Middle East Transformation, Will it Work?

revprez · Post by **revprez** » 2004-01-23 08:05pm

The Aliens argues in an OT thread: "The States are trying to convert [the Iraqis? Arabs?] to democracy, but how can you show that it's going to be a lasting change, where the Crusades failed to convert them to Christianity and the Israelis failed to convert them to Judaism[?]"

Takers?

Rev Prez

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2004-01-23 08:17pm

Wow... that may well be the worst false analogy fallacy I've ever read. The Crusades and Israel made NO effort at converting the Arabs RELIGIOUSLY, whereas the Coalition is trying to convert the Arabs in terms of FORM OF GOVERNMENT. Both the Crusades and Israel simply pushed aside the Arabs living in and around the current State of Israel, and made no effort whatsoever to convert them to Christianity or Judaism, respectively. This new effort is designed to work with the Arabs to convert them to democracy from totalitarianism. There is a HUGE difference, there, and while I'm not sure that the change will be permanent or effective, the claim you cited presented a LUDICROUS argument.

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2004-01-23 08:18pm

At what point have the Jews tried to convert anyone to anything? One of the upsides of Judaism is that it lacks the "everyone must convert" mentality.

Anyway, I think it depends on our resolve. We have to be willing to put our foot down and say "no" to any attempts to instate the Sharia in Iraq, even if it will be seen as a violation of religious freedom, or whatever the hell Muslims call practicing their male sexual disorder disguised as a religion. We have to make Iraqi government more than just the least disgusting Arab government in the Middle East.

Andrew J. · Post by **Andrew J.** » 2004-01-23 08:20pm

Of course not. Nothing ever works in the Middle East!

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2004-01-23 08:23pm

Well, we are trying to marginalize fundamentalist Islam as a political force. It may not be the same thing as the Crusades (it's not even close, in fact), but it's still trying to fight an extremist religion.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2004-01-23 08:24pm

Andrew J. wrote:Of course not. Nothing ever works in the Middle East!

Smart bombs seem to work just fine.

revprez · Post by **revprez** » 2004-01-23 08:27pm

America's Role in Nation-Building. Right here.

Sarevok · Post by **Sarevok** » 2004-01-24 12:12am

Well, we are trying to marginalize fundamentalist Islam as a political force. It may not be the same thing as the Crusades (it's not even close, in fact), but it's still trying to fight an extremist religion.

Except that the crusaders are not fighting for christianity. If they do they will screw up the war on terrorism forever.

Sarevok · Post by **Sarevok** » 2004-01-24 12:15am

Anyway, I think it depends on our resolve. We have to be willing to put our foot down and say "no" to any attempts to instate the Sharia in Iraq, even if it will be seen as a violation of religious freedom, or whatever the hell Muslims call practicing their male sexual disorder disguised as a religion. We have to make Iraqi government more than just the least disgusting Arab government in the Middle East.

It is unlikely they are going to have sharia law in Iraq. Most Iraqis are secular. The reason the mullahs seem so powerful is because they are well organized. They have a network of religious organizations, charities and education institutes supporting their cause. This is true in all muslim countries. However they cant make a real difference unless the majority of the people support them.

HemlockGrey · Post by **HemlockGrey** » 2004-01-24 12:25am

This is a historical nitpick but the analogy is also flawed because the population in many of the Latin Crusader kingdoms was comprised largely of Coptic, Orthodox, or various heretical Christian sects.

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2004-01-24 12:30am

evilcat4000 wrote:
Anyway, I think it depends on our resolve. We have to be willing to put our foot down and say "no" to any attempts to instate the Sharia in Iraq, even if it will be seen as a violation of religious freedom, or whatever the hell Muslims call practicing their male sexual disorder disguised as a religion. We have to make Iraqi government more than just the least disgusting Arab government in the Middle East.
It is unlikely they are going to have sharia law in Iraq. Most Iraqis are secular. The reason the mullahs seem so powerful is because they are well organized. They have a network of religious organizations, charities and education institutes supporting their cause. This is true in all muslim countries. However they cant make a real difference unless the majority of the people support them.

Well, I do hope you're right. But didn't the GC just instate the Sharia?

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-01-24 12:33am

This has been discussed many times before. You cannot compare the populations of Japan or Germany to those of Iraq, Saudi Arabia, etc. Both Japan and Germany were more amenable to western culture than any of the MidEast countries. Japan had been slowly westernizing itself in many respects for some decades before the Americans took over, and Germany was already a western nation.

It may be possible to stamp out Islamic fundamentalism but only if that is the stated goal and all necessary steps are taken to reach that goal. If the Bush Administration continues to pussy-foot around with its "this is not a war on Islam" line of bullshit and allow Islamic extremists to get away with human-rights abuses out of respect for religion and a desire to avoid hypocrisy (after all, they're hardly champions of secularism themselves), then it will fail. Already, Islamic law is gradually returning in Afghanistan, and we are starting to see seeds of the same in Iraq.

BTW, those of you with long memories may recall that last year, well before the Iraq war began, I posed the question: what if the Iraqis take their newfound democracy after "liberation" and decide to set up an Islamic fundamentalist state? The answer was a lot of mumbling, and some vague suggestions that this would not happen. Frankly, I don't see how any of this should come as a surprise.

Sarevok · Post by **Sarevok** » 2004-01-24 12:41am

Joe wrote:
evilcat4000 wrote:
Anyway, I think it depends on our resolve. We have to be willing to put our foot down and say "no" to any attempts to instate the Sharia in Iraq, even if it will be seen as a violation of religious freedom, or whatever the hell Muslims call practicing their male sexual disorder disguised as a religion. We have to make Iraqi government more than just the least disgusting Arab government in the Middle East.
It is unlikely they are going to have sharia law in Iraq. Most Iraqis are secular. The reason the mullahs seem so powerful is because they are well organized. They have a network of religious organizations, charities and education institutes supporting their cause. This is true in all muslim countries. However they cant make a real difference unless the majority of the people support them.
Well, I do hope you're right. But didn't the GC just instate the Sharia?

The GC did not instate Sharia. They changed the family laws to conform with the sharia. The family laws as the name suggests covers family related things like marriage, inheritence, divorce etc. This is not a penal code so no one is going to be punished in Iraq for not wearing a Burqa.

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2004-01-24 12:47am

Darth Wong wrote:BTW, those of you with long memories may recall that last year, well before the Iraq war began, I posed the question: what if the Iraqis take their newfound democracy after "liberation" and decide to set up an Islamic fundamentalist state? The answer was a lot of mumbling, and some vague suggestions that this would not happen. Frankly, I don't see how any of this should come as a surprise.

I remember. I thought the general consensus was "Who the fuck knows? I sure hope it doesn't happen."

Let the record show that that is still my position...

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-01-24 01:01am

Howedar wrote:I remember. I thought the general consensus was "Who the fuck knows? I sure hope it doesn't happen."

Let the record show that that is still my position...

True, now that I look into it more, I realize that the only true idiot on the subject was Axis Kast, who flatly said "They won't".

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2004-01-24 01:02am

There's Comical Axi for ya.