Annoying shit in otherwise great games

Post by **Vympel** » 2004-01-23 12:43am

Was just playing Medieval: Total War, and got the shits. To set the scene:

It's 1166, and my English Crusader Army (120 Feudal Knights, 200 Feudal Seargants, 120 Feudal Men-at-Arms, 40 Mounted Seargants, 120 Archers, 40 Hobilars,120 Highland Clansmen an 120 Gallowglasses) shows up at it's objective, Antioch. Defending are around ~2000 Egyptians, led by the Sultan.

All my men have much better armor and swords than they do, and their force is primarily an obscene amount of useless peasants, a few camel warriors of various types, archers, and a smattering of Saracen Infantry, headed up by the Ghulam Cavalry of the Sultan.

At the start of the battle I deploy the Hobilars and Mounted Seargants to the edges of the field and during the battle move them behind their force so as to act as pursuit troops when they rout (and they will rout- all peasants are good for ...). Archers move up and start peppering their best troops (I don't have English Longbowmen yet, they must come in High Period or something); the enemy general loses patience and sends in Camels and some Saharan Cavalry (forgot about them ...) to ride down the archers. Feudal Seargants deal with them before they can hurt my archers. Feudal Men-at-arms, seargants, gallowglasses and highland clansmen attack their peasant mass, who quickly rout. The Feudal Knights (and the Royal Knight contingent led by Prince Edward, my general) are so far, uncommitted.

Their Sultan turns tail and runs with the peasants, but his reinforcements start to arrive and he rallies. I tell the Knights to charge his reinforcements coming onto the field, and him, so when they rout they'll quickly run off again without having a chance to rally. The Sultan is 73 years old. What happens? His Ghulam bodyguards get slaughtered, but somehow, this 73 year old fart manages to kill some 10 Feudal Knights about a quarter of his age, while outnumbered 40:1 mind you, and then ESCAPES?! What is it with these invincible monarchs? The chances of killing one are bloody miniscule!

Rant off.

Hotfoot · Post by **Hotfoot** » 2004-01-23 12:56am

Not just monarchs, whoever is the general. The reasoning is such:

In a long battle, once the general is dead or captured, army morale goes into the shitter, even for reinforcements. As a result, a stray longbow volley can potentially fuck up a long engangement by killing the general too early.

It is annoying, especially when a fucking peasent unit becomes a demigod of war and slaughters a dozen or so good men, while he's the last man alive defending a castle I just beat the shit out of. Still, it's all worth it when the random monarch general gets crushed by a catapult attack in the first volley of the battle.

The welsh longbowmen are province-specific. Anything else I'm not sure of.

And if you want to see an absolutely insane fucking battle, allow me to introduce you to the Golden Whores, from my Byzantine game last year. Six hour long fucking insane bloodbath.

The other insane thing from Medieval was the mini-game they put in, "Whack-a-Pope". Somehow he always manages to come back with an insanely stronger army, even if the only catholic place left is Sicily. Must be connections to the mob. Fuckers.

Ace Pace · Post by **Ace Pace** » 2004-01-23 01:00am

Welcome to a fact of medieval.... when in meelee combat, a unit can only engage with 1 other unit. I.E out of all your 40 knights, only 2 can actully fight the king at once, while he can attack all of them, go figure. However this does not count for ranged combat, so the best thing for taking down kings and etc, is archers, who can use all their arrows, and then the enemy king is at the same disavantage.

Post by **Vympel** » 2004-01-23 01:17am

Hotfoot wrote:Not just monarchs, whoever is the general. The reasoning is such:

In a long battle, once the general is dead or captured, army morale goes into the shitter, even for reinforcements. As a result, a stray longbow volley can potentially fuck up a long engangement by killing the general too early.

I don't see what's wrong with that- after all- anyone remember the Battle of Hastings? The other player shouldn't be so stupid as to put the monarch in serious danger in the first place.

It is annoying, especially when a fucking peasent unit becomes a demigod of war and slaughters a dozen or so good men, while he's the last man alive defending a castle I just beat the shit out of. Still, it's all worth it when the random monarch general gets crushed by a catapult attack in the first volley of the battle.

I hardly ever bring catapults/mangonels and such- their chronic missing is annoying, I figure it's better to just get two more regular units.

The welsh longbowmen are province-specific. Anything else I'm not sure of.

When you play as the English (starting from Early Period), Wales has 3 units of Longbowmen- I bribed them, built up the province, but no longbowmen. They must be High Period.

And if you want to see an absolutely insane fucking battle, allow me to introduce you to the Golden Whores, from my Byzantine game last year. Six hour long fucking insane bloodbath.

Six hours long? How'd that happen?

The other insane thing from Medieval was the mini-game they put in, "Whack-a-Pope". Somehow he always manages to come back with an insanely stronger army, even if the only catholic place left is Sicily. Must be connections to the mob. Fuckers.

Yeah, it's always best if you're playing a conquest game (I'm playing glorious achievements so as to avoid the trouble) to just leave Rome alone until everyone else is gone- it's too much trouble leaving a huge army in Rome to try and prevent a Papist resurgence every few decades.

HemlockGrey · Post by **HemlockGrey** » 2004-01-23 01:53am

Now, is it me, or is Zeal always, always, always at like 20-30%? Is it really worth it to invest time and money in bringing it up?

Hotfoot · Post by **Hotfoot** » 2004-01-23 01:54am

Vympel wrote:I don't see what's wrong with that- after all- anyone remember the Battle of Hastings? The other player shouldn't be so stupid as to put the monarch in serious danger in the first place.

The other player is often the AI, and AI, as much as we would like it to be otherwise, can be just plain stupid sometimes.

I hardly ever bring catapults/mangonels and such- their chronic missing is annoying, I figure it's better to just get two more regular units.

I bring them in as the situation demands it. They can be quite handy at times.

When you play as the English (starting from Early Period), Wales has 3 units of Longbowmen- I bribed them, built up the province, but no longbowmen. They must be High Period.

I'd have to check my notes. You could be right, but that doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

Six hours long? How'd that happen?

Lots of running away, rallying, and reinforcements. We're talking 18,641 men under Ogadai Khan, and 11,909 men under my command. I stopped the fucking Golden Horde's primary army the year they showed up, then proceeded to bitchslap them on a regular basis until a stray catapult shot ended their leader's life ten seconds into the final battle, after which point I bribed all of their remaining armies and had them garrison Russia for me whilst my armies steamrolled over Europe and Northern Africa.

Yeah, it's always best if you're playing a conquest game (I'm playing glorious achievements so as to avoid the trouble) to just leave Rome alone until everyone else is gone- it's too much trouble leaving a huge army in Rome to try and prevent a Papist resurgence every few decades.

Yeah. The messed up thing is that their original armies suck...then they just get better and better, for no good reason. Oh well..just let them keep sucking until it's time for the end. I made it something of a priority to retake Rome, for the glory of the Empire and all that. You know how it is.

HemlockGrey · Post by **HemlockGrey** » 2004-01-23 01:58am

Also, I would have liked being able to actually fight ON the city walls.

Hotfoot · Post by **Hotfoot** » 2004-01-23 01:59am

HemlockGrey wrote:Also, I would have liked being able to actually fight ON the city walls.

Rome.....

Chardok · Post by **Chardok** » 2004-01-23 07:18am

I suck at that game. I ALWAYS (Especially in MP) No matter how much zeal I put in, Get routed. I try flanking, ranged attack with a cavalry charge, brute force number-smashing, and as soon as 1/4 of my shit is dead, my guys run like pansy-assed Covenant grunts. That makes me have a bad happy apple Carbeurator.

Post by **Vympel** » 2004-01-23 08:09am

Zeal? It's Valor that matters, chum.

Just checked a Unit FAQ, Longbowmen are High & Late period only units.

It would be nice if Byzantium's units didn't become more quaint and obsolete as time went on- I don't understand why they crippled the Empire so. Only through a lot of upgrading could I keep the Kataphraktoi and Byzantine Infantry competitive.

Chardok · Post by **Chardok** » 2004-01-23 08:17am

Right, That's what I meant, It's been a long time since I played, it was wahtever stat I needed in my general to PREVENT my pussies from running away. nothing seemed to work, I relized that Genre was not my cup of tea and moved on. I liked it, though. even though I sucked balls.

2000AD · Post by **2000AD** » 2004-01-23 10:47am

Most annoying thing i found in a great game was how half Life turned into a jump puzzle game at the end!

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2004-01-23 12:33pm

Fast Attack, Sierra's 1996ish submarine game. Great game, except it crashed a lot. Took 3-4 years to finally get a patch out

Hotfoot · Post by **Hotfoot** » 2004-01-23 12:46pm

Chardok wrote:Right, That's what I meant, It's been a long time since I played, it was wahtever stat I needed in my general to PREVENT my pussies from running away. nothing seemed to work, I relized that Genre was not my cup of tea and moved on. I liked it, though. even though I sucked balls.

Who were you playing as?

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2004-01-23 12:52pm

People I can't kill but do nothing to advance he story

Chardok · Post by **Chardok** » 2004-01-23 12:55pm

Hotfoot wrote:
Chardok wrote:Right, That's what I meant, It's been a long time since I played, it was wahtever stat I needed in my general to PREVENT my pussies from running away. nothing seemed to work, I relized that Genre was not my cup of tea and moved on. I liked it, though. even though I sucked balls.
Who were you playing as?

I believe I was Swiss for awhile, and Turkish after that. I used cavalry, Swiss pikemen, every combination I could think of. My archers are usually the first to bolt. (No pun intended.)

Hotfoot · Post by **Hotfoot** » 2004-01-23 01:09pm

Chardok wrote:I believe I was Swiss for awhile, and Turkish after that. I used cavalry, Swiss pikemen, every combination I could think of. My archers are usually the first to bolt. (No pun intended.)

Archers tend to run when faced with hand to hand combat. The trick is not to let them get in to hand to hand combat in the first place, because they tend to suck at it. Always keep them behind a line of other troops, pikemen or infantry. Also, make sure your flanks are covered. If you let yourself become surrounded, you're hosed.

I never played much online...I always got the feeling I'd get owned by the people who play regularly. But basic tactics will keep you alive in the regular campaign. Of course, the generals help a lot. If you must put your archers in the front ranks, have infantry right behind them to come out the moment the enemy send something your way..

Smiling Bandit · Post by **Smiling Bandit** » 2004-01-23 01:56pm

I once was playing Shogun:TW, when I sent an army after Oda Nobunaga. Not his army, just him and his 3 horsemen allies. For no good reason they were right out in front. I charged them with horsemen, monks, nodachi samurai - after I pelted them with every arrow I had.

My men were slaughtered. They killed Oda's guard easily, but Oda himself proved unbreakable. He killed several hundred men by himself. FInally his army came charging over the ridg in a slow-movig wave and engulfed my army. My troops all broke and ran.

I reloaded the game and attacked again, fully intending to simply kill is army this time.

Random arrow took out Oda in one shot.

McNum · Post by **McNum** » 2004-01-23 03:32pm

The one thing I really hate is when otherwise great action games suddenly has a stealth level. A perfect example is Jedi Outcast. I have litterally just taken out half a garrison Stormtroopers at little personal risk, and now I have to avoid them or someone may press the big bad Game Over button? What were they thinking? (I then proceeded to camp said big bad Game Over button and make as much noise as possible to lure them there... Not how it was supposed to be done, but highly effective and slightly amusing.)

Really, if the game don't have a dedicated stealth engine with enemy AI built for this, don't try to force it. It always brings the game down.

Hotfoot · Post by **Hotfoot** » 2004-01-23 04:02pm

McNum wrote:The one thing I really hate is when otherwise great action games suddenly has a stealth level. A perfect example is Jedi Outcast. I have litterally just taken out half a garrison Stormtroopers at little personal risk, and now I have to avoid them or someone may press the big bad Game Over button? What were they thinking? (I then proceeded to camp said big bad Game Over button and make as much noise as possible to lure them there... Not how it was supposed to be done, but highly effective and slightly amusing.)

Really, if the game don't have a dedicated stealth engine with enemy AI built for this, don't try to force it. It always brings the game down.

Um, actually, the way to go about that level is to use force persuasion against, like, a wall or something. Remember what Obi-Wan Kenobi did on the Death Star in A New Hope on his way to the tractor beam controls? Same sort of thing. The stormtroopers turn and walk off that way, giving you time to sneak around them. IIRC, it's documented in the power description in the game.

Granted, it's not Thief or Deus Ex, but it was rather well done, though it could have been hinted at a little better (though they did boost persuasion right beforehand).

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2004-01-24 11:02pm

McNum wrote:The one thing I really hate is when otherwise great action games suddenly has a stealth level. A perfect example is Jedi Outcast. I have litterally just taken out half a garrison Stormtroopers at little personal risk, and now I have to avoid them or someone may press the big bad Game Over button? What were they thinking? (I then proceeded to camp said big bad Game Over button and make as much noise as possible to lure them there... Not how it was supposed to be done, but highly effective and slightly amusing.)

Really, if the game don't have a dedicated stealth engine with enemy AI built for this, don't try to force it. It always brings the game down.

Any game with failure conditions other than your death are walking a fine line, in my opinion. Rebel Strike is the Whore of fricking Babylon is this regard; I don't give a rats what happens to anyone else; the game allows me to be a god who can finish any mission alone, so who cares? I feel that failure conditions are lazy designers method of making a game hard, like the Evil Evil Escort mission so common in console actioners. You (alone) have to guard a pile of useless slow people against an entire army. usually losing 5% is enough to fail. Or the Steath levels, where even tho you're hardcore, loaded with firepower, as soon as some idiot sees you its all over. I would much prefer it if they called it in, the sighting was confirmed, your ship was destroyed, you had to complete your mission against alert enemies and solve the transport problem later.

On the other hand, Hitman, DW3/4 etc allow you to totally mess things up, but fight/think/luck your way to victory anyway. I think it's important that these games have large, sprawling levels, unlike alot of games with small, limited levels which are part of a larger battle you can't participate in. GRRR.

Noone should be able to declare their game has a 'campaign' mode unless there is a campaign engine. Stringing a bunch of levels together worked for Golden Axe, but its pretty lame these days.

mauldooku · Post by **mauldooku** » 2004-01-24 11:48pm

LOTR-Return of the King. While it certainly isn't a great game, it's a decent one.

Now, onto the Battle of Pellenor Fields level.

Imagine Orcs. Lots of Orcs. First, you massacre 80. Ok, not that bad. Owning this pansy level so far.

Then the first oliphaunt comes. Oh nos, Merry and Eowyn are for some reason standing in the middle of the battle, doing nothing but showing off their poly count, while the lumbering beasts plods toward them! Your mission, of course, is to bring it down. Problem: You can only do it on top of a ledge. There are two there, but to get to one you'll have to get through another 30 orcs. Then, you sure as hell better have guessed correctly which ledge the Oliphaunt is hanging around, because you can't even hit the sucker off of one of them. Oh, and did I mention that several more of these come, right after each other? That the Orcs respawn? That if Eowyn and Merry start taking damage, they die rather quickly? That if an Oliphaunt reaches them, you lose? That The Witch King comes and attacks them on his fell beast later on?

*Sigh*

McNum · Post by **McNum** » 2004-01-25 12:12am

Stark wrote: Any game with failure conditions other than your death are walking a fine line, in my opinion. Rebel Strike is the Whore of fricking Babylon is this regard; I don't give a rats what happens to anyone else; the game allows me to be a god who can finish any mission alone, so who cares? I feel that failure conditions are lazy designers method of making a game hard, like the Evil Evil Escort mission so common in console actioners. You (alone) have to guard a pile of useless slow people against an entire army. usually losing 5% is enough to fail. Or the Steath levels, where even tho you're hardcore, loaded with firepower, as soon as some idiot sees you its all over. I would much prefer it if they called it in, the sighting was confirmed, your ship was destroyed, you had to complete your mission against alert enemies and solve the transport problem later.

On the other hand, Hitman, DW3/4 etc allow you to totally mess things up, but fight/think/luck your way to victory anyway. I think it's important that these games have large, sprawling levels, unlike alot of games with small, limited levels which are part of a larger battle you can't participate in. GRRR.

Noone should be able to declare their game has a 'campaign' mode unless there is a campaign engine. Stringing a bunch of levels together worked for Golden Axe, but its pretty lame these days.

I don't mind when failure conditions are something else that the death of the protagonist, but it has to be like that for most of the game. Like in Metal Gear Solid 2. If you play it on Extreme you can set "Discovery = Game Over" at the beginning. Which doesn't really make that big a difference on that difficulty. Or a reasonable timer is ok, too (like 10 minutes to do something that optimally can be done in 6 minutes or so.) In a game like Zelda: Wind Waker there's a stealth part, too. It's still annoying, but if you're found it's not game over. Link just gets thrown into a cell (which is conviniently close to a Piece of Heart).

That's how it should be done. The Jedi Outcast level is nearly rediculous. I'm a big bad Jedi who's already killed over half of the base's defenders. Guess what would happen should the rest be alerted? I'd either take them all, or die trying. And that's where the game over should be.

HemlockGrey · Post by **HemlockGrey** » 2004-01-25 02:27am

Nothing is more annoying than, in Stronghold, building up an impenatrable fortress, sending forth a massive army (thereby emptying your castle except for archers and spearmen on the walls) only to have a maceman strike force slip inside a 1 block opening in your wall that was obscured by some rocks and thereby slaughter all your peasants and wipe out half your buildings.

RedImperator · Post by **RedImperator** » 2004-01-25 03:08am

GTA Vice City: Tommy Vercetti can fly headlong off a motorcycle at 100 miles per hour right into the windshield of another car and take 10% damage, but he drowns in two feet of water. That's just frigging annoying.