America pulling out of Germany

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2004-01-10 02:16am

And so the retarded idea of a 'light reaction force' will actually go ahead.

Post by **Vympel** » 2004-01-10 02:26am

There should be zero US bases in Europe whatsoever- they're a waste of space and a waste of money, irrelevant throwback that they are. Most of the tanks sitting there should be scrapped, especially- the US can't even afford to maintain the 8,000 M1s that they have, they'll never be able to use that many all at once. Free up more money for other military items. Not to mention the Iraq deployment is wreaking havoc with maintenance already.

The Cleric · Post by **The Cleric** » 2004-01-10 02:33am

We should scrap most of the military bases around the world. Invest in Tomahawks instead.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2004-01-10 02:50am

SirNitram wrote:And so the retarded idea of a 'light reaction force' will actually go ahead.

FCS is a teniable concept, and the premise especially is correct.

Forget not that the light/FCS forces will be supplanted by heavy armor like the M1A2 in extended deployments.

Post by **Vympel** » 2004-01-10 03:15am

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Forget not that the light/FCS forces will be supplanted by heavy armor like the M1A2 in extended deployments.

You may be confusing the SBCT with the FCS- though the Stryker Brigades aren't meant to supplant the 'legacy' forces- there are no plans for a new US MBT or IFV, and the M1 is expected to be gone by around 2020- the FCS will be the new face of the US military. I don't like the concept personally- there are still plenty of low-tech things that can kill you- merely giving up on thick armor because you can't stop the best of the best seems like foolishness.

Iceberg · Post by **Iceberg** » 2004-01-10 03:46am

After sixty years we finally pull out! She must be very tired!

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2004-01-10 05:01am

Vympel wrote:There should be zero US bases in Europe whatsoever- they're a waste of space and a waste of money, irrelevant throwback that they are. Most of the tanks sitting there should be scrapped, especially- the US can't even afford to maintain the 8,000 M1s that they have, they'll never be able to use that many all at once. Free up more money for other military items. Not to mention the Iraq deployment is wreaking havoc with maintenance already.

What, you don't see the value in maintaining three complete armored division equipment sets in storage in Europe? ...I hate to think how much money's been spent turning over the engine of all those thousands of vehicles for the past decade.

Anyway, this pullback is longer overdue; Clinton would have gone through with it if he hadn't found a way to waste money and troops in the Balkans... hmm, those pointless escapades also lead to Stryker. *Adds to list of reasons to hate Clinton*

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » 2004-01-10 05:06am

Sea Skimmer wrote:Anyway, this pullback is longer overdue; Clinton would have gone through with it if he hadn't found a way to waste money and troops in the Balkans... hmm, those pointless escapades also lead to Stryker. *Adds to list of reasons to hate Clinton*

What was wrong with the operations in the Balkans? What did Clinton do wrong?

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2004-01-10 05:21am

Stofsk wrote: What was wrong with the operations in the Balkans? What did Clinton do wrong?

Get involved. Bosnia was pointless; the Italian air force could have handled the air campaign single handedly, hell Austria probably could have. The follow-up occupation succeed in keeping several US divisions busy at a time of tight budgets (several programs, most notably the XM-8 AGS, where canacled to pay for the whole thing, since Clinton refused to ask Congress for more money). Then we have Kosvo, in which the free world united to kill hundreds of civilians to protect a band of rebels described by the US state department as terrorists, and in the process severely delayed efforts to peacefully topple Milosevic. What a glorious set of accomplishments.

Sarevok · Post by **Sarevok** » 2004-01-10 05:47am

Milosevic was a bad guy like Saddam so whats wrong with toppling him by force ?

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » 2004-01-10 06:07am

Sea Skimmer wrote:(several programs, most notably the XM-8 AGS, where canacled to pay for the whole thing, since Clinton refused to ask Congress for more money)

What is that?

Sarevok · Post by **Sarevok** » 2004-01-10 07:12am

The M8 armoured gun system. It was designed to combine a tanks firepower with a highly mobile, air-droppable vehicle.

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2004-01-10 08:53am

Sea Skimmer wrote:What a glorious set of accomplishments.

[liberal]Shush you! Off to the anti war protests where we must protest
Bush's warmongerism! If Clinton was in office this wouldn't have happened![/liberal]

The Kernel · Post by **The Kernel** » 2004-01-10 09:02am

MKSheppard wrote:
Sea Skimmer wrote:What a glorious set of accomplishments.
[liberal]Shush you! Off to the anti war protests where we must protest
Bush's warmongerism! If Clinton was in office this wouldn't have happened![/liberal]

If Clinton was in office, I would have hoped he would have been straightforward about his reasons for starting the war (you know, like he was with Kosovo) rather than LIE TO THE AMERICAN PEOPLE.

Get a fucking clue, there is no real difference between Kosovo and Iraq. Both were zero threat to the United States, and both actions can be justified (on the condition of unilateral action) as an attempt to remove a dictator that was killing his own people.

Sea Skimmer, did you ever consider that the reason Clinton didn't go to Congress for more money was because he knew he wouldn't get it considering the majority was against him and on a witch hunt over his personal life at the time? Why should he have expected congressional approval for more funds? Heck, they turned him down for greater anti-terrorist funding as well (then conveniently blamed 9/11 on him).

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2004-01-10 09:03am

The Kernel wrote: If Clinton was in office, I would have hoped he would have been straightforward about his reasons for starting the war (you know, like he was with Kosovo) rather than LIE TO THE AMERICAN PEOPLE.

But he did! He claimed there were mass graves in Kosovo....but we have yet
to find them! Just neatly marked graves!

The Kernel · Post by **The Kernel** » 2004-01-10 09:09am

MKSheppard wrote: But he did! He claimed there were mass graves in Kosovo....but we have yet
to find them! Just neatly marked graves!

Are you debating that there was mass killing going on during Milosevic's reign?

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2004-01-10 09:15am

The Kernel wrote: Are you debating that there was mass killing going on during Milosevic's reign?

We went to war because Klintoon claimed that Milosevik was RIGHT NOW
oppressing the poor Kosovars, and burying them in mass graves, and when
we arrived, and began checking the place post-war, we found other than
M-36 Jackson tank destroyers blown apart by US JDAMs after being mistaken
for T-72s

, lots of neatly marked graves, but no mass graves.

The Kernel · Post by **The Kernel** » 2004-01-10 09:20am

MKSheppard wrote: We went to war because Klintoon claimed that Milosevik was RIGHT NOW
oppressing the poor Kosovars, and burying them in mass graves, and when
we arrived, and began checking the place post-war, we found other than
M-36 Jackson tank destroyers blown apart by US JDAMs after being mistaken
for T-72s , lots of neatly marked graves, but no mass graves.

You still haven't answered my question. Are you denying that during the time Milosevic was in power that he killed on the order of 200,000 civilians and displaced millions more in the space of a decade? Who gives a fuck how the graves were laid out, hundreds of thousands of people were killed during a reign of terror designed to force a specific ethnic group out of the country (hence the ethnic cleansing bit).

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2004-01-10 09:30am

The Kernel wrote: Who gives a fuck how the graves were laid out, hundreds of thousands of people were killed during a reign of terror designed to force a specific ethnic group out of the country (hence the ethnic cleansing bit).

Ah good, so the United States by your definition is enaging in
ethnic cleansing, trying to force a specific ethnic group out of
Iraq?

The Kernel · Post by **The Kernel** » 2004-01-10 09:34am

Sheppard, stop evading and answer the fucking question. Do you deny that the there were mass amounts of murder and rape going on against the civilian population in Bosnia?

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2004-01-10 09:37am

The Kernel wrote:Sheppard, stop evading and answer the fucking question. Do you deny that the there were mass amounts of murder and rape going on against the civilian population in Bosnia?

Except that isn't the issue, the issue is the 1999 Kosovo War, not the
whatever the fuck the miscelanneous Bosnian wars were.

The Kernel · Post by **The Kernel** » 2004-01-10 09:42am

MKSheppard wrote: Except that isn't the issue, the issue is the 1999 Kosovo War, not the
whatever the fuck the miscelanneous Bosnian wars were.

Typo, I meant Kosovo. Besides, the worst human rights violations of all the Balkan conflicts occured in Kosovo against the Albanians.

As for not finding mass grave sites, what the hell do you call this?

The Kernel · Post by **The Kernel** » 2004-01-10 09:47am

Here's a few more on the mass grave sites.

Here

Here

and Here

salm · Post by **salm** » 2004-01-10 12:15pm

hmm... too bad, they were a nice economical factor. the GIs spent a shit load of tax dollars in german shops and bars.