Questions about First Contact

[Admiral Drason]

I was woundering about a couple of things in First Contact.

First Star Fleet orders the Enterprise to patrole the nutral zone because of Picards prior experiance with the Borg. why in the hell would they do that? The borg are about to take over Earth. Wouldnt you think they would want all the ships you can get. I mean Star Fleet did it for some political thing. Politcis mean squat if your planet is controled by the Borg

Second Data says that it is highly unporable that the Romulans would invade at that time. Am I missing somthing? Wouldnt the Federation be a prime target if there fleet is off fighting the Borg?

What do you guys think because it seems to me that something's wrong with the Fedration if they dont want to send there best ship out to fight the Borg, and to be so stupid to think that an enemy wouldnt take advantage of what the Borg had done?

[Master of Ossus]

The excuse for Picard's absence is that they thought they had enough ships, already, to stop a Borg cube. One could, of course, easily point out the obvious parallel at Wolf 359.

As for the Romulan's unwillingness to invade, I have always just assumed that the Romulans wanted to keep the Federation as a buffer-state between them and the Borg, and that they were unwilling to expose their forces to Borg attack while SF was trying to fight a war for them.

[Akira]

1. Starfleet thought that Picards experiance with the Borg might cause him to do something dumb which would make the Federation lose the battle.
(How do I know that? They said it in the damn film, just before they had word that SF had engaged the Borg)
I don't see why they could not have just put Riker in command for the battle and had the UFP Flagship fighting. If the problem was Picard, then that would have worked.

The Fed would have been a prime target for the RSE, with the bulk of the UFP fleet from that area of space attacking the Borg, however the rommies would have been building their own defence fleet to deal with the Borg if the UFP lost. If the Borg take Earth, the rest of the UFP would follow and then the rest of the Alpha/Beta quads.
However, I don't see why the RSE did not attack the UFP after the borg had been killed. The Borg came into UFP space via DS5 and along quite close to the RSE-UFP border (which is why the E-E could get to Earth and the battle quite fast. Earth and the RSE border are not all that far apart. - none of this 3 day battle crap There is nothing anywhere to say that, or that the UFP lost 300 ships in the battle) Most of the UFP ships attacking the Borg had come fresh (with only hull, shields and weapons online) from the Sol Sector shipyards (at Earth and Mars) or from the RSE border defence fleet. (Which I think at that point was the 7th fleet, but need to go recheck my research) With most of that fleet damaged or lost, the RSE could have reached Earth and other core UFP planets with little UFP defence.

[Alyeska]

We already know that the Federation has several thousand ships. Now either they had the "bulk" of their fleet fighting the Borg and lost most of it, or they only had 40-60 ships.

Anyone want to finally agree as to whether or not it was less then a hundred or more then several hundred?

[Akira]

We already know that the Federation has several thousand ships. Now either they had the "bulk" of their fleet fighting the Borg and lost most of it, or they only had 40-60 ships.

Anyone want to finally agree as to whether or not it was less then a hundred or more then several hundred?

The bulk of their fleet near the RSE border at the time of the Borg attack. For all we know that was 300 ships. It could have been 1000 or 2000 ships. We don't know. We don't know how many ships were in the battle, we don't know how many ships were killed in the battle. All we know is what was shown just before the E-E got to the battle though to the Cube expolding. The only ship we know of that came to the battle from the other side of the UFP was the defiant. and for all we know, that could have been at Mars for a refit.

[Admiral Drason]

[quote="Akira"]1. Starfleet thought that Picards experiance with the Borg might cause him to do something dumb which would make the Federation lose the battle.
(How do I know that? They said it in the damn film, just before they had word that SF had engaged the Borg)


I know that. I still dont under stand why they couldnt send him in any way. I mean its the Borg. The Feddies fear it so much. Why not send there best ship with there best captain regradless of what he might do. From what I get most Feddies piss there pants at the thought of the Borg so they might run away. It doesnt matter what they might do because if you make tactical decisons on what might happen then you probably wont ever ingage the enemy at all.

The Borg were really close to Earth when the Enterprise arived, so I assume that alot of ships were destroyed along the way. I had that on mind when I asked about the RSE.

[Vympel]

Why wasn't the Enterprise there? Bullshit plothole:

1: Picard had already dealt with his Borg issues in "I, Borg" (the episode with Hugh IIRC)
2: It's a Sovereign-class Starship, the Federation flagship, the most advanced ship in the fleet. If Picard is so dangerous, DUH: LET RIKER TAKE COMMAND!

[Alyeska]

Riker isn't a very good choice. I don't think SF likes him very much anymore thanks to what he did in Generations. His brilliant tactical command lost the Flagship of the Federation to a 20 year old BoP that missed with half their shots.

[Master of Ossus]

We already know that the Federation has several thousand ships. Now either they had the "bulk" of their fleet fighting the Borg and lost most of it, or they only had 40-60 ships.

Anyone want to finally agree as to whether or not it was less then a hundred or more then several hundred?

You imply that it either had to be less than one hundred or more than several hundred or a thousand. That is a false dillema.

[Patrick Degan]

1. Why did Starfleet send away Picard and the Enterprise to patrol the Romulan border just as they were expecting a Borg attack on Earth?

Answer: Bullshit Plot Device™ so that Picard can be the White Knight riding in to Earth's rescue in the very nick of time.

2. Why wouldn't the Romulans invade the UFP with the fleet busy with the Borg?

Answer: So that Data could say that it was unlikely, so that the movie could make a big show of Picard defying his idiotic orders to rush to Earth's rescue as the White Knight. This is combination with the Bullshit Plot Device™ is what is usually known as Plot Convenience Theatre.

Of course, in the context of the ST fictional world, the explanation is that Starfleet Command is stacked with imbeciles as a result of an otherwise and probably at one time logical policy of promoting the idiots off the command decks so as to leave the larger number of officers with functional brain matter in the field.

Sadly, it seems this policy was implemented without anybody figuring out a mechanism to maintain at least a minimal level of competence at Fleet HQ to keep things from getting too fucked up. By the time of the Second Borg Attack, there is now no check or balance on this runaway Peter Principle mechanism which has lowered the IQ at HQ into the realm of negative imaginary numbers.

[Vympel]

Riker isn't a very good choice. I don't think SF likes him very much anymore thanks to what he did in Generations. His brilliant tactical command lost the Flagship of the Federation to a 20 year old BoP that missed with half their shots.

Argh forgot about that- Generations was such a horrid film that I used a mental block to forget- but let's return:

1- The Bird of Prey opens fire with two photon torpedoes, which bypass the shields and strike the engineering section

2- Riker orders "lock phasers and return fire": why order "lock phasers"? Is Worf such an idiot that he needs Riker to tell him to make sure he acquires the target before he fires? "Fire phasers" would've sufficed.

3- The Enterprise-D returns fire with a ventral saucer shot. Ineffectual. This is where Riker becomes an uber-pussy (in the film, he's already a pussy in TNG because of his total lack of desire to take his own command). Instead of staying there and SLUGGING IT OUT he turns the Enterprise on its TAIL and RUNS LIKE A LITTLE GIRL where he could've just fired a spread of photon torpedoes ("The Arsenal of Freedom" shows that the Galaxy-class can let off more than one at a time if it wants to) and continued the phaser fire until he blew that Bird of Prey away.

4- The Enterprise-D is under continuous fire by the Bird of Prey- which is quite poorly taking disruptor shots, and incredibly, does not use its rear-firing torpedo tube, or its various rear facing phaser strips (4 with line of sight IIRC) the ENTIRE time.

5- Instead, Riker comes up with a convoluted solution to the problem via the magic of Treknobabble by setting off the BoP's cloaking device and then firing a single torpedo that destroys the target. Unfortunately, due to his incompetence, the Enterprise-D suffers a coolant leak, the warp core breaches after saucer sep, and it's bye bye to a Galaxy-class vessel- what a FIASCO

In summary: excellent point Alyeska- clearly the First Officer wasn't worth a damn in the view of SF.

[Ted C]

First Star Fleet orders the Enterprise to patrole the nutral zone because of Picards prior experiance with the Borg. why in the hell would they do that? The borg are about to take over Earth. Wouldnt you think they would want all the ships you can get. I mean Star Fleet did it for some political thing. Politcis mean squat if your planet is controled by the Borg

I don't think anyone made and explicit statements, but the impression I got was that Starfleet didn't trust Picard in a battle with the Borg because he had once been assimilated. I think they suspected that the Borg might be able to reassert their control over him.

Second Data says that it is highly unporable that the Romulans would invade at that time. Am I missing somthing? Wouldnt the Federation be a prime target if there fleet is off fighting the Borg?

I rather doubt that the Romulans would like to see a major Borg power base develop in the Alpha Quadrant. If they successfully assimilated Earth, the Borg would be in a very defensible position: they would have just taken the Federations largest population and industrial bases for their own. No, the Romulans won't attack the Federation while the Federation is fighting off the Borg. Right after the Borg attack is a different story.

[Patrick Degan]

Riker isn't a very good choice. I don't think SF likes him very much anymore thanks to what he did in Generations. His brilliant tactical command lost the Flagship of the Federation to a 20 year old BoP that missed with half their shots.

Argh forgot about that- Generations was such a horrid film that I used a mental block to forget- but let's return:

1- The Bird of Prey opens fire with two photon torpedoes, which bypass the shields and strike the engineering section

2- Riker orders "lock phasers and return fire": why order "lock phasers"? Is Worf such an idiot that he needs Riker to tell him to make sure he acquires the target before he fires? "Fire phasers" would've sufficed.

3- The Enterprise-D returns fire with a ventral saucer shot. Ineffectual. This is where Riker becomes an uber-pussy (in the film, he's already a pussy in TNG because of his total lack of desire to take his own command). Instead of staying there and SLUGGING IT OUT he turns the Enterprise on its TAIL and RUNS LIKE A LITTLE GIRL where he could've just fired a spread of photon torpedoes ("The Arsenal of Freedom" shows that the Galaxy-class can let off more than one at a time if it wants to) and continued the phaser fire until he blew that Bird of Prey away.

4- The Enterprise-D is under continuous fire by the Bird of Prey- which is quite poorly taking disruptor shots, and incredibly, does not use its rear-firing torpedo tube, or its various rear facing phaser strips (4 with line of sight IIRC) the ENTIRE time.

5- Instead, Riker comes up with a convoluted solution to the problem via the magic of Treknobabble by setting off the BoP's cloaking device and then firing a single torpedo that destroys the target. Unfortunately, due to his incompetence, the Enterprise-D suffers a coolant leak, the warp core breaches after saucer sep, and it's bye bye to a Galaxy-class vessel- what a FIASCO

In summary: excellent point Alyeska- clearly the First Officer wasn't worth a damn in the view of SF.

Essentially, Riker just sat on his ass and let his ship get pounded to scrap. He did not employ the large arsenal at his command, and didn't even warp out of orbit to escape the bombardment he couldn't figure out how to prevent or counter. He didn't even try, or it just never occurred to him, to adjust the frequency of his shields to protect his ship. By any standard, he was grossly incompetent in command and should have drawn a court-martial for the loss of the Enterprise.

But then, the fact that he didn't even get a nasty note in his service jacket just sort of supports my theory regarding the runaway Peter Principle mechanism at Fleet HQ.

[Akira]

Riker isn't a very good choice. I don't think SF likes him very much anymore thanks to what he did in Generations. His brilliant tactical command lost the Flagship of the Federation to a 20 year old BoP that missed with half their shots.

Argh forgot about that- Generations was such a horrid film that I used a mental block to forget- but let's return:

1- The Bird of Prey opens fire with two photon torpedoes, which bypass the shields and strike the engineering section

2- Riker orders "lock phasers and return fire": why order "lock phasers"? Is Worf such an idiot that he needs Riker to tell him to make sure he acquires the target before he fires? "Fire phasers" would've sufficed.

3- The Enterprise-D returns fire with a ventral saucer shot. Ineffectual. This is where Riker becomes an uber-pussy (in the film, he's already a pussy in TNG because of his total lack of desire to take his own command). Instead of staying there and SLUGGING IT OUT he turns the Enterprise on its TAIL and RUNS LIKE A LITTLE GIRL where he could've just fired a spread of photon torpedoes ("The Arsenal of Freedom" shows that the Galaxy-class can let off more than one at a time if it wants to) and continued the phaser fire until he blew that Bird of Prey away.

4- The Enterprise-D is under continuous fire by the Bird of Prey- which is quite poorly taking disruptor shots, and incredibly, does not use its rear-firing torpedo tube, or its various rear facing phaser strips (4 with line of sight IIRC) the ENTIRE time.

5- Instead, Riker comes up with a convoluted solution to the problem via the magic of Treknobabble by setting off the BoP's cloaking device and then firing a single torpedo that destroys the target. Unfortunately, due to his incompetence, the Enterprise-D suffers a coolant leak, the warp core breaches after saucer sep, and it's bye bye to a Galaxy-class vessel- what a FIASCO

In summary: excellent point Alyeska- clearly the First Officer wasn't worth a damn in the view of SF.

Essentially, Riker just sat on his ass and let his ship get pounded to scrap. He did not employ the large arsenal at his command, and didn't even warp out of orbit to escape the bombardment he couldn't figure out how to prevent or counter. He didn't even try, or it just never occurred to him, to adjust the frequency of his shields to protect his ship. By any standard, he was grossly incompetent in command and should have drawn a court-martial for the loss of the Enterprise.

But then, the fact that he didn't even get a nasty note in his service jacket just sort of supports my theory regarding the runaway Peter Principle mechanism at Fleet HQ.

It would have been better if Worf killed Riker for being a dishonerable bastard, took command of the Enterprise and killed the BoP in one volloy.

[Vympel]

Exactly! You figure Worf would question the wisdom of immediately turning around after firing one phaser blast- hell Riker didn't even order Worf to continue firing.

Dereliction of duty.

[Alyeska]

Shit, Arsenal of Freedom, Best of Both Worlds, and Survivors are perfect examples of lots of firepower. Riker could have crushed that BoP in a single volley while only sustaining minor-moderate hull damage in return.

[Guest]

further evidence that SF are pussies
1) Riker can't use a ship optimimaly
2) SFC couldn't find it's own ass with out a spoter satelite and a science vessel
3) Fleet Deployments are woefully inadaquate

[Alyeska]

You ever think that maybe SF sent Riker to the Enterprise knowing that Riker's arogance would make him want to stay on the Enterprise so that he could eventually take command except that SF knew Picard would never allow such a foolish thing? If it weren't for Riker being on the Enterprise, he might have gotten a command by now.

[Admiral Drason]

Why would SF want to give Riker his own ship. He fucked up the E-D.

[Alyeska]

Why would SF want to give Riker his own ship. He fucked up the E-D.

Thats just it. Had Riker not been stationed on the E-D at first, he might have gotten his own command earlier then normal since he wouldn't want ti "wait" for Picard to leave the Enterprise.

[Evil Jerk]

But they're giving him a command in Nemesis, aren't they?
They still must think he's good (idiots), unless they're running REALLY short on captains.

[Patrick Degan]

But they're giving him a command in Nemesis, aren't they?

They still must think he's good (idiots), unless they're running REALLY short on captains.

But wait until he learns that the ship they're giving him has only a crew of five: a humanoid plant being, two cloned blondes, a hermaphrodite, and a cowardly robot cobbled together from spare parts. His new sector is a remote backwater under the authority of a Starfleet admiral knicknamed "The Head".

[Darth Wong]

OK, Riker is an idiot. I think that's been well-established by various incidents pointed out earlier in this thread.

So the real question becomes: was he unusually stupid by Starfleet standards, or was he actually an unusually good captain relative to the rest of their officer corps? Consider the fact that Jean-Luc "Don't shoot back" Picard was considered Starfleet's greatest captain.

[Alyeska]

OK, Riker is an idiot. I think that's been well-established by various incidents pointed out earlier in this thread.

So the real question becomes: was he unusually stupid by Starfleet standards, or was he actually an unusually good captain relative to the rest of their officer corps? Consider the fact that Jean-Luc "Don't shoot back" Picard was considered Starfleet's greatest captain.

Regardless Picard has shown more tactical skill then Riker. While unwilling to fight all the time, when he decided to fight he generally did a good job, far better then Riker.

I think Edward Jelico is more representative of the SF captains. Picard runs the Flagship and it has more diplomatic duties then most ships. Jelico was a tough as nails commanding officer who knew how to put rebellious officers in their place and seemed to have a good grasp of tactics and strategy. Maxwell is another good choice. Asside for his obvious break down, his tactical and strategic skills were far better then Picards.

[Evil Jerk]

I think Edward Jelico is more representative of the SF captains. Picard runs the Flagship and it has more diplomatic duties then most ships. Jelico was a tough as nails commanding officer who knew how to put rebellious officers in their place and seemed to have a good grasp of tactics and strategy. Maxwell is another good choice. Asside for his obvious break down, his tactical and strategic skills were far better then Picards.

Both Jellico and Maxwell seem to have been potrayed as not being the norm for Starfleet captains.
Maxwell was potrayed as a war mongering lunatic, even though he was 100% right, and the Enterprise crew seemed to react with horror at Jellico's naval discipline, suggesting that his style was not widely practised.