Stormbringer wrote:There's a huge difference between some one with prospects down on their luck and a permanent, parasitic, and improvished underclass.
Of course. But how does that statement translate into a workable solution? Fuck 'em? Their innocent kids are the ones who pay the price, and that's rather cruel. Pay 'em? That perpetuates the problem you decry so much. Tell 'em not to have kids? Yeah, right. I'm sure they'll obey. Force 'em not to have kids? Goodbye, human rights.
Or none of the above.
The best solution (and there's nothing that meets the ideal) is simply to give them a fixed much time on welfare and require them to get training for a real job and look for a job while they collect, if they might that criteria they're supported until they're self sufficient. If they don't they are eventually cut off and what ever steps necessary are taken to ensure the kids are taken care of. That's the basic theory behind of a lot of state's programs these days and suprisingly, they work well enough.
Stormbringer wrote:... If they don't they are eventually cut off and what ever steps necessary are taken to ensure the kids are taken care of. That's the basic theory behind of a lot of state's programs these days and suprisingly, they work well enough.
"Whatever steps necessary are taken to ensure the kids are taken care of", eh? Such as?
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing
"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC
"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness
"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.
Stormbringer wrote:... If they don't they are eventually cut off and what ever steps necessary are taken to ensure the kids are taken care of. That's the basic theory behind of a lot of state's programs these days and suprisingly, they work well enough.
"Whatever steps necessary are taken to ensure the kids are taken care of", eh? Such as?
Rearranging custody in single parent households or taking the kids away if the parent won't do anything.
Stormbringer wrote:Rearranging custody in single parent households or taking the kids away if the parent won't do anything.
So your solution to child poverty is to take the kids away from their parents and put them in state-run homes so that social justice can be upheld? And how, exactly, does one "rearrange custody" in a single-parent household? There's only one parent, and one possible custody arrangement! Or is that just a euphemism for "take the kids and put them in state-run homes"?
Woe to those unfortunate parents who lose their jobs and find themselves on welfare in your ideal society, for your stormtroopers would come to take their kids away.
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing
"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC
"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness
"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.
According to Stormbringer's post at the top of the thread, you will be supported until you're self-sufficient if you're getting job training and looking for a job. The kids getting taken away happens "eventaully" - presumably after at least a few years.
Stormbringer wrote:... If they don't they are eventually cut off and what ever steps necessary are taken to ensure the kids are taken care of. That's the basic theory behind of a lot of state's programs these days and suprisingly, they work well enough.
"Whatever steps necessary are taken to ensure the kids are taken care of", eh? Such as?
Rearranging custody in single parent households or taking the kids away if the parent won't do anything.
Yeah and what of the child? do you know what thats going to do to a kid?
It might surpise you to learn that there are some people in society that are almost unemployable for what ever reason, or will take an exceptionaly long time to gain any kind of employment.
Via money Europe could become political in five years" "... the current communities should be completed by a Finance Common Market which would lead us to European economic unity. Only then would ... the mutual commitments make it fairly easy to produce the political union which is the goal"
Darth Wong wrote:So your solution to child poverty is to take the kids away from their parents and put them in state-run homes so that social justice can be upheld? And how, exactly, does one "rearrange custody" in a single-parent household? There's only one parent, and one possible custody arrangement! Or is that just a euphemism for "take the kids and put them in state-run homes"?
What state run homes are you referring to? Yes, if the parent fails to do anything at all there is the possbility of them being cut off and losing custody (to the other parent, a more suitable relative, or a foster home) That's a rather extreme case where that would happen. And is the kid really better off with a parent that literally doesn't give a shit about their situation anyway?
Darth Wong wrote:Woe to those unfortunate parents who lose their jobs and find themselves on welfare in your ideal society, for your stormtroopers would come to take their kids away.
Did you miss the part about support being offered so long as they were making an effort to find employment and/or become employable? Only the parents that are unemployed and don't give a shit need to worry.
Howedar wrote:According to Stormbringer's post at the top of the thread, you will be supported until you're self-sufficient if you're getting job training and looking for a job. The kids getting taken away happens "eventaully" - presumably after at least a few years.
It only happens in the case of those are pretty much determined parasites. Those that can't support themselves and make no effort at all to be able to.
Stormbringer wrote:What state run homes are you referring to? Yes, if the parent fails to do anything at all there is the possbility of them being cut off and losing custody (to the other parent, a more suitable relative, or a foster home)
And if the other parent and/or "suitable relative" does not want custody, then what? Foster home? Guess what happens in foster homes; you pay them to take care of the kid. What difference is there between that arrangement and paying the original parent to do it, except that the kid is with his or her original parents?
That's a rather extreme case where that would happen. And is the kid really better off with a parent that literally doesn't give a shit about their situation anyway?
I dunno- ask the kid.
Darth Wong wrote:Woe to those unfortunate parents who lose their jobs and find themselves on welfare in your ideal society, for your stormtroopers would come to take their kids away.
Did you miss the part about support being offered so long as they were making an effort to find employment and/or become employable?
Then nothing will change, since the kind of "parasitic" welfare recipients you speak of are experts are pretending to look for employment.
Only the parents that are unemployed and don't give a shit need to worry.
Let me know when you come up with a solution that would actually do something.
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing
"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC
"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness
"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.
There's a difference between losing your job and going bankrupt or whatever, and being on welfare and never doing anything, then, intentionally, and knowingly having kids you know you cannot support.
I don't see how that should be seen as anything but child neglect or abuse.
"You know what the problem with Hollywood is. They make shit. Unbelievable. Unremarkable. Shit." - Gabriel Shear, Swordfish
"This statement, in its utterly clueless hubristic stupidity, cannot be improved upon. I merely quote it in admiration of its perfection." - Garibaldi in reply to an incredibly stupid post.
The Fifth Illuminatus Primus | Warsie | Skeptical Empiricist | Florida Gator | Sustainability Advocate | LibertarianSocialist |
Illuminatus Primus wrote:There's a difference between losing your job and going bankrupt or whatever, and being on welfare and never doing anything, then, intentionally, and knowingly having kids you know you cannot support.
I don't see how that should be seen as anything but child neglect or abuse.
Wow, and if you could just get parents to admit that they're doing this rather than insisting that they're genuinely looking for work, thus allowing you to legitimately differentiate them from those that are genuinely looking for work, you would have something. Or perhaps you intend to use telepaths.
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing
"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC
"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness
"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.
Darth Wong wrote:Wow, and if you could just get parents to admit that they're doing this rather than insisting that they're genuinely looking for work, thus allowing you to legitimately differentiate them from those that are genuinely looking for work, you would have something. Or perhaps you intend to use telepaths.
If you're having two or more kids after being unemployed, is quite clear something is very, very wrong.
"You know what the problem with Hollywood is. They make shit. Unbelievable. Unremarkable. Shit." - Gabriel Shear, Swordfish
"This statement, in its utterly clueless hubristic stupidity, cannot be improved upon. I merely quote it in admiration of its perfection." - Garibaldi in reply to an incredibly stupid post.
The Fifth Illuminatus Primus | Warsie | Skeptical Empiricist | Florida Gator | Sustainability Advocate | LibertarianSocialist |
Darth Wong wrote:Wow, and if you could just get parents to admit that they're doing this rather than insisting that they're genuinely looking for work, thus allowing you to legitimately differentiate them from those that are genuinely looking for work, you would have something. Or perhaps you intend to use telepaths.
If you're having two or more kids after being unemployed, is quite clear something is very, very wrong.
Yeah, you didn't take sufficient birth-control measures. What's your solution? Forced sterilization? Forced abortion? Stormtroopers come and rip the child away from the mother's arms in the delivery room?
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing
"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC
"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness
"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.
Darth Wong wrote:Wow, and if you could just get parents to admit that they're doing this rather than insisting that they're genuinely looking for work, thus allowing you to legitimately differentiate them from those that are genuinely looking for work, you would have something. Or perhaps you intend to use telepaths.
If you're having two or more kids after being unemployed, is quite clear something is very, very wrong.
Yeah, you didn't take sufficient birth-control measures. What's your solution? Forced sterilization? Forced abortion? Stormtroopers come and rip the child away from the mother's arms in the delivery room?
How about personal responsibility? Not sleeping around if you can't afford another kid? The only reason I can deal with for having a kid while sitting in welfare conditions is by rape.
"Well, it's too bad that thread pilots aren't allow to carry pistols.
Otherwise they would have stopped you." - Pablo Sanchez
StimNeuro wrote:How about personal responsibility? Not sleeping around if you can't afford another kid? The only reason I can deal with for having a kid while sitting in welfare conditions is by rape.
Excuse me fucktard, but we've already gone over that. You can preach all you want, but that is not a solution to a social problem. Unless you seriously think that yelling at poor people about social responsibility will actually make them stop having kids.
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing
"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC
"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness
"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.
