The crimes of KJA

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Post by PainRack »

Darth Garden Gnome wrote:
Kazuaki Shimazaki wrote:Sickbed? That's a realistic ending.
I wanna stop you right there. This is Star Wars, not real life. Star Wars isn't supposed to be realistic; it's supposed to be fantastic and far flung. With heroes and heroics abound (in case you missed ANH Luke SINGLE-HANDEDLY killed the Death Star, now that's Star Wars). Heroes in fantasy are supposed to die making a difference, not snoozing. Especially a hero like Admiral Ackbar.
No. Arragorn died on his sickbed. Merlin died trapped in a tree. Robin Hood didn't make a difference with his death. King Arthur was murdered by ruffians IIRC.



There're lots of way to make a character die in fantasy, and not all of them need to be vainglorious. Whatever pushes the story forward, works. Ackbar death was fine the way it was. Dying peacefully is a good ending for someone who dedicated his life to peace.
Anakin death was.......... a plot-twister that IMO just wasn't developed properly as it was scattered across too many story tangents.
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Post by Crazedwraith »

PainRack wrote:No. Arragorn died on his sickbed. Merlin died trapped in a tree. Robin Hood didn't make a difference with his death. King Arthur was murdered by ruffians IIRC.
.
:wtf: Merlin was trappped in a cave and King Arthur was killed in gloroius battle taking back is country from his rebel nephew Mrodred.
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Post by Illuminatus Primus »

You mean his son? And yeah, Arthur was killed in a tragic battle where both he and Mordred killed each other.
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Post by Spanky The Dolphin »

Aragorn died of natural causes (old age) about forty years after the War of the Ring. It wasn't part of the main story text, put in the Appendicies, so it doesn't count.
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Post by JME2 »

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:Aragorn died of natural causes (old age) about forty years after the War of the Ring. It wasn't part of the main story text, put in the Appendicies, so it doesn't count.
It only counts to the extreme hardcore-fans...
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Post by Crazedwraith »

Illuminatus Primus wrote:You mean his son? And yeah, Arthur was killed in a tragic battle where both he and Mordred killed each other.
In most versons of the legend i've read Mordred is either un related of his newphew. I can't remember a version in which mordred was his son.
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Post by Stormbringer »

Defiant wrote:
Stormbringer wrote:I'm not so sure how badly he screwed up continuity, some of the basic plot seems reasonable. But there's no question that the Dune prequels are horribly, horribly written.
Hows this for continuity. In House Atreides, the Harkonnens are said to have created a device that doesn't even appear until God Emperor, which took place thousands of years later.
Oh, I'm not saying there werent' continuity violations. There were, definitely so. But even that's relatively minor.
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Post by Techno_Union »

do you guys still find Timothy Zhan a good writer?
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Post by jakez0r »

You know, I liked reading the Dune prequels :oops:

I'm just one of those people who loves reading about the official books of the Star Wars universe, and it doesn't matter how crappy the author is. But i'll grant that his stories suck compared to other authors like Timothy Zahn :D
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Post by Master of Ossus »

Techno_Union wrote:do you guys still find Timothy Zhan a good writer?
In short, yeah I do. He isn't a perfect writer by any stretch of the imagination, but he writes good books. Thrawn and Mara are CLEARLY the best characters developed in the EU, his plots are okay (even if they sometimes have faults), and he writes pretty well. I think, on balance, Troy Denning is a better author word-for-word, but Zahn created stronger plots and arguably stronger characters.
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Post by Connor MacLeod »

Myself, I like Troy Denning better than Zahn, although Zahn is still one of the better ones out there (I just wish he'd stop collaborating with Stackpole.)

I like certain aspects of KJA - Unlike Ossus, I don't think he mauled SW technology *that* badly - I give him credit for noting that an Executor-class has thousands of TIE fighters (Darksaber) and that ISDs can slag planets - and he isn't shy about "high end" Force abilities - but he's also right in that KJA doesn't capture the characters very well, and his plots are just bland (I'm sort of mixed about Madine's death - the fact he died without accomplishing his mission does not neccesarily bother me, but as Ossus again correctly notes, he was portrayed in such a bumbling fashion that its really pathetic.) He's certainly not one of my *favorite* Star Wars authors, but he's also more readily maligned than certain authors who are just as worse, if not moreso:

Vonda McIntyre who wrote "The Crystal Star"

The lady who wrote "Children of the Jedi" and "Planet of Twilight"

Mike Stackpole - For both his Character-shielding of Corran "I'm not really dead" Horn (although no worse than KJA with Kyp Durron), and certain unforgivable technical mistkaes ("kilojoule range" lasers - I shit you not - and the fact that a truck moving at 60 km/hr can take down an X-wing's shields.)
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Post by Connor MacLeod »

Ossus, have you read Star by Star or Tattooine Ghost? What did you think of them?
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Post by Kazuaki Shimazaki »

Connor MacLeod wrote:Myself, I like Troy Denning better than Zahn, although Zahn is still one of the better ones out there (I just wish he'd stop collaborating with Stackpole.)
Never read her work. What did she write?

It's great that he thinks an Executor has thousands of fighters, but because he hasn't corrected the length error, it seems to most people (including me) like he is sloppy - he not only doesn't bother to check things in the film (which would have been a great plus for him,) but he won't even check WEG and just writes any damned thing he likes.

The existence of the Shockwave, a ship larger than the average ISD was a plus for him, I'd admit. Very few authors dare to do something like that.

The "ISD can slag planet" part? The only part I can remember is them actually hitting a planet and causing forest fires, causing us great grief from Trekkies!

Some people actually like Stackpole, which is more than can be said for KJA. I don't like Stackpole too. I recently read a review that went said Stackpole writes fighter battles better than Allston and that Allston's Wraith Squadron was superficial while Rogue Squadron was supposedly deep or some shit.

BTW, There are a couple of technical points going for Stackpole as well. Such as "sensor domes," something that will appear to any "Saxtonite."

My only response to that review is that Stackpole pretty much only writes fighter-wank battles (I'm sure it is easier to write dogfights when all you have IS the dogfight,) while Allston writes more combined arms battles (as can be seen in Solo Command.) If Wraith Squadron is shallow, then at least I remember each of them and what they are like, which is a hell of a lot more than I could say of the Rogues (I pretty much only remember's Allston's rendition of Wedge, Tycho, Janson and Hobbie.)
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Post by FTeik »

Compared to the amount of stuff KJA (sometimes alone, sometimes with company) was allowed to write and which had lasting effects on the EU the damage done by McIntire and Hambley is insignificant.

Stackpole i don´t like for

-his fighter-wankfests (i´ll never forgive him for what he did to the capital ships),

-Corran and every other supposed to be important charakter staying alive,

-his minimalism (a strategically important position like Borleias, the door to Coruscant is guarded by a few Ion-Cannons and 2 squadrons of TIEs when every ordinary garrison has at least fourty of those).

I´m sure there is more, but i haven´t read the X-Wing-novels in a while.
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Post by PainRack »

So, lets sum up.


1. Lousy characters. All one dimensional, with no depth, no character development or progression. Like Kyp, we are "told" what happens, we don't feel connected at all to his progression from slave, to Jedi trainee and to Sith.

2. Lousy story. I like to add a point here. KJA has the tendency to create even more grander story arcs than the universe he sets them in.Be it X-files, Dune or Star wars, this has been a common feature. The problem lies not in whether he can do that, its the pathetic resolution and development of the story, that ultimately forces the reader to dilute the orginal magic and experience to cover this diatribete that weakens the franchise. JAT was an extremely grand story arc. The setting up of the Jedi Knights, a new hero was found and turned to evil and finally redeemed.

3. KJA universe. I read his other science fiction books. Its not that bad. HOWEVER, they weren't bestsellers. So, with the infinite ego that has led him to declare himself the Chancellor of Star Wars, he now regularly abuses other franchises. when you read those stories, you will not realise it for their respective universes. Scully is not Scully, Leto is not Leto and Luke is definitely not Luke. Its is this disrespect for the story universe mechanics and background that to me, is the reason why so many core fans hate him.
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Post by Sir Sirius »

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:Aragorn died of natural causes (old age) about forty years after the War of the Ring. It wasn't part of the main story text, put in the Appendicies, so it doesn't count.
How did you come by that number? The War of the Ring ended in the year 3019 of the Third age, Aragorn died in the year 120 of the Fourth Age, almost 123 years after the War of the Ring had ended.
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Post by PainRack »

Crazedwraith wrote:
PainRack wrote:No. Arragorn died on his sickbed. Merlin died trapped in a tree. Robin Hood didn't make a difference with his death. King Arthur was murdered by ruffians IIRC.
.
:wtf: Merlin was trappped in a cave and King Arthur was killed in gloroius battle taking back is country from his rebel nephew Mrodred.
Tree, cave, almost the same thing :wink:

As for King Arthur, in one version, they were taking his injured self back to Avalon. He died in mid journey by a band of ruffians.
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Post by Master of Ossus »

Connor MacLeod wrote:Ossus, have you read Star by Star or Tattooine Ghost? What did you think of them?
I think SbS is the best SW novel ever. That includes Tim Zahn novels. I still think Zahn has a slight edge overall, just because he's done more books that have been consistently good, but the fact that Denning was able to write such a work within the NJO is very impressive. Tatooine Ghost wasn't as strong--I'd have to say that on balance I prefer works like HttE and TLC, but it's certainly one of the top echelon SW novels and it was definitely worth my $20.
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Post by Master of Ossus »

I would have to say that Stackpole has written some very good works, but his consistency is atrocious. The first two X-Wing novels were horrible. The third X-Wing novel was really good. Then his next book tailed off, again. I, Jedi was a crime against literature. I know that everyone and their grandmas loved that book, but I thought it was one of the worst things I've ever read. When he got around to writing in the NJO, Onslaught was a great book, but Ruin was sub-par, and very disappointing because I was hoping for a good conclusion to the series. His biggest problem is that his works are SOOO rushed. HE takes practically no time on his novels, and it shows more often than not in the finished product. I really don't like Corran Horn, and I think it's pretty clear that Stackpole can only write Corran Horn books (and, actually, other writers--most notably Troy Denning--have made Corran a more interesting character than Stackpole did), I also think he's pulled off some okay works with that character.
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Post by Ender »

Mordred was the son of Arthur and Morgana le Fey, Arthur's half sister, and he was brother to Gwaine and the other 3.

Zahn writes books you can't put down, but gets the scale wrong.
Allston writes books you can't put down, but messes up technical details.
Denning writes books you can't put down and gets the scale and tech dead on.
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Post by Lord Pounder »

Most of my gripes about KJA have already been aired. What annoys me most is his lack of imagination and originality. He has came up with 2 or 3 ideas and them keep appearing over and over and over. As mentioned his infatuation with the words Knight and Night, his idea about dis-embodied brains and unneccessary killing of important characters. The dumb cunt killed Piter de Vrites in a prequal to Dune just for shits and giggles
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Post by The Kernel »

A lot of people complain that Zhan never got the Star Wars Universe exactly right (remember though that the EU was pretty slim when he first started writing) but it doesn't change the fact that he added more to the EU then all the other authors combined.

Think about the characters he created: Karde, Mara, Thrawn, Pelleon as well as a boatload of supporting characters. His plots set the tone for a good chunk of the rest of the EU (all the way up to the NJO books) and although he may have gotten a few facts wrong, he showed the most respect and truism for the characters and the material created by the movies.
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Post by Lord Pounder »

The fact of the matter is that it was Zahn that brought the EU to where it is now. His books, while incorrect about many things, captured the atmosphere of the OT in a way no other EU book has IMHO.
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Post by Connor MacLeod »

Master of Ossus wrote:
Connor MacLeod wrote:Ossus, have you read Star by Star or Tattooine Ghost? What did you think of them?
I think SbS is the best SW novel ever. That includes Tim Zahn novels. I still think Zahn has a slight edge overall, just because he's done more books that have been consistently good, but the fact that Denning was able to write such a work within the NJO is very impressive. Tatooine Ghost wasn't as strong--I'd have to say that on balance I prefer works like HttE and TLC, but it's certainly one of the top echelon SW novels and it was definitely worth my $20.
I rather liked Tattooine Ghost. Especially the bit about the projectile weapons bouncing off stormtrooper armor :P
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Post by Connor MacLeod »

Kazuaki Shimazaki wrote: Never read her work. What did she write?
He. He wrote Star by Star and Tattooine Ghost (So far - he's apparently writing others, so it seems like he is becoming one of the more prolific writers in Star Wars much as Zahn is.). Star by Star is best known for both the death of Anakin Solo as well as the first feature of relatavistically-travleing Star Wars fighters :P
It's great that he thinks an Executor has thousands of fighters, but because he hasn't corrected the length error, it seems to most people (including me) like he is sloppy - he not only doesn't bother to check things in the film (which would have been a great plus for him,) but he won't even check WEG and just writes any damned thing he likes.
Why should he be singled out as any worse than others? The other EU writers have made that same mistake as well - in fact Stackpole made it worse by initially indicating that the Lusankya was 10x the size of a Star Destroyer, but later reversing this by reiterating the 8 kilometer figure in "Isard's Revenge!" And there are others just as guilty also, like Kube-Mcdowell and the Intimidator (who can be credited with the "Executor-class" invention.)

But unlike others (like Stackpole, who reiterated the 144 "fighter" complement for the Lusankya), I can at least credit KJA with giving an Executor-class a realistic fighter complement, even if he is an inept writer.
The existence of the Shockwave, a ship larger than the average ISD was a plus for him, I'd admit. Very few authors dare to do something like that.
The durability of stormtrooper armor (and the later mention of invulnerability against projectile weapons) also comes from KJA books - the Young Jedi Knight series, in fact :P It predates the VD's too I believe.
The "ISD can slag planet" part? The only part I can remember is them actually hitting a planet and causing forest fires, causing us great grief from Trekkies!
That was an inappropriate interpretation Darksaber references involving the assault by Victory class ships who were ordered to "cause confusion" (ie hit and run attacks rather than methodical, destructive bombardments) - or an Executor-class that is firing on temples whose stone is canonically "excecptionally dense stone" that is also stated to be resistant/immune to most capital grade weaponry (at least theoretically) in the ANH novelization. And that ignores the fact Daala *also* intended to occupy the planet (even if temporarily) - which is why ground forces were landed (and why full power blasts weren't employed.)

What I am referring to is Daala's original four Star Destroyers. In Jedi Search and Dark Apprentice, KJA mentions that Daala's Star Destroyers have the firepower to turn whole planets into slag (more or less.) Much like, say, Dankayo.
Some people actually like Stackpole, which is more than can be said for KJA. I don't like Stackpole too. I recently read a review that went said Stackpole writes fighter battles better than Allston and that Allston's Wraith Squadron was superficial while Rogue Squadron was supposedly deep or some shit.
You're kidding, right? Stackpole basically adopted the X-wing games into a novel format (he even credits the designers of the X-wing game in the first book!) I kind of like the early "Rogue Squadron" comics better (mostly because it was not "all Corran, all the time") than the novels, but the early novels were just plain *BAD*.

Some of Allston's earlier stuff suffers from following Stackpole';s example with fighter to fighter combat, although he was better at capital ship battles than fighter battles (the latter maintaining the "Xwing" model.) Allston also presented much more interesting and IMHO realistic characters - people with flaws, with humor ("Yub Yub, Commander."). He doesn't focus on just one guy and developing him to death - and he will actually *kill* heroes (He kills at least what - four people in the first book, and at least two more in the second.) Overall, Allston's characterization is FAR superior to stackpole's. And his technical accuracy got better- hte Rebel Dream/Rebel Stand duology was in fact one of the more sterling examples of NJO novels. :)
BTW, There are a couple of technical points going for Stackpole as well. Such as "sensor domes," something that will appear to any "Saxtonite."
And shield domes. Although to be fair that also goes against Allston as well (though he has to be credited for the way he handled taking down Executor-class shields.) You also have to hold the "Rogue Squadron taking down big ships" mentality against Stackpole more than with Allston (Allston at least understands the concept of big-ship participation in battles along with fighters.)
My only response to that review is that Stackpole pretty much only writes fighter-wank battles (I'm sure it is easier to write dogfights when all you have IS the dogfight,) while Allston writes more combined arms battles (as can be seen in Solo Command.) If Wraith Squadron is shallow, then at least I remember each of them and what they are like, which is a hell of a lot more than I could say of the Rogues (I pretty much only remember's Allston's rendition of Wedge, Tycho, Janson and Hobbie.)
And Corran. Corran is a virtual neo-messaianic character in his novels. As Ossus says, Corran is much better written when Stackpole isn't doing it. Kyp Durron is much the same as well.
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