Who likes classical music?

IRG CommandoJoe · Post by **IRG CommandoJoe** » 2004-01-08 01:35pm

Hmm...how many megabytes is it? Is there any way I may obtain it?

(Listening to Beethoven's fourth movement of the 9th.

)

Post by **haas mark** » 2004-01-08 01:37pm

Mvt1 - 12.1MB
Mvt2 - 3.29MB
Mvt3 - 4.88MB

And hypothetically, yes.. -points at various messengers-

~ver

IRG CommandoJoe · Post by **IRG CommandoJoe** » 2004-01-08 02:01pm

Aha....ok I'll log on AIM and contact you. My sn is the same as it is here.

Post by **haas mark** » 2004-01-08 02:13pm

IRG CommandoJoe wrote:Aha....ok I'll log on AIM and contact you. My sn is the same as it is here.

Ok let me let these winblows updates finish before I log on though.

Here is my playlist, by the way.

~ver

IRG CommandoJoe · Post by **IRG CommandoJoe** » 2004-01-08 02:35pm

Heh, I'll give you Rachmaninoff's Prelude No. 5 in G Minor. If you like his other preludes on that list, you'll love this one. I can play it myself.

IRG CommandoJoe · Post by **IRG CommandoJoe** » 2004-01-08 02:46pm

Hmm....I just noticed you have nothing more of Liszt's piano pieces besides Ständchen. How utterly wrong...

(Shudders.)

I'll have to give you some of mine as well.

IRG CommandoJoe · Post by **IRG CommandoJoe** » 2004-01-08 04:10pm

What happened?

I've been waiting waaay too long. I'm off to play some DoD.

Post by **haas mark** » 2004-01-08 06:25pm

IRG CommandoJoe wrote:What happened? I've been waiting waaay too long. I'm off to play some DoD.

Sorry about that.. will have to catch you tomorrow on that. -growls at other people-

~ver

Baron Scarpia · Post by **Baron Scarpia** » 2004-01-08 09:23pm

You guys are delusional...I don't care who the pianist/instrumentalist is, nobody--and I mean, nobody--is telling Furtwangler, Von Karajan, Toscanini, Bernstein, Reiner, Klemperer, etc. what to do about tempos.

Face it... Conductor = God.

jenat-lai · Post by **jenat-lai** » 2004-01-09 12:36am

That's what they like to think...

Toscanini was ruthless with this apparently. Sacking players at a whim for doing something like saying "Yes sir" marking the new tempo, and playing it the way they were before anyway (something I do from time to time with youth orchestra conductors who are too big headded for their own good)

Bernstein however would listen to players suggestions at times, and even ask their opinion on things. He wasn't so ruthless with his orchestras.

jenat-lai · Post by **jenat-lai** » 2004-01-09 12:49am

with a concerto, the soloist gets to change tempo at their own discrescion. If the conductor doesn't like it, then he will have to listen in horror as there becomes two distinct tempi. If the soloist is a vocalist, he will then listen as the singer simply stops and does not start again untill he stops.

In performance, depending on instrument which is solo... piano most commonly. the tempo WILL change at some point and there's nothing anyone can do about it. The soloist will usually (not so much in piano) be the melodic drive. Melody drives tempo. Accompianment follows. no professional orchestra will be unmusical enough not to follow a soloist. Especially the way Karrijan conducts, 2 seconds ahead of the orcestra's pulse. He can suggest tempi, but if the soloist doesn't follow, there's nothing he can do about it.

Of course behind closed doors away from the orchestra, Karrijan or any other good conductor has already been with the soloist, and will conduct what the soloist has demonstrated he already does. in effect due to alot of conferencing, and listening to that performer, the conductor already knows how the soloist wants it... however this doesn't work if your soloist is David Healthcott... cos he changes tempo at a whim, and has the communications skills of an ape.

IRG CommandoJoe · Post by **IRG CommandoJoe** » 2004-01-09 11:34am

Baron Scarpia wrote:You guys are delusional...I don't care who the pianist/instrumentalist is, nobody--and I mean, nobody--is telling Furtwangler, Von Karajan, Toscanini, Bernstein, Reiner, Klemperer, etc. what to do about tempos.

Face it... Conductor = God.

Suuuuure....just like Vladimir Horowitz would immediately cave in to the conductor.

...

Think about that.

jenat-lai wrote:however this doesn't work if your soloist is David Healthcott... cos he changes tempo at a whim, and has the communications skills of an ape.

Umm...do you mean David Helfgott?

jenat-lai · Post by **jenat-lai** » 2004-01-09 05:38pm

yeh, that guy. I'v had the interesting experience of playing with him as the soloist and me in the orcestra. Conductor had a hell of a time keeping in time with him. I think he got 'excited' in the performance and went bloody fast in the fast section (Rach 2 I might add)

all fun and games, but goes to show, soloist does whatever the hell they want to.

IRG CommandoJoe · Post by **IRG CommandoJoe** » 2004-01-09 07:49pm

Did you ever see that movie The Shine?

Dahak · Post by **Dahak** » 2004-01-10 08:52pm

Baron Scarpia wrote:Bolero is a musical travesty. How anyone can sit through it in concert is beyong me.

It's one of my favourites. It may be a bit repetitive at first, but I never had trouble to "sit through" it.
The techno version of it was hell, though.

And ver, it is "Händel" (or if you're limited to american keyboards, Haendel

)

jenat-lai · Post by **jenat-lai** » 2004-01-11 01:50am

Dahak! Get some of the minimalist composers like John Adams, Phil Glass and Steve Reich. If you like Bolero, then this stuff might be interesting for you. I personally like John Adams the most, but all of them write very mind-opening music. I'v already put a list on page 2, but to save you going back. click here and check out Phil Glass's Violin Concerto here and John Adams' Harmonilehre here

Post by **haas mark** » 2004-01-11 10:09am

Dahak wrote:And ver, it is "Händel" (or if you're limited to american keyboards, Haendel )

See, Americans are stupid and don't know how to spell. I didn't know that.

And I'm limited on my keyboard, but the alt key is wonderful.

~ver

Baron Scarpia · Post by **Baron Scarpia** » 2004-01-11 10:17am

jenat-lai wrote:with a concerto, the soloist gets to change tempo at their own discrescion. If the conductor doesn't like it, then he will have to listen in horror as there becomes two distinct tempi. If the soloist is a vocalist, he will then listen as the singer simply stops and does not start again untill he stops.

In performance, depending on instrument which is solo... piano most commonly. the tempo WILL change at some point and there's nothing anyone can do about it. The soloist will usually (not so much in piano) be the melodic drive. Melody drives tempo. Accompianment follows. no professional orchestra will be unmusical enough not to follow a soloist. Especially the way Karrijan conducts, 2 seconds ahead of the orcestra's pulse. He can suggest tempi, but if the soloist doesn't follow, there's nothing he can do about it.

Of course behind closed doors away from the orchestra, Karrijan or any other good conductor has already been with the soloist, and will conduct what the soloist has demonstrated he already does. in effect due to alot of conferencing, and listening to that performer, the conductor already knows how the soloist wants it... however this doesn't work if your soloist is David Healthcott... cos he changes tempo at a whim, and has the communications skills of an ape.

And, again, while some soloists may be big enough to do this, very few can get away with this and expect to continue to be invited to perform with leading conductors. Sure, Kathleen Battle can be a controlling bitch when she's working with conductor Joe Schmoe, but when it's Claudio Abbado, she'd better reign herself in and follow his lead or get canned.

Conductors work out with soloists beforehand the details, and it's as much the conductor's wishes being put into the soloist's performance as well as the soloist's being put into the conductor's. That's why Horowitz playing for Karajan is different that Horowitz playing for Bernstein, and so forth.

Just listen to a recording of Furtwangler conducting any concerto, and you'll see what I mean.

BTW, melody rarely drives the tempo--that's a recipe for disaster. Talk to any conductor, and they'll tell you that it's the bass line that drives the pulse in most musical passages. If it doesn't, you're asking for a lot of trouble. There are exceptions when the melody is col canto, but that's not the norm. I can't imagine anyone conducting Beethoven's 5th as if there was a melodic lead for the pulse.

jenat-lai · Post by **jenat-lai** » 2004-01-11 06:07pm

Beethoven's 5th has no melody

It's constructed more like modern music with melodic cells. genius really. and a good hundred years before it's time. (not the other movements, just first. the final movement sounds a little Wagnarian if anything to me lol)

I guess on closer examination, melody has a form of it's own time which locks into the bass and harmonic rhythm on specific beats. You might call it a form of rubato, but you often see conductors conducting the rubato also, the good ones anyway. It's suggested rather than layed down precicley.

The oddest thing is conductors like Karijan specificly and others as well is this beating ahead of the orchestra. I'v run into a few that do it, and it's a completley different approach to playing as the 'on the beat' conductors. I find it works best with Opera conducting (as in the on the beat approach doesn't give you a good chance of connecting) although again, it depends on the singer, and the musical moment. Many of the R.Strauss tone poems are better conducted like that also. Something like Brahms 4 1st movement or Mahler 6 often need to have the pulse on pulse though.

I'v come upon one fool of a conductor that was trying to pull the tempo back after starting too quick in Paggliacci (prologue) but it ended up looking like he was conducting behind the orchestra, but in the same tempo. Confused the hell out of me to the point that I dismissed his gesturing as incompetence, and just followed the... er... hmm *thinks for a whyle* Why I think it may well have been the Basses, but also the top violins (they have alot of thematic material which I share also, so you listen to what you play, and replicate it on occasion)

Ceartainly some interesting stories come up after you play music for a whyle...

Post by **haas mark** » 2004-01-11 11:24pm

What is it you play again, jenat? Trumpet?

~ver

jenat-lai · Post by **jenat-lai** » 2004-01-12 01:46am

affirm. Yes where not all bull headed blasters, we do actually listen to what the other people do on occasion, at least the good ones do

Post by **haas mark** » 2004-01-12 03:24pm

jenat-lai wrote:affirm. Yes where not all bull headed blasters, we do actually listen to what the other people do on occasion, at least the good ones do

I know.

And generally, given the area where trumpets sit, I'd think it more likely that the trumpet's'd be listening to the trombones for the bass line, as the basses are way over on the left and.. well.. bassists are bassists.

~ver

jenat-lai · Post by **jenat-lai** » 2004-01-12 03:49pm

it's all great to listen to trombones for bottom up tuning, but they don't play much, I tend to listen to the strings for alot of stuff, simply because they play alot of stuff. You need more than a millionth of a beat to get in time with something. Trombones only play as much as trumpets do, sometimes less. Hard to get anything out of silence

Post by **haas mark** » 2004-01-12 04:24pm

jenat-lai wrote:it's all great to listen to trombones for bottom up tuning, but they don't play much, I tend to listen to the strings for alot of stuff, simply because they play alot of stuff. You need more than a millionth of a beat to get in time with something. Trombones only play as much as trumpets do, sometimes less. Hard to get anything out of silence

Ah, then I just don't have the experience you do.

In most of the pieces that I played with the youth orchestra at least, the trombones played generally along with the basses. -shrugs- Go figure.

But yes.. strings CAN be a good thing to listen to, but even then, you have to be careful, because like I said bassists are... bassists. They get carried away sometimes.

~ver

IRG CommandoJoe · Post by **IRG CommandoJoe** » 2004-01-14 03:46am

verilon wrote:Ah, then I just don't have the experience you do. In most of the pieces that I played with the youth orchestra at least, the trombones played generally along with the basses. -shrugs- Go figure.

It's probably because they picked pieces where everyone had something to play...which really annoys the crap out of me since there are many great works that don't fully implement the whole orchestra. But then again, the students have to be graded, right? Eh...