Army running out of ammo...

Guardsman Bass · Post by **Guardsman Bass** » 2004-01-13 01:28am

The U.S. military's only plant making small-arms ammunition is running at near capacity, 4 million rounds a day

This is weird- I would have thought the Pentagon would have been paranoid about such things as this. My only questions are- how big is that stockpile of this stuff, and what qualifies as "small arms"? Is this just pistols, or does it include the standard issue assault rifles and such?

Rubberanvil · Post by **Rubberanvil** » 2004-01-13 01:33am

Guardsman Bass wrote:
The U.S. military's only plant making small-arms ammunition is running at near capacity, 4 million rounds a day
This is weird- I would have thought the Pentagon would have been paranoid about such things as this. My only questions are- how big is that stockpile of this stuff, and what qualifies as "small arms"? Is this just pistols, or does it include the standard issue assault rifles and such?

The article mention 9mm on to 12.7mm ammo.

EmperorMing · Post by **EmperorMing** » 2004-01-13 02:22am

4 million rounds a day?!?! How long do they have to keep this capacity up?

And an additional note: when I was in, I remembered hearing about ammo they had to return or destroy as it was out of date or they couldn't shoot it all off during training.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2004-01-13 02:28am

Guardsman Bass wrote:
The U.S. military's only plant making small-arms ammunition is running at near capacity, 4 million rounds a day
This is weird- I would have thought the Pentagon would have been paranoid about such things as this. My only questions are- how big is that stockpile of this stuff, and what qualifies as "small arms"? Is this just pistols, or does it include the standard issue assault rifles and such?

Small arms always includes assault rifles and machine guns, as well as pistols. This differentiates these weapons from things like aircraft ammunition and artillery.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2004-01-13 04:48am

Stravo wrote:
Joe wrote:Feels like the Clinton years again.
Actually as I understand it, it was because of Clinton that the ammo reserves were so low when the demand began.

Indeed that is the source of the problem, thanks to Clintons love of starving the US Army of training and operational funds it was near completely out of ammunition by September 11th, huge overseas purchases (and buying out all the civilian producers) helped bridge that gap but the shortfall is in the billions of rounds. One major reason why Bush took a year to build up to Iraq was simply that the ammunition and guided bombs needed didn't exist, Clinton had fired off the stockpiles without replacement. JDAM's where needed so badly that in addition to running the existing plant three shifts a day an entirely new plant was built starting in early 2002.

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2004-01-13 04:50am

Generally the line is at 12.7mm. I generally think of 12.7mm no longer being small arms, although this article disagrees. Shit, a 12.7mm weapon generally isn't even usable by one man (large sniper rifles being the exception). Certainly anything larger is anti-material and therefore not really small arms anymore.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2004-01-13 05:00am

EmperorMing wrote:4 million rounds a day?!?! How long do they have to keep this capacity up?

Years, the US military should have literally billions of these rounds stockpiled, it takes a long time to make them all even a 4 million a day, and in nay case all the ammo is going directly to units rather then warstocks.

And an additional note: when I was in, I remembered hearing about ammo they had to return or destroy as it was out of date or they couldn't shoot it all off during training.

I've heard that as well. What probably happened was the Army was digging deep into its warstocks to get ammo for training, something that should never happen but had to, and dragged out some old cases. Outdated stuff is supposed to be discarded, but well inventorying and checking the dates on everything in the US militaries war stocks is a rather fucking huge job.

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2004-01-13 08:39am

Aye, you need ammo being made all the time to replace the old ordinance. The powder doesn't last forever.

Dirty Harry · Post by **Dirty Harry** » 2004-01-13 09:56am

The same things happening in this country. The reason for that is because nearly all the ammo being manufactured here is of the live kind and is being sent to Iraq. I only recently got to use blank rounds during section attack drills as blanks are not as easy to come by as they were.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2004-01-13 11:25am

Admiral Valdemar wrote:You can always... hehe... import... hah... the ammo.

Sorry, America importing bullets is just too silly for me.

We did it in the past to get smoe cheapm stuff, however they proved to be so bad we dumped the bulk of it in the north sea.

BlkbrryTheGreat · Post by **BlkbrryTheGreat** » 2004-01-13 01:26pm

Good to know that one good bomb run (by say a stategic bomber) could completly cripple the US Army.

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2004-01-13 02:27pm

BlkbrryTheGreat wrote:Good to know that one good bomb run (by say a stategic bomber) could completly cripple the US Army.

You'd have to get that bomber there first and I doubt small arms form the bulk of the army.

CaptainChewbacca · Post by **CaptainChewbacca** » 2004-01-13 02:36pm

Admiral Valdemar wrote:
BlkbrryTheGreat wrote:Good to know that one good bomb run (by say a stategic bomber) could completly cripple the US Army.
You'd have to get that bomber there first and I doubt small arms form the bulk of the army.

Yeah... we'll be stuck with assault rifles.

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2004-01-13 02:38pm

Assault rifles are small arms, as explained above.

CaptainChewbacca · Post by **CaptainChewbacca** » 2004-01-13 02:42pm

Howedar wrote:Assault rifles are small arms, as explained above.

I hang my head in shame...

My persuit of the joke has brought dishonor upon my family. Seppuku is the only recourse I have.

Farewell.

Raxmei · Post by **Raxmei** » 2004-01-13 03:06pm

I remember back in the nineties hearing about the army running out of 9mm. Is the current shortage of any specific caliber, or is it across the board?

Rubberanvil · Post by **Rubberanvil** » 2004-01-13 06:14pm

Raxmei wrote:I remember back in the nineties hearing about the army running out of 9mm. Is the current shortage of any specific caliber, or is it across the board?

It's was across the board iirc.

EmperorMing · Post by **EmperorMing** » 2004-01-13 07:18pm

Dirty Harry wrote: ...
I only recently got to use blank rounds during section attack drills as blanks are not as easy to come by as they were.

I remember using *live* rounds during BASIC

training in two man teams.

One would fire, pause and the other team member would then advance. You can just imagine the nasty scenario if someone didn't pay attention...

Surprisingly, I never heard of someone being hit, and no one in my cycle got hurt either.

The Dark · Post by **The Dark** » 2004-01-15 01:05am

Nathan F wrote:Also, other countries could assist in the supply, thanks in part to NATO's homogenization of the ammo used by it's member countries.

Even if NATO's choice of caliber is less than maximally efficient. A 9mm pistol won't stop much, based on what friends of mine on various police forces have told me, and the 5.56 NATO rifle round is only moderately effective. It seems like they keep trying to make equipment lighter and easier to carry without taking lethality into consideration.

Sea Skimmer wrote:One major reason why Bush took a year to build up to Iraq was simply that the ammunition and guided bombs needed didn't exist, Clinton had fired off the stockpiles without replacement. JDAM's where needed so badly that in addition to running the existing plant three shifts a day an entirely new plant was built starting in early 2002.

The first guided launch of a JDAM announced on November 5, 1996, according to Lockheed Martin Corporation. In fact, the Clinton administration acquired more JDAMs than expected by utilizing the Federal Acquisition Streamlining Act to enable the Defense Department to purchase JDAMs as commercial items, removing many regulations and reports normally required for every lot purchased. By abandoning those regulations and reports, 85% of JDAM is built using COTS (commercial off the shelf) equipment. Each JDAM cost less than half the predicted cost, and time spent in development was reduced by a third. The first JDAMs dropped in war were dropped in 1999, near the end of Clinton's time in office. To blame him for the shortage of JDAMs seems a bit unusual, as his administration acquired them faster, cheaper, and in greater numbers than originally planned, and dropped fewer than 700 of them while in power.

Post by **Vympel** » 2004-01-15 01:33am

Axis Kast wrote: I also question why higher training standards and intensity bother you. We've still got an all-volunteer army, and we're not going to change that. Conscripts are expensive, inefficient, and anathema to the current U.S. vision of warmaking.

It's inefficient and anathema to the current US vision of warmaking, but it is not expensive. Volunteer forces are extremely expensive, because wages have to be higher to entice people to join, not to mention higher training costs etc etc. Conscription is cheaper- you get what you pay for, for the most part.

In a 'real' war (and I'm talking 'total war' now), though, volunteers would soon be wiped out, and it'd be back to conscription- there'd be little difference between a conscript and a volunteer then.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2004-01-15 02:04am

Conscripts don't really work in a modern, Western army because it takes so long to train people for all but the most menial duties in the military. You can't crew a submarine with conscripts and you certainly can't man an aircraft carrier.

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2004-01-15 03:46am

Of course it's best to have the right men for the job with the best training, but you need to replace the grunts with those conscipts and keep the basic training in. They may not be spec-ops, but they keep the military stocked and while it may seem cruel to send some poor sod out with the bare minimum training and basic equipment, that's warfare when you really get to it.

Not that I can foresee a return to that scenario like with WWI and II anytime in the future.