Australian PM claims public schools too politically correct

[Xon]

Howard slams public schools

Our PM, John Howard, actually made the statement on public TV:

"They feel that government schools have become too politically correct and too values-neutral,"

Looks like John Howard has chosen the next election issue and will demostate he can do something about it till the next election. The next election is in 2 years, but this issue isnt something to be taken on overnight.

[Col. Crackpot]

Parents now send almost 40 per cent of teenagers to private secondary schools, and one in three Australian children overall do not attend public schools.

holy fuck! Something must be seriously fucked up with your public school system if 40% bail out into private schools by the secondary level.

[Xon]

Parents now send almost 40 per cent of teenagers to private secondary schools, and one in three Australian children overall do not attend public schools.

holy fuck! Something must be seriously fucked up with your public school system if 40% bail out into private schools by the secondary level.

They are still a shit load better than american public schools. Its just the private schools are even better than the australian public schools.

Naturally the Teachers Union is up in arms over the PM's comments.

Also in my state, Western Australia, there is over 50% in private schools. This hasnt been an election issue, as private schools werent nearly as popular in the Eastern States(ie the rest of the Country).

Also you have to remember that our 'private' schools are a bit different.

They follow the exact same cources, report to the education departments subbodies, recieve government funding (currently less than private schools per student, but this looks to change), but are independently owned from the Government.

[Xon]

Also in addition:

Public/Private schools sit standardized tests for anyone aiming for tertiary education, controlled & managed by a goverment body.

Graduation is dependant on the scores of those standardized tests, for people sitting them.

[Col. Crackpot]

sounds like your spinning. In the US the private school attendance is roughly 10% (according to catholiceducation.org- the catholic church runs many of the private schools here). If public schools here lost 40% of the student body the system would be thrown into chaos. Second how can you say public schools are better in Australia when 40% of the population rejects them and opts to pay for private school when the suppoed great public schools are free?

[Rogue 9]

Down with political correctness!

[Mr Flibble]

sounds like your spinning. In the US the private school attendance is roughly 10% (according to catholiceducation.org- the catholic church runs many of the private schools here). If public schools here lost 40% of the student body the system would be thrown into chaos. Second how can you say public schools are better in Australia when 40% of the population rejects them and opts to pay for private school when the suppoed great public schools are free?

The are rejecting our piblic schools because our private schools produce better results. However standards in South Australian public schools seem to be a lot higher than those in the US. Most students in South Australia, sit the same exams (SACE: South Australian education certificate). Private school students, especially from the richer schools do better on average than the state schools, but the difference is not that great to be a problem. Although the grading system is set up to give those in state schools a slight advantage. Students doing SACE must complete certain required subjects such as Australian Studies.

The reason I think that the public school system here even with its problems is better than the US system is that the curriculum of the schools is in the hands of the department o education, and as such it is more focused on things which need to be taught, rather that appeasing 'soccer moms'.

Our system has not suddenly lost 40% of he student body, it has been a gradual process, so the system has largely been able to cope. Not that our public schools could do with some improvement.

As to John Howard making this an election issue. I doubt he will change much, as usual the federal government will promise big, since they know the states will oppose it on principle, and since education is mostly controlled by the states nothing will change and Howard can blame intransigent state governments from preventing him from doing what he wants, and thus not having to actually pay for it.

Personally I think that is one of the biggest problems with our education and health systems are due to the fact it is split between federal and state control, hence they each blame the other for the problems and do nothing to fix them. What needs to be done is for it to be put either wholly in federal hands (which the states would not allow) or wholly in state hands, which a can't afford it.So in short the system here is screwed.

[pellaeons_scion]

SACE...the most retarded concept in education ever to grace our schools. What a way to cultivate a culture of the average. When I went overseas and took my SACE papers to Canterbury in Christchurch, the looked at them with this blank stare, and asked me to produce something that actually had a grade on it. Fortunately I did have some tertiary-level scores from a few other courses. But it did go to show how 'valid' that system is outside of SA. It isnt.

Howards comments are typical of that mentall-deficent gnome. Once more he proves that he couldnt run a corner store let alone a country. He treats education in this place like something that can be ignored at will. In gets me very angry to think of that, because its very plain to see how this attitude will affect further generations. Seems to me all our schools are currently good for is pumping out worker for fastfood joints.

"They feel that government schools have become too politically correct and too values-neutral,"

Value-Neutral? WTF does that mean? Does he even think before he speaks? But then again, I forgot, Im talking about howard. Politcally correct is one thing, but when did it become a schools responsibility to teach values? Funny, I though that was what parents were for.This is more christian-centric bullshit, and needs to be stamped out before it grows further.

Asshole. Latham might not be the best, but he has gotta be better than this fucktard

[Stofsk]

...Asshole. Latham might not be the best, but he has gotta be better than this fucktard

I wouldn't go that far.

[pellaeons_scion]

Maybe, but Im so disillusioned with our current crop of pollies, that I reckon my socks could do a better job.

[Mr Flibble]

SACE...the most retarded concept in education ever to grace our schools.

Thats why I did the International Baccelaureate, much better recognized, plus you get a cool diploma, and the unis here think it is really hard, so they give you credit for subjects.

Unfotunately I think that Latham is our best option at the moment, especially for students, at least labour traditionally is supposed to look out for students, Howard has already done a lot of damage to the tertiary system. Thanks to all the baby boomers getting old, pensioners are going to get the most attention, and since students aren't a large votin block we are going to be screwed, as always.

[Stofsk]

Unfotunately I think that Latham is our best option at the moment,

Assuming he retains leadership, and Labor doesn't destroy him, like it did Beazley and Creen.

and since students aren't a large votin block we are going to be screwed, as always.

So what else is new?

While I will not jump on the "Blame Howard!" bandwagon, I do think you've got a point here. Students always get screwed.

[pellaeons_scion]

On that Ill agree. No matter who is in power, education, and students in general seem to get the short end of the stick.

I dont get it. Why not actually put money into education, actually formulate a decent and relevant curriculum and turn out some students to be proud of, and then possibly benefit Australia by having skilled and educated workers that might contribute great things to their field, and thus benefiting Australia?

This penny pinching is counter-productive. At some point I believe the Governement is going to have to start to think about Australia's future rather than their own petty agendas, getting into office, or merely balancing the books.

[Crown]

Labour isn't going to get rid of Latham any time soon ... they boosted up 10 (?) or someother ridiculous number of points in the polls the second the Beasely and Creen scrag-fight got put down.

[Stofsk]

This penny pinching is counter-productive. At some point I believe the Governement is going to have to start to think about Australia's future rather than their own petty agendas, getting into office, or merely balancing the books.

I think the problem is summarised quite well in your sig. No-one cares enough about this problem to do anything about it, and our politicians suck.

[Crown]

This penny pinching is counter-productive. At some point I believe the Governement is going to have to start to think about Australia's future rather than their own petty agendas, getting into office, or merely balancing the books.

I think the problem is summarised quite well in your sig. No-one cares enough about this problem to do anything about it, and our politicians suck.

It isn't education that is the biggest issue for me (obviously now that I have graduated), our tertiary system is fantastic, subsidised a full 70% ish, and the rest we only have to pay off if we make more than $25,000 a year.

Compare this to Student Loans in the States, where you have to start paying off the second you finish school regardless if you have found a job or not, as is my understanding of the system.

While I certainly do not like to see an increase in the HECS debt, as any debt is just a weight around a young persons neck, it does become somewhat necessary depending on economic conditions.

What I am deeply fustrated is the lack of work for graduates, which usually results in a brain drain in Oz. This is what I have yet to hear from any polititian make a statement on. Which really pisses me off, as you might be able to tell.

[Stuart Mackey]

SACE...the most retarded concept in education ever to grace our schools. What a way to cultivate a culture of the average. When I went overseas and took my SACE papers to Canterbury in Christchurch,

You went to Canterbury? Holly hell, I live in Christchurch...what were you doing at Canty?

[Stark]

It's JOHN HOWARD! No need to be surprised or alarmed; its business as usual!

As much as I've heard about bad pube schools in the US, I find it hard to imagine a worse school than Macgregor high. But do all countries use are dumbass bell-curve OP distribution? Is it recalibrated every year like ours?

I was having a bizarre chat with a friend of mine, and he pointed out that in the 19th century the public school system in jolly ol England was designed with the stated intent of creating skilled yet ignorant workers. Someone you could trust with the books, in the 'no error' sense and the 'no embezzeling' sense. This fully encapsulates my experience with the public education system; all appearances, focussed on the next exam, but no depth, no understanding. I learnt more from my dad than I did in highschool; he's a tradesman and I took a science-heavy course.

But, I'm glad I didn't go to a private school. I might wear polo shirts! With the collar up!

Christchurch?? Thats my hometown! Last time I was there, I was surprised the Riccarton 'mall' was so small... *sigh* I've been planning on moving back for a while for years... *pines*

[Col. Crackpot]

Compare this to Student Loans in the States, where you have to start paying off the second you finish school regardless if you have found a job or not, as is my understanding of the system.

Direct Loans gives you six months to find a job before you need to begen repayment. You can also defer your loans for later repayment simply by taking masters level courses. They are also very flexable about missing payments if you speak with them first. The'll just put your account into forbearance, but will erase the record of it once you resume payment. Also the Interest rates are really low because they are government subsidized.

[Flash]

As much as I've heard about bad pube schools in the US, I find it hard to imagine a worse school than Macgregor high.

Rubbish. You could have gone to Woodridge. Or Mabel Park.


The problem we have with our pollies at the moment is really 'Who is a viable alternative to John Howard?' Latham has the best chance, but I think his hopes have been shot thanks to the recent Labor power struggles and infighting.

[Crown]

Compare this to Student Loans in the States, where you have to start paying off the second you finish school regardless if you have found a job or not, as is my understanding of the system.

Direct Loans gives you six months to find a job before you need to begen repayment. You can also defer your loans for later repayment simply by taking masters level courses. They are also very flexable about missing payments if you speak with them first. The'll just put your account into forbearance, but will erase the record of it once you resume payment. Also the Interest rates are really low because they are government subsidized.

Thanks for the clarification, after all I my source was a rather drunk (and bitter) US student at a party I met, so you can see why I put the qualifier there.

Also how much dept are we talking about? The Aus Government pays for about 70% of our tertiary tuition up front leaving us only 30% to pay off (I think mine is around $25,000-$27,000), where interests rates are also comparitively low as well (I think it's tied to inflation). The difference is that we only have to pay off when, and only when, we make over a certain amount in a year (roughly $25,000).

Should we never make this amount, we will never have to pay the HECS debt.

[pellaeons_scion]

You went to Canterbury? Holly hell, I live in Christchurch...what were you doing at Canty?

Heh, following my heart...that kinda thing. Ended up in ChCh. I loved it there. I was doing a BA in history. But life kinda went haywire and I had to return.

I know aussies bag NZ, but I love it, and one day Ill return given the chance. And Riccarton mall was small when I was there too

You know its funny what you say about the HECS debt. earning 27k seems like a lot, but it is reached pretty quickly. But even then its not that much of an imposition, so long as you set up your taxation properly. Mine generally gets covered by that, so even though it still takes a while to pay off, I dont really notice it

[weemadando]

My girlfriend is training to be a teacher, and she regularly tells me horror stories of whats allowed and what isn't...

For example:

You can no longer tell a student: "You're wrong." You have to say something like: "We value your input, but your answer is incorrect in this situation."

So when Little Susan says that 2+2=5 we can't say: "That's not right.", just incase we cause them permanent psychological damage, instead we have to coddle them and make them feel secure in their stupidity.

Personally I find this kind of thing offensive, and to add to it, the public school systems have a "question everything" policy when it comes to learning, but the teachers are still a complete authority "because I told you so."

Add to this a focus on apologist and revisionist history and you have a school system, that though it creates a high degree of educational ability also creates moral neutrals.

[pellaeons_scion]

Kinda reminds me of the Neutral planet from an episode of futurama. The president was asked a question and his response was "I have no definable or clear thoughts on that matter".

Why do they do it? Are they just out to create mindless drones? And as for the example of the kid, have we reached the point where correcting a childs mistakes is now a bad thing? Are we supposed to let people believe and think whatever they want, no matter how blatently wrong it is? This is insane...

And "because I told you so" is the greatest cop out of all time. Your a teacher dammit, explain the why of it! </rant>

[Stuart Mackey]

Christchurch?? Thats my hometown! Last time I was there, I was surprised the Riccarton 'mall' was so small... *sigh* I've been planning on moving back for a while for years... *pines*

Nice to see a fellow Kiwi..even if you do sport an Aussie accent I think that The Palms mall in Shirley is bigger than Riccarton now..but dont quote me on that.