Minimum Imperial force to destroy Borg Collective?

LordShaithis · Post by **LordShaithis** » 2004-01-10 11:29pm

Assuming the goal is to exterminate the Borg Collective within the space of three years, what's the minimum Imperial force that could be successful?

Techno_Union · Post by **Techno_Union** » 2004-01-10 11:32pm

whats the timeline? If there is none then it is the Death Star all the way.

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2004-01-10 11:48pm

If rapid BDZing of borg worlds counts as 'extermination', then a single Executor with a fleet of fleet oilers could pull it off. Jump around killing all their planets, avoiding fleet engagements. If they've really got 1,000 worlds, then two and a half months should be enough time... assuming sufficent fuel. Once their planets and platforms are gone, hunting down their remaining ships involve using a heap of probe droids to find their fleets.

This assumes that the borg have 5-10 ships per world, that they quickly realise they're under attack and keep their ships close to their planets for defence, like they did against s8472, and that these defense fleets are destroyed before BDZing. Robert?

Robert Walper · Post by **Robert Walper** » 2004-01-11 02:23am

Stark wrote:If rapid BDZing of borg worlds counts as 'extermination', then a single Executor with a fleet of fleet oilers could pull it off. Jump around killing all their planets, avoiding fleet engagements. If they've really got 1,000 worlds, then two and a half months should be enough time... assuming sufficent fuel. Once their planets and platforms are gone, hunting down their remaining ships involve using a heap of probe droids to find their fleets.

This assumes that the borg have 5-10 ships per world, that they quickly realise they're under attack and keep their ships close to their planets for defence, like they did against s8472, and that these defense fleets are destroyed before BDZing. Robert?

Presumeably the Borg would recognize the pattern of the Imperials striking worlds, and deploy their fleets accordingly. Given the consensus of the board, thousands of cubes could be guarding a planet and a single ISD would dust them effortlesly.

So we're left with just practically gauging number of planets. Your statement of 1,000 worlds only is inaccurate, the Borg have thousands, so this sets a lower limit of 2,000 planets the Imperials have to BDZ. Additionally, the Borg have assimilated at least 10,026 different species. Even if we assume the Borg have only completely assimiated half that number, and every race occupied only one planet, that sets a lower limit around 5,000 planets. If certain races had civilizations encompassing more than one planet, this number goes up.

This also makes the assumption the Borg don't have any presence on planets that were originally ununhabited, and taken purely for resource value, which pushes the number further up.

Then there would be other unknown targets to deal with. 6(or 5 if post Voy era) Transwarp Hubs to destroy, at least one Unicomplex, etc, etc.

A lower limit of planets the Imperials have to deal with is 2,000, and given expected variables, they might need to deal with 10's of thousands of worlds to completely exterminate the Borg. Fleets and other non planetary targets must be destroyed as well to reliably claim having exterminated the Borg Collective.

Sarevok · Post by **Sarevok** » 2004-01-11 04:58am

whats the timeline? If there is none then it is the Death Star all the way.

A single Death Star could not reach every single planet and Borg ship within three years.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2004-01-11 10:12am

evilcat4000 wrote:
whats the timeline? If there is none then it is the Death Star all the way.
A single Death Star could not reach every single planet and Borg ship within three years.

What exactly is preventing it?

Unless every single Borg ship is deciding to flee constantly...it's not really needing to hunt them down like drowning rats.

Soontir C'boath · Post by **Soontir C'boath** » 2004-01-11 10:42am

Earth years right?
365 days a year. Times 3 years is 1095 days. The Death Star has to take a whole day to recharge the superlaser*perhaps less due to shieldless planets* So that's 1095 planets destroyed in that span plus the countless installations and starships destroyed by TLs and planets slagged by BDZs that the DS can ensue on the Borg.~Jason

Solauren · Post by **Solauren** » 2004-01-11 12:39pm

The minimum effort the Empire would need to destroy the Borg collective is roughly 1 Star Destroyer per 100 planets the borg have. (Hang on however)

If the Empire had a map of Borg territory, all they would have to do is divide it up into sections, and assign each 'group of planets' to a Star Destroyer and say 'Go in and BDZ them'

At that point the number of ships needed to deal with the Borg worlds is a function of
how fast can a Star Destroyer BDZ a Borg world.
How far apart are the worlds of the Borg collective
How fast is the hyperdrive on Star Destroyer.

Off hand, I'd say probably 100 Star Destroyers could do it withing a few months, if a Borg world takes a full day to BDZ

Either that, or the Eclipse could probably do it by itself in that amount of time if it just hypers in, Superlaser's the planet, and hypers out.

(Remember, in the Jedi Academy series, the prototype Death Star's recharge rate was roughly 20 minutes, not a full day)

YT300000 · Post by **YT300000** » 2004-01-11 01:41pm

Robert Walper wrote:Then there would be other unknown targets to deal with. 6(or 5 if post Voy era) Transwarp Hubs to destroy, at least one Unicomplex, etc, etc.

Massive assumption there, the Borg don't necessarily control all the hubs. If they did, they would continue to use them after the one in Endgame went boom. But after Endgame, in SF's view the Borg have become a non-threat, which means they aren't attacking anyone anymore, likely because they can't get to them, since they're on the other side of the galaxy.

Which means they probably only control(led) one hub.

YT300000 · Post by **YT300000** » 2004-01-11 01:42pm

Solauren wrote:The minimum effort the Empire would need to destroy the Borg collective is roughly 1 Star Destroyer per 100 planets the borg have. (Hang on however)

If the Empire had a map of Borg territory, all they would have to do is divide it up into sections, and assign each 'group of planets' to a Star Destroyer and say 'Go in and BDZ them'

At that point the number of ships needed to deal with the Borg worlds is a function of
how fast can a Star Destroyer BDZ a Borg world.
How far apart are the worlds of the Borg collective
How fast is the hyperdrive on Star Destroyer.

Off hand, I'd say probably 100 Star Destroyers could do it withing a few months, if a Borg world takes a full day to BDZ

Either that, or the Eclipse could probably do it by itself in that amount of time if it just hypers in, Superlaser's the planet, and hypers out.

(Remember, in the Jedi Academy series, the prototype Death Star's recharge rate was roughly 20 minutes, not a full day)

Remember, 1 ISD can do a full BDZ in an hour.

Omega-13 · Post by **Omega-13** » 2004-01-11 02:47pm

Soontir C'boath wrote:Earth years right?
365 days a year. Times 3 years is 1095 days. The Death Star has to take a whole day to recharge the superlaser*perhaps less due to shieldless planets* So that's 1095 planets destroyed in that span plus the countless installations and starships destroyed by TLs and planets slagged by BDZs that the DS can ensue on the Borg.~Jason

thats the first deathstar, the second only needed an hour,
so thats actually less than a year to destroy every single target

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2004-01-11 03:28pm

Robert Walper wrote:Presumeably the Borg would recognize the pattern of the Imperials striking worlds, and deploy their fleets accordingly.

Slothful assertion without evidence. We've never seen an ounce of strategic or tactical creativity or intelligence from the Borg. Why should we assume that they'll suddenly get in touch with their inner tacticians and do the smart thing?

seanrobertson · Post by **seanrobertson** » 2004-01-11 04:13pm

YT300000 wrote: Massive assumption there, the Borg don't necessarily control all the hubs.

Ahoy YT.

What leads you to believe the Borg didn't/don't control all of the transwarp hubs? Everything I heard lead me to believe they were Borg constructs.

If they did, they would continue to use them after the one in Endgame went boom. But after Endgame, in SF's view the Borg have become a non-threat, which means they aren't attacking anyone anymore, likely because they can't get to them, since they're on the other side of the galaxy.

Which means they probably only control(led) one hub.

I have a few thoughts on that.

1--A nitpick: "non-threat" was never said, and is probably a bit overstated. Janeway said the destruction of the hub would render a "crippling blow to the Borg." How crippling and if, of course, that was actually true is anyone's guess.

2--If they did, they would continue to use them after the one in Endgame went boom...

...reads an awful lot like a false dichotomy; i.e., "Either the Borg use the other hubs after 'Endgame,' or they didn't control the other hubs at all."

Indeed, there are other possibilities (overlooking the fact that we can't confirm or deny any Borg activity following "Endgame," and probably never will).

For instance, why assume that all 5-6 hubs have a "track" that leads to the Federation in the first place?

Additionally, why assume the Borg would be so quick to use the things immediately after "Endgame," let alone in an invasion of the Federation? With the loss of the primary Unicomplex, their HQ, even the Collective would know going on the offensive's ill-advised.

3--Your argument also risks circularity:

P1--The Borg don't necessarily control more than one hub.
P2--The Borg didn't use other hubs to attack the Federation (or whatever).
C: Therefore, the Borg probably only control one hub.

Do you see the problem there? One of your premises and your conclusion are essentially interchangable. To break the circle, you'd want to flesh out the first premise significantly, then address the problems inherent to the second premise (see #2).

seanrobertson · Post by **seanrobertson** » 2004-01-11 04:17pm

Durandal wrote:
Robert Walper wrote:Presumeably the Borg would recognize the pattern of the Imperials striking worlds, and deploy their fleets accordingly.

Slothful assertion without evidence. We've never seen an ounce of strategic or tactical creativity or intelligence from the Borg. Why should we assume that they'll suddenly get in touch with their inner tacticians and do the smart thing?

Damien,

I do think the Borg are smart enough to recognize they need to put ships around the most likely intended targets, planets.

Of course, that's a non-issue anyway: even the largest fleets they might assemble aren't going to halt, let alone slow, the Imperial advance.

Robert Walper · Post by **Robert Walper** » 2004-01-11 04:18pm

seanrobertson wrote: *snip*

Whew! My Borg couterpart has showed up to provide some much needed support!

Seriously though, welcome back Sean.

Robert Walper · Post by **Robert Walper** » 2004-01-11 04:20pm

seanrobertson wrote:
Durandal wrote:
Robert Walper wrote:Presumeably the Borg would recognize the pattern of the Imperials striking worlds, and deploy their fleets accordingly.

Slothful assertion without evidence. We've never seen an ounce of strategic or tactical creativity or intelligence from the Borg. Why should we assume that they'll suddenly get in touch with their inner tacticians and do the smart thing?
Damien,

I do think the Borg are smart enough to recognize they need to put ships around the most likely intended targets, planets.

Of course, that's a non-issue anyway: even the largest fleets they might assemble aren't going to halt, let alone slow, the Imperial advance.

Pretty much what I asserted. The Borg's tactical sense is a Red Herring really.

If anything, I was making the Imperial's goal that much easier, since most of the Borg's ships would be clustered around major targets, making the potential extermination that much faster.

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2004-01-11 04:32pm

seanrobertson wrote:Damien,

I do think the Borg are smart enough to recognize they need to put ships around the most likely intended targets, planets.

On what do you base this? The Borg only send one Cube to important planets they intend to assimilate. They clearly have no idea how to utilize their resources effectively.

Robert Walper · Post by **Robert Walper** » 2004-01-11 04:36pm

Durandal wrote:
seanrobertson wrote:Damien,

I do think the Borg are smart enough to recognize they need to put ships around the most likely intended targets, planets.
On what do you base this? The Borg only send one Cube to important planets they intend to assimilate.

STVOY "Hope and Fear" contradicts this assertion. The Borg deployed hundreds of cubes against a single species target.

They clearly have no idea how to utilize their resources effectively.

In regards to their ability and willingness to deploy more than one cube against a target, you're incorrect.

You're confusing the Borg's excessive application of efficiency with ability.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2004-01-11 04:41pm

Required: 1 Lambada shuttle
1 R2 Unit
Money

Fly shuttle to Earth. Get a copy of all the writings by B&B and the worst of the SW EU. Have R2 unit convert them to e book format. Fly to Unamatrix complex. Dock, and upload new e books into collective.

Borg commit suicide rather then go on with such tripe in their heads.

Done.

seanrobertson · Post by **seanrobertson** » 2004-01-11 05:09pm

Durandal wrote: On what do you base this? The Borg only send one Cube to important planets they intend to assimilate. They clearly have no idea how to utilize their resources effectively.

A few things:

1--That's certainly true in a couple of cases, but we have instances in which the Borg dispatched more ships to assimilate and/or attack a foe:

A. Three ships, two cubes and a "diamond," were dispatched to assimilate a planet of ~400,000 ("Dark Frontier").

B. Arturis claimed that his home system was "surrounded [by] hundreds of cubes" when it was finally overrun ("Hope and Fear"). See: http://www.uss-voyager.bravepages.com/ep94b.htm

Maybe he was exaggerating--he was certainly upset about the whole assimilation thing, after all

--but by how much? Surely he couldn't interpret a few cubes as "hundreds."

C. 15 cubes were sent to intercept a fleet of Species 8472 ships ("Scorpion pt. I").

D. Guinan claims the Borg "swarmed through [the El-Aurian] system." That's somewhat ambiguous, but would seem to suggest the Borg "didn't do anything piecemeal" in assimilating her race.

2--Sending a ship to attack a planet 50,000 ly+ away is rather different than bolstering ship patrols in one's own territory.

Mind you, I'm not saying the Borg would assemble thousands of ships in anticipation of a specific Imperial attack.

I'm simply saying that, if the Imps start BDZing Borg worlds to hell, why should we assume the Borg are too stupid to recognize their planets are the targets?

If that was the case, and their threat recognition so abysmal as a result, how would we explain the 100+ cubes that attacked Arturis' people?

YT300000 · Post by **YT300000** » 2004-01-11 06:00pm

seanrobertson wrote:
YT300000 wrote: Massive assumption there, the Borg don't necessarily control all the hubs.
Ahoy YT.

What leads you to believe the Borg didn't/don't control all of the transwarp hubs? Everything I heard lead me to believe they were Borg constructs.

Janeway: But you once told me there are only 6 transwarp hubs in the entire galaxy! (or something to that effect)

She sounds genuinely shocked that the Borg have a hub (at least, that's how I interpreted it). It is possible that she's shocked that there's a hub right where they are.

At any rate, if the Borg could make hubs, why did they only build 6? Why not more?

If they did, they would continue to use them after the one in Endgame went boom. But after Endgame, in SF's view the Borg have become a non-threat, which means they aren't attacking anyone anymore, likely because they can't get to them, since they're on the other side of the galaxy.

Which means they probably only control(led) one hub.
I have a few thoughts on that.

1--A nitpick: "non-threat" was never said, and is probably a bit overstated. Janeway said the destruction of the hub would render a "crippling blow to the Borg." How crippling and if, of course, that was actually true is anyone's guess.

2--If they did, they would continue to use them after the one in Endgame went boom...

...reads an awful lot like a false dichotomy; i.e., "Either the Borg use the other hubs after 'Endgame,' or they didn't control the other hubs at all."

Indeed, there are other possibilities (overlooking the fact that we can't confirm or deny any Borg activity following "Endgame," and probably never will).

For instance, why assume that all 5-6 hubs have a "track" that leads to the Federation in the first place?

Additionally, why assume the Borg would be so quick to use the things immediately after "Endgame," let alone in an invasion of the Federation? With the loss of the primary Unicomplex, their HQ, even the Collective would know going on the offensive's ill-advised.

3--Your argument also risks circularity:

P1--The Borg don't necessarily control more than one hub.
P2--The Borg didn't use other hubs to attack the Federation (or whatever).
C: Therefore, the Borg probably only control one hub.

Do you see the problem there? One of your premises and your conclusion are essentially interchangable. To break the circle, you'd want to flesh out the first premise significantly, then address the problems inherent to the second premise (see #2).

I'll start with the end. The conclusion is a restatement of the first premise because that's what I'm trying to prove. I restated it so that you (or Walper) would know what I was saying, as my whole paragraph was a little rambling.

First Bolded: Remember, these are the Borg, who have practically no concept of tactics. If they have an advantage, they use it.

Second Bolded: Good Point. But if you assume that the Borg make the hubs (see above) then not having a track to SF makes no sense.

Basically, this is one of those debates that noone ever wins, and in the end there's about as much evidence as counter-evidence.

Soontir C'boath · Post by **Soontir C'boath** » 2004-01-11 08:35pm

Omega-13 wrote:thats the first deathstar, the second only needed an hour, so thats actually less than a year to destroy every single target

I am staying away from the DSII as the only targets we have seen it fire upon are starships.~Jason

Robert Walper · Post by **Robert Walper** » 2004-01-11 08:35pm

YT300000 wrote:
seanrobertson wrote:
YT300000 wrote: Massive assumption there, the Borg don't necessarily control all the hubs.
Ahoy YT.

What leads you to believe the Borg didn't/don't control all of the transwarp hubs? Everything I heard lead me to believe they were Borg constructs.
Janeway: But you once told me there are only 6 transwarp hubs in the entire galaxy! (or something to that effect)

How is this evidence said Hubs are not under Borg control?

She sounds genuinely shocked that the Borg have a hub (at least, that's how I interpreted it).

No, she was shocked at seeing one, and her future self not telling her about it. How, exactly, are you interpreting her shock as evidence the Borg only control one hub?

I was unaware a person displaying "shock" can determine what a enemy has or is capable of.

It is possible that she's shocked that there's a hub right where they are.

Obviously. And you're exaggerating her reaction. "Shock" is not the word I'd use to describe her reaction. Very worried and slightly awed would be a better description IMO.

At any rate, if the Borg could make hubs, why did they only build 6? Why not more?

Resources, time, recovering from a massive war with Species 8472. Don't you think those would be good reasons?

What's with this No Limits Fallacy, anyhow? If they "only" have 6, maybe they can't build any more. Or maybe they don't need anymore.

YT300000 · Post by **YT300000** » 2004-01-11 10:17pm

I'll reply tommorw, I really need to go now.

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2004-01-12 02:14am

YT300000 wrote:Massive assumption there, the Borg don't necessarily control all the hubs. If they did, they would continue to use them after the one in Endgame went boom. But after Endgame, in SF's view the Borg have become a non-threat, which means they aren't attacking anyone anymore, likely because they can't get to them, since they're on the other side of the galaxy.

Which means they probably only control(led) one hub.

Even when they controlled that one hub, they still didn't use it against the Federation. So the non-use of another five hubs is not meaningful.

At any rate, if the Borg could make hubs, why did they only build 6? Why not more?

If the Borg could make ships, why did they only build several thousand? Why not more? Why not a million?

If the Empire could make Death Stars, why did they only build two? Why not more?