy and wipe out all the original inhabitants as per their STATED INTENTIONS. That really bugs me.

Yes, but when Jabba didn't want to bargain, and he decided to kill Jabba, it was STILL described as Dark.

I must admit I don't remember that being in the book. It doesn't fit very well with the actions we've seen throughout the movies.

In typical Rebel (not just Jedi) thinking, not doing anything to stop evil (or what you perceive as evil) is Evil in ITSELF. In their minds, Apathy is NOT a true option.

So you're telling me that in the 25,000 years of the Old Republic the government never took an action which the Jedi had to uphold which some of them might have disagreed with? This stretches credibility quite a bit.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

The dark side has identifiable physical side effects and specific powers (like force lightening). Plus its cannon and that trumps books

It can be interpreted such that it is the way you happened to have used the Force. If you put a piece of highly radioactive fallout onto your lap, you soon won't look so good, but the radiation itself is not Dark or Evil. There are many applications for specific things. The fact you could deflect it with the supposed Light Side suggests they are in fact both of the same fundamental substance.

I think you're reading too much into what Yoda said. A more apt explaination might be that the dark side is a highly addictive aspect of the force. Once 'hooked' you engage in irrational behavior as you seek to use more and more of it to get your 'high'

Well, and it is possible the "addiction" you referred to is one of the Psychological kind rather than Pharmacological.

He indicated a willingless to let the Vong have whatever they'd already taken, including Coruscant. What makes him think that after they've rebuilt they won't take the rest of the galaxy and wipe out all the original inhabitants as per their STATED INTENTIONS. That really bugs me.

That's typical appeasement policy, not just Jedi.

Seriously, forget what I said in the last posts. Luke sucks.

I must admit I don't remember that being in the book. It doesn't fit very well with the actions we've seen throughout the movies.

Try P.37, top half. If you have a different version of the book, try Chapter 2 and search for "ever-so-slightly dark satisfaction."

So you're telling me that in the 25,000 years of the Old Republic the government never took an action which the Jedi had to uphold which some of them might have disagreed with? This stretches credibility quite a bit.

For all we know, that COULD have been the case. The Jedi religion is too strong. Nobody dares to tell the Priests (Jedi) to do something genuinely evil.

[Falcon]

It can be interpreted such that it is the way you happened to have used the Force. If you put a piece of highly radioactive fallout onto your lap, you soon won't look so good, but the radiation itself is not Dark or Evil. There are many applications for specific things. The fact you could deflect it with the supposed Light Side suggests they are in fact both of the same fundamental substance.

You could do that, but its a baseless assumption you've dreamed up to fit your premise that there is no dark side...

Well, and it is possible the "addiction" you referred to is one of the Psychological kind rather than Pharmacological.

It was just an example which fits what we've seen onscreen. Not conclusive by any means.

That's typical appeasement policy, not just Jedi.

Seriously, forget what I said in the last posts. Luke sucks.

Ya, its really poor

Try P.37, top half. If you have a different version of the book, try Chapter 2 and search for "ever-so-slightly dark satisfaction."

I don't have a book so I'll take your word for it. However from that passage it seems likely that it is the feeling of satisfaction which is dark, not the act itself.

For all we know, that COULD have been the case. The Jedi religion is too strong. Nobody dares to tell the Priests (Jedi) to do something genuinely evil.

You didn't limit it just to the Jedi having to do something they'd consider evil. You said that the Jedi would have to actively seek to prevent anything they thought of as evil. I think its realistically impossible that a politically body like the Senate could for 25,000 years keep from doing something the Jedi would have seen as evil.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

You could do that, but its a baseless assumption you've dreamed up to fit your premise that there is no dark side...

It is impossible to prove a negative. A theory with one term less is generlalys superior.

I don't have a book so I'll take your word for it. However from that passage it seems likely that it is the feeling of satisfaction which is dark, not the act itself.

If it was genuinely a good act, feeling satisfied for it shouldn't be "Dark." I find it very unlikely that the satisfaction for doing something unequivocally good (like saving someone with the Force) would be Dark.

You didn't limit it just to the Jedi having to do something they'd consider evil. You said that the Jedi would have to actively seek to prevent anything they thought of as evil. I think its realistically impossible that a politically body like the Senate could for 25,000 years keep from doing something the Jedi would have seen as evil.

I bet they immediately volunteered their own services to solve the crisis. Also, I pointed out about two posts ago it was Rebel (and Luke is a Rebel) thinking. There IS also a chance the OR practices looser standards. You will notice Yoda and Obi-Wan were considerably less enthusiastic than Luke to stop trouble in the Rebellion era.

[Falcon]

If it was genuinely a good act, feeling satisfied for it shouldn't be "Dark." I find it very unlikely that the satisfaction for doing something unequivocally good (like saving someone with the Force) would be Dark.

Sometimes killing is necessary, but when you start taking satisfaction from it most people consider that crossing a line. Thats just supposition speaking on my part though.

I bet they immediately volunteered their own services to solve the crisis. Also, I pointed out about two posts ago it was Rebel (and Luke is a Rebel) thinking. There IS also a chance the OR practices looser standards. You will notice Yoda and Obi-Wan were considerably less enthusiastic than Luke to stop trouble in the Rebellion era.

Yoda and Obi-Wan seemed to believe that there was something special about Luke and Leia which would allow them to succeed where they would have failed. This was proved true; If it had been Yoda or Obi-Wan being tortured in the Death Star chamber instead of Luke then Vader would not have been moved to kill the Emperor.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

Yoda and Obi-Wan seemed to believe that there was something special about Luke and Leia which would allow them to succeed where they would have failed. This was proved true; If it had been Yoda or Obi-Wan being tortured in the Death Star chamber instead of Luke then Vader would not have been moved to kill the Emperor.

Even if that is so, one finds it hard to believe they could have done nothing themselves. Even the PRESENCE of extra long-lost Jedi would hardly be anything but a boost to Alliance morale.

[Kitsune]

The Thrawn books are good examples of the EU at work: exciting plot, cool and interesting characters, and a climax that doesn't suck (TLC). Even the duology is pretty good (though not at the same level), and it does a good job of showing just how fucked up the NR is when it comes to inter-faction squabbling.

I must admit I've never read any of the NJO. Can anyone recommend some of the books to read? Which were the best? Which are best avoided?

I stopped after the X-wing series....the Thrawn series was ok in my opinion but not great...Zahn still seems to love the "Super Weapon" just too much. No super, in the sense of something like the deathstar, but high tech solutions to tactical / strategic problems. Truce at Bakura was not very good either although better than Anderson's books.