Questions about First Contact

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Alyeska
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Post by Alyeska »

Evil Jerk wrote:
Alyeska wrote:I think Edward Jelico is more representative of the SF captains. Picard runs the Flagship and it has more diplomatic duties then most ships. Jelico was a tough as nails commanding officer who knew how to put rebellious officers in their place and seemed to have a good grasp of tactics and strategy. Maxwell is another good choice. Asside for his obvious break down, his tactical and strategic skills were far better then Picards.
Both Jellico and Maxwell seem to have been potrayed as not being the norm for Starfleet captains.
Maxwell was potrayed as a war mongering lunatic, even though he was 100% right, and the Enterprise crew seemed to react with horror at Jellico's naval discipline, suggesting that his style was not widely practised.
Yet Starfleet trusted Jelico enough to give him command of the Enterprise and deal with the Cardassians, which he did excedingly well.

I have no doubt that the likes of Jelico and Maxwell aren't common, but I don't think they are extremely rare either.
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Post by Master of Ossus »

Alyeska wrote: I have no doubt that the likes of Jelico and Maxwell aren't common, but I don't think they are extremely rare either.
What are you basing that off of?
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Post by Alyeska »

Master of Ossus wrote:
Alyeska wrote: I have no doubt that the likes of Jelico and Maxwell aren't common, but I don't think they are extremely rare either.
What are you basing that off of?
The fact that Jelico was sent to the E-D and SF apparently valued his skill enough to let him take temporary command of the Enterprise. There is also the fact that he appears to be not so important to leave on some other ship.

We have seen only a handful of Trek captains, but if you take the number we have seen and compare that to Jelico and Maxwell, that means there are at least several hundred Trek captains of their quality.
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Post by Vympel »

Combat experience in the Cardassian War (the Captain of the Phoenix in "The Wounded"); not to mention the Dominion War (speculative but entirely reasonable) is what Alyeska probably means- would produce a few war veterans who know what they're doing.
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Post by Vympel »

Ack never mind. Alyeska replied already. But the point's still valid I reckon.
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Post by Master of Ossus »

Alyeska wrote:
Master of Ossus wrote:
Alyeska wrote: I have no doubt that the likes of Jelico and Maxwell aren't common, but I don't think they are extremely rare either.
What are you basing that off of?
The fact that Jelico was sent to the E-D and SF apparently valued his skill enough to let him take temporary command of the Enterprise. There is also the fact that he appears to be not so important to leave on some other ship.

We have seen only a handful of Trek captains, but if you take the number we have seen and compare that to Jelico and Maxwell, that means there are at least several hundred Trek captains of their quality.
So, basically, you're saying that they turned over the command of one of the most powerful and important ships in the entire Federation to a completely average officer? How is this possible?
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Re: Questions about First Contact

Post by Enlightenment »

Admiral Drason wrote:I was woundering about a couple of things in First Contact.
To borrow a phrase from rec.arts.sf.composition: mutant heatseeking rattlesnakes aka stuff that happens for no other purpose than to advance the plot.

The TNG movies are so badly infested with mutant heatseeking rattlesnakes that someone should have called an exterminator.
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Post by Alyeska »

Master of Ossus wrote:
Alyeska wrote:
Master of Ossus wrote: What are you basing that off of?
The fact that Jelico was sent to the E-D and SF apparently valued his skill enough to let him take temporary command of the Enterprise. There is also the fact that he appears to be not so important to leave on some other ship.

We have seen only a handful of Trek captains, but if you take the number we have seen and compare that to Jelico and Maxwell, that means there are at least several hundred Trek captains of their quality.
So, basically, you're saying that they turned over the command of one of the most powerful and important ships in the entire Federation to a completely average officer? How is this possible?
I did not say average. I also did not say rare either. He is good, but I don't think he is THAT rare. Out of 12,000 ships and 8,000 captains, there are going to be several hundred really good captains regardless.
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Post by Doomriser »

I've been fuming on the Riker issue for days. In fact, it's been an issue since I saw the claims on SB.

It basically can be summed up that "Riker is incompetent, but for some convoluted reason he is XO of the flagship, often commanding it directly, and he gets his own ship later and has been offered commands in the past."

Let's look at the reality of the situation.

From www.startrek.com

William T. Riker
Executive Officer.

"Decorated five times since graduating 8th in his class from Starfleet Academy, Riker continues to serve with distinction under the command of Captain Jean-Luc Picard...

That career soon accelerated with his posting to the U.S.S. Potemkin, where he received the promotion to Lieutenant Commander and the commendation of "exceptional valor" after leading a heroic rescue mission. Upon completion of his post aboard the Potemkin, Riker was promoted to executive officer aboard the U.S.S. Hood.

This was soon to be followed by the selection of Riker by Jean-Luc Picard to serve aboard the Enterprise as his First Officer.

Throughout his career aboard the Enterprise, Riker has been offered no less than three command posts on other ships. Due to extenuating circumstances and a mixture of both loyalty and desire to someday command the Enterprise, Riker has refused them all. It has been observed by all who served with him that his command style is unconventional, yet highly effective, as demonstrated in encounters with such as the Borg and the Son'a. "

Does this sound like the career of an unsuccessful and incompetent officer? Clearly, Starfleet loves the guy. They've even whitewashed history for him. There is no mention of the transporter accident that cloned Riker and the roles played by the two. And do you know where the "unconventional" comment comes from? It's from when he positioned his ship over the magnetic pole of a planet, something that confuses ST sensors. Apparently, even though that defect was known, Riker was odd for actually using it tactically. Notice how the battle with the Son'a is described as "tactically challenging" by Startrek.com. Despite fan speculation, Riker's performance has clearly been viewed as exemplary in the face of overwhelming odds.

Conclusion:

The debate participants already agree that Riker is incompetent by the standards of a modern military.

Yet Riker is tactically brilliant by the standards of a Starfleet officer. He is highly decorated, and sought after by other Starfleet captains. He is not blamed for the destruction of the E-D and will probably get his own command in ST:X.

Since Riker represents the "cream of the crop" of Starfleet officers, then most starfleet officers, commanding officers in particular, must be grossly incompetent. This is consistent with the demonstrations of intelligence exhibited by Captain Clark Terrell of the U.S.S. Reliant [ST:II], Captain Donald Varley of the U.S.S. Yamato [Contaigion?] (hmm, both bigtime screw-ups are black...hmm...the writers trying to indicate something?) Then we have less than stellar performances all around from such examples as the captain of the U.S.S. Grissom, the original captain of the U.S.S. Excelsior, the nutbar Commodore who let his crew be eaten by the doomsday machine as well as the officer who went after Kirk when M-5 went crazy. Then we have the mental instability of Captain Benjamin Maxwell, and so on. Then there's conspirators such as Admiral Cartwright [black, again], Colonel West, the guy in "Homefront" [DS9], the Admiral in Insurrection - whether or not they were right, they were technically commiting treason! Someone is going to have to list all the deplorable examples of Starfleet captains and other officers.

Stating that Riker is cream-of-the-crop, then, seems to be quite reasonable.
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Post by Ender »

Alyeska wrote:I did not say average. I also did not say rare either. He is good, but I don't think he is THAT rare. Out of 12,000 ships and 8,000 captains, there are going to be several hundred really good captains regardless.
...

If you have 12000 ships you will also have 12000 captains; more actually because you have bases and such to be run.
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Post by Isolder74 »

Yes, Riker is an incompitent moron. He has gotten himself dismissed from service(incedentally the same episode with Jelico as Captian), lost the E-D by not fight back but turning tail and running(surely even if they can fire through shield the E-D should have been able to kill a tiny BOP), and nearly lost the E-E to the Sona by once again turning tail and running. His Riker Manuever wasn't all that inventive either.
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Post by Alyeska »

Ender wrote:
Alyeska wrote:I did not say average. I also did not say rare either. He is good, but I don't think he is THAT rare. Out of 12,000 ships and 8,000 captains, there are going to be several hundred really good captains regardless.
...

If you have 12000 ships you will also have 12000 captains; more actually because you have bases and such to be run.
Maybe, however with ship rotation (as in you need 3 ships to have 1 on active assignment) your not going to have all that many with a ship command at any one time.
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Post by Master of Ossus »

Incidentally, in the questionably alternate timeline presented in "All Good Things...," Riker was promoted to ADMIRAL, and had enough influence to upgrade the Enterprise to the point where it could still be useful after a period of apparent technological advancement throughout the AQ.
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Post by Isolder74 »

Master of Ossus wrote:Incidentally, in the questionably alternate timeline presented in "All Good Things...," Riker was promoted to ADMIRAL, and had enough influence to upgrade the Enterprise to the point where it could still be useful after a period of apparent technological advancement throughout the AQ.
Yes cause most admirals have desk jobs
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Post by Master of Ossus »

Alyeska wrote:
Ender wrote:
Alyeska wrote:I did not say average. I also did not say rare either. He is good, but I don't think he is THAT rare. Out of 12,000 ships and 8,000 captains, there are going to be several hundred really good captains regardless.
...

If you have 12000 ships you will also have 12000 captains; more actually because you have bases and such to be run.
Maybe, however with ship rotation (as in you need 3 ships to have 1 on active assignment) your not going to have all that many with a ship command at any one time.
Captains are supposed to go DOWN with their ships, why the hell would they be transfered to another vessel, who they are not familiar with and whose crew is totally alien to them, just to keep them in active duty for another few weeks. Wouldn't it be better to keep them on the same ship continuously, leading the crew during repairs and downtime? Also remember that Picard has never, IIRC, left the Enterprise to assume command of another ship during crew rotations, but his extraordinary number of vacation days remaining clearly indicates that he does not go on vacation, leading credence to the theory that he is supposed to be at "work" during dry-dock situations (if they were going to rotate him, he would need to take a vacation day in order to do that). Your scenario makes no sense.
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Post by Alyeska »

Master of Ossus wrote:
Alyeska wrote:
Ender wrote:...

If you have 12000 ships you will also have 12000 captains; more actually because you have bases and such to be run.
Maybe, however with ship rotation (as in you need 3 ships to have 1 on active assignment) your not going to have all that many with a ship command at any one time.
Captains are supposed to go DOWN with their ships, why the hell would they be transfered to another vessel, who they are not familiar with and whose crew is totally alien to them, just to keep them in active duty for another few weeks. Wouldn't it be better to keep them on the same ship continuously, leading the crew during repairs and downtime? Also remember that Picard has never, IIRC, left the Enterprise to assume command of another ship during crew rotations, but his extraordinary number of vacation days remaining clearly indicates that he does not go on vacation, leading credence to the theory that he is supposed to be at "work" during dry-dock situations (if they were going to rotate him, he would need to take a vacation day in order to do that). Your scenario makes no sense.
Point taken.
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