Lincoln and Secession

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Crayz9000
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Post by Crayz9000 »

Nathan F wrote:Really?
Abraham Lincoln wrote:My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or to destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that. What I do about slavery, and the colored race, I do because I believe it helps to save the Union; and what I forbear, I forbear because I do not believe it would help to save the Union. I shall do less whenever I shall believe what I am doing hurts the cause, and I shall do more whenever I shall believe doing more will help the cause.
So in other words, Lincoln was simply trying to save the Union by any and all means possible. If you're going to point out that he says "If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it" -- well, he then goes "And if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it..."

It would appear that at the time, he was more concerned about the Union falling apart than the slavery issue. I would be too, although the slavery problem WOULD be at the back of my mind.
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Post by Bob McDob »

I seem to recall Lincoln wanted to give the slaves their own Liberia-esque country in Central America.
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Post by Nathan F »

Bob McDob wrote:I seem to recall Lincoln wanted to give the slaves their own Liberia-esque country in Central America.
Nope, Liberia was created by some abolitionists before the war, or maybe afterwards. But not Lincoln.
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Post by Joe »

Bob McDob wrote:I seem to recall Lincoln wanted to give the slaves their own Liberia-esque country in Central America.
Yep, he supported sending blacks back to Africa for much of his career. But he didn't talk about it much during his last years; he may have changed his mind.
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Post by Nathan F »

Joe wrote:
Bob McDob wrote:I seem to recall Lincoln wanted to give the slaves their own Liberia-esque country in Central America.
Yep, he supported sending blacks back to Africa for much of his career. But he didn't talk about it much during his last years; he may have changed his mind.
As I recall, most blacks didn't want to go back, seeing as though they had never been there themselves and were born in the Americas.
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Post by Joe »

No shit. It's a shame Lincoln didn't come to this realization initially.
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Post by Illuminatus Primus »

Nathan F wrote:
Abraham Lincoln wrote:My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or to destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that. What I do about slavery, and the colored race, I do because I believe it helps to save the Union; and what I forbear, I forbear because I do not believe it would help to save the Union. I shall do less whenever I shall believe what I am doing hurts the cause, and I shall do more whenever I shall believe doing more will help the cause.
Distortions.

What would you have him do? Free the slaves by handwavium, and stand about while he was politically destroyed and possibly the North overcome? The only way he could effectively end slavery was if the Union was preserved anyway.

You're playing false dilemma fallacies, and it doesn't fly.
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Re: GW Bush Sticks his Foot in his Mouth

Post by Durandal »

Nathan F wrote:Abe Lincoln was a white supremacist, and said that if he wouldn't have emancipated the slaves if he hadn't ...
Care to finish that thought?

In any case, Lincoln's freeing of the slaves did more for the advancement of human rights than George W. Bush ever could. Lincoln's motivations for doing so or his personal opinions are irrelevant. He freed the slaves. Dubya did not.
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Post by Axis Kast »

Lincoln, during his time, recieved almost as much flak as Bush today.

His election sparked much rancor, virtually splitting the country at the seams.

Despite early enthusiasm about the need to return the South to the fold, after one and a half years of warfare, there were calls from all sides for reconciliation and admittance of failure by Federal officials.

He was roundly accused - especially in the Midwest - of plotting to steal American liberties through wartime acts.

He was challenged by a former Army general in his second election.

Many critics refered to the Civil War as "Mr. Lincoln's," in a possessive sense.

Finally, Lincoln freed the slaves, whatever his actual reason, by force of military action. Bush freed the Iraqis, whatever his actual reason, by force of military action. Of course, it took a long time before Lincoln's start got rolling and life for the average black family began to improve. The same is now said by President Bush of Iraq.
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Post by Iceberg »

And if anybody claimed Lincoln was a blameless saint, you might have a point there.

Bush claimed that he did more for human rights than any other POTUS. That kind of claim clearly does not stand up to the evidence.
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Post by jegs2 »

Joe wrote:Nathan, FDR and Lincoln may not have been perfect, but you know just as well as I do that they did more for human rights than Dubya has. It's kind of insulting to their legacy for Dubya to say otherwise.
Lincoln was the best dictator the US ever had. Had he survived, he may have been impeached for trampling the US Constitution. His assassination helped stamp his name in US history as a hero.
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Post by Iceberg »

jegs2 wrote:
Joe wrote:Nathan, FDR and Lincoln may not have been perfect, but you know just as well as I do that they did more for human rights than Dubya has. It's kind of insulting to their legacy for Dubya to say otherwise.
Lincoln was the best dictator the US ever had. Had he survived, he may have been impeached for trampling the US Constitution. His assassination helped stamp his name in US history as a hero.
Section 9, Clause 2 of the U.S. Constitution.

"The privilege of the Writ of Habeas Corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in Cases of Rebellion or Invasion the public Safety may require it. "
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Post by Iceberg »

Sorry, that should read:

Article I, Section 9, Clause 2
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Post by jegs2 »

Iceberg wrote:"The privilege of the Writ of Habeas Corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in Cases of Rebellion or Invasion the public Safety may require it. "[/b]
If only that were the only part of the Constitution that Lincoln trampled. It matters not, since the victors write history...
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Post by Iceberg »

Amuse me. What other parts of the Constitution did Lincoln "trample"?
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Post by Hamel »

That came right out of right field Jegs, really
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Post by jegs2 »

Iceberg wrote:Amuse me. What other parts of the Constitution did Lincoln "trample"?
I'll not attempt to convince Yankees that their "hero" was anything less than the high and mighty saviour they perceive him to be, for that would be nothing more than a waste of time. Believe what you like of him...
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Post by jegs2 »

...just don't expect me to hold up Lincoln as some great advocate for human rights, nor agree with those who hold such a ridiculous sentiment.
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Post by Joe »

He indeed did trample parts of the Constitution. But he saved the whole, and that's what matters.
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Post by Iceberg »

jegs2 wrote:
Iceberg wrote:Amuse me. What other parts of the Constitution did Lincoln "trample"?
I'll not attempt to convince Yankees that their "hero" was anything less than the high and mighty saviour they perceive him to be, for that would be nothing more than a waste of time. Believe what you like of him...
If you can't "waste your time" to back up your arguments, your arguments are worthless. Thank you, please pull ahead.
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Post by jegs2 »

Iceberg wrote:If you can't "waste your time" to back up your arguments, your arguments are worthless. Thank you, please pull ahead.
Since you seem to be thoroghly indoctrinated to envision Lincoln as a holy saint, I'll humor you once, though you will doubtless reject anything I would post that would challenge your views of Lincoln's ability to walk on water (thus my assertion that it be a waste of my time):

From this article:
More than 130 years of government propaganda has hidden this fact from the American people by creating a Mythical Lincoln that never existed. Take, for instance, the fact that everyone supposedly knows – that Lincoln was an abolitionist. This would be a surprise to the preeminent Lincoln scholar, Pulitzer prize-winning Lincoln biographer David Donald, who in his 1961 book, Lincoln Reconsidered, wrote that "Lincoln was not an abolitionist." And he wasn’t. He was glad to accept on behalf of the Republican Party any votes from abolitionists, but real abolitionists despised him. William Lloyd Garrison, the most prominent of all abolitionists, concluded that Lincoln "had not a drop of anti-slavery blood in his veins."

Garrison knew Lincoln well. He knew that Lincoln stated over and over again for his entire adult life that he did not believe in social or political equality of the races, he opposed inter-racial marriage, supported the Illinois constitution’s prohibition of immigration of blacks into the state, once defended in court a slaveowner seeking to retrieve his runaway slaves but never defended a runaway, and that he was a lifelong advocate of colonization – of sending every last black person in the U.S. to Africa, Haiti, or central America – anywhere but in the U.S.

Garrison and other abolitionists were also keenly aware that the January 1863 Emancipation Proclamation freed no one since it specifically exempted all the areas that at the time were occupied by federal armies. That is, all areas where slaves could actually have been freed.

Moreover, Lincoln destroyed the most important principle of the Declaration – the principle that governments derive their just powers from the consent of the governed. Southerners no longer consented to being governed by Washington, D.C. in 1860, and Lincoln put an end to that idea by having his armies slaughter 300,000 of them, including one out of every four white males between 20 and 40. Standardizing for today’s population, that would be the equivalent of around 3 million American deaths, or roughly 60 times the number of Americans who died in Vietnam.

As H.L. Mencken said of the Gettysburg Address, in which Lincoln absurdly claimed that Northern soldiers were fighting for the cause of self determination ("that government of the people . . . should not perish . . .": "It is difficult to imagine anything more untrue. The Union soldiers in the battle actually fought against self determination; it was the Confederates who fought for the right of their people to govern themselves. The Confederates went into the battle free; they came out with their freedom subject to the supervision of the rest of the country."

Another Lincoln myth was that he "saved the Constitution." But this claim is an outrage considering that Lincoln acted like a dictator for the duration of his administration and showed nothing but bitter contempt for the Constitution. Even Lincoln’s idolaters, like historian Clinton Rossiter, author of the book, Constitutional Dictatorship, referred to him as a "great dictator" who had an "amazing disregard for the Constitution . . . that was considered by nobody as legal."

The Dictator Lincoln invaded the South without the consent of Congress, as called for in the Constitution; declared martial law; blockaded Southern ports without a declaration of war, as required by the Constitution; illegally suspended the writ of habeas corpus; imprisoned without trial thousands of Northern anti-war protesters, including hundreds of newspaper editors and owners; censored all newspaper and telegraph communication; nationalized the railroads; created three new states without the consent of the citizens of those states in order to artificially inflate the Republican Party’s electoral vote; ordered Federal troops to interfere with Northern elections to assure Republican Party victories; deported Ohio Congressman Clement L. Vallandigham for opposing his domestic policies (especially protectionist tariffs and income taxation) on the floor of the House of Representatives; confiscated private property, including firearms, in violation of the Second Amendment; and effectively gutted the Tenth and Ninth Amendments as well.

As Dean Sprague correctly pointed out in Freedom Under Lincoln, all of these dictatorial acts were bad enough, but their real, long-term effect was to "lay the groundwork" for such unprecedented acts of coercion as military conscription and income taxation.

The biggest cost of the Lincoln’s war was the death of federalism and states’ rights, the value of which was expressed by John C. Calhoun several decades earlier when he said: "The great conservative principle of our system is in the people of the States, as parties to the Constitutional compact, and our opponents that it is in the supreme court . . . . Without a full practical recognition of the rights and sovereignty of the States, our union and liberty must perish." And they did.
And from this article:
Constitutional scholars scratched their heads once again when they heard how six of the nine Supreme Court judges, four of which were appointed by Republican presidents, had run roughshod over the Texas sodomy law.

Should we be surprised? The book The Real Lincoln (c) 2002 shows how Lincoln's Civil War was not necessarily about freeing the slaves. Remember, the winners of a war rewrite the history books.

While Jefferson and Madison opposed centralized government, it says Lincoln and the Republican Party used the slavery issue brilliantly to advance their real objective: establishing a consolidated federal government.

Lincoln also confiscated firearms in violation of the Second Amendment and he effectively gutted the Ninth and Tenth Amendments to the Constitution which reserved powers to the states and to the people and were placed on the list of "rights" to safeguard personal liberties and to diffuse the power of a centralized government. But today the powers of the national government and state governments have been reversed and nearly all states facing severe budget problems have discovered too late that there is No Free Lunch!
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Lincoln's invasion of the South did lead to the end of slavery (His useless and ineffective "Emancipation Proclamation" notwithstanding), but to say that he is some high and mighty saint for human rights is laughable at best...
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Post by Rogue 9 »

jegs2 wrote:
Iceberg wrote:Amuse me. What other parts of the Constitution did Lincoln "trample"?
I'll not attempt to convince Yankees that their "hero" was anything less than the high and mighty saviour they perceive him to be, for that would be nothing more than a waste of time. Believe what you like of him...
Uh-huh. You sound like my grandfather. Think for a second. If almost anyone other than Lincoln had been in power during the Civil War, the Union would have given up and been dissolved. (Of course, I don't know if you're one of those people who think that that would be a good thing.) I've heard how people in the southern states talk about Lincoln. Think he was the Devil incarnate. :roll: And then cite all sorts of reasons that I hear and think 'Huh? How is that bad?'
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Post by Stravo »

I think what Jegs is objecting to is not Lincoln's final results its his methods and more importantly the near sainthood he has achieved historically in this country.
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Post by Nathan F »

Joe wrote:He indeed did trample parts of the Constitution. But he saved the whole, and that's what matters.
Being devils advocate here, but because the constitution was being trampled is even MORE reason for continued secession by the southern states.
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Post by Iceberg »

The South seceded because they had backed themselves rhetorically into a corner where to not do so would have unmanned them politically in all future conflicts with the North. They threatened to secede if Lincoln was elected - blackmailing a presidential election so they could get a pro-slavery Democrat - and to not do so would have badly wounded them politically.

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