Bush seeks 401.7B defense budget for 2005

Post by **Vympel** » 2004-01-24 04:30am

Darth Wong wrote:
Weren't those tests rigged? Or am I thinking of something else?

You're thinking of the National Missile Defense tests, where the targets were equipped with beacons so the EKV could destroy it.

I've never, ever heard of AIM-9s being shot down by a laser though. When was this?

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2004-01-24 05:31am

Vympel wrote:
You're thinking of the National Missile Defense tests, where the targets were equipped with beacons so the EKV could destroy it.

A few targets were equipped with a radio beacon because the radar system wasn't ready and the tests were to check out the kill vehicle and its functioning guidance system, you know the thing, which does the hard part of the job. Claiming the tests where rigged is total BS, and by the same standard any test of anything which does not test all aspect at once is rigged. That isn't the case last time I checked. There would only be a valid grounding for a rigged claim if the fact that the radar system wasn't used was concealed. But it wasn't and the whole thing is just the product of idiots who have no idea how you test and develop something.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2004-01-24 05:35am

phongn wrote:
Howedar wrote:WHOOOOA nelly! Shooting down an AAM is not a simple task. It's been a huge job to get the AL-1 ready to shoot down boost-phase ballistic missiles which are an order of magnitude or two larger and moving in a straight line.
IIRC, the old Airborne Laser Laboratory shot down AIM-9s in tests.

I think they just blinded the seekers, turning the Winders into ballistic rockets, which then tumbled out of control.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2004-01-24 05:48am

Vympel wrote:The only laser program I've heard for the F-35 is a laser to replace the traditional cannon, that's all (which is to be a 27mm Mauser variant). In computer simulations they use the phaser sound effect from ST:TOS.

It seems that the cannon will now likely be the 25mm GAU-12 gatling, since that weapon is produced within the Lockheed Martin empire, while the BK.27 would have to be imported.

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2004-01-24 07:29am

Shinova wrote:What do they plan to do with all that defense money???

COnquer the world!

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2004-01-24 07:36am

Sea Skimmer wrote: It seems that the cannon will now likely be the 25mm GAU-12 gatling, since that weapon is produced within the Lockheed Martin empire, while the BK.27 would have to be imported.

YES! Now we can fire off thousands of rounds without pesky barrel changes!

Post by **Vympel** » 2004-01-24 08:51am

Sea Skimmer wrote:
It seems that the cannon will now likely be the 25mm GAU-12 gatling, since that weapon is produced within the Lockheed Martin empire, while the BK.27 would have to be imported.

No, it's a BK.27 variant with a wanky sounding Pentagon name (Advanced something or other), produced by Boeing- no import necessary IIRC (I'm going off an old Boeing press release from memory).

Post by **Vympel** » 2004-01-24 08:52am

Sea Skimmer wrote: A few targets were equipped with a radio beacon because the radar system wasn't ready and the tests were to check out the kill vehicle and its functioning guidance system, you know the thing, which does the hard part of the job. Claiming the tests where rigged is total BS, and by the same standard any test of anything which does not test all aspect at once is rigged. That isn't the case last time I checked. There would only be a valid grounding for a rigged claim if the fact that the radar system wasn't used was concealed. But it wasn't and the whole thing is just the product of idiots who have no idea how you test and develop something.

A bit more complicated than that- the tests, when they happened, were hailed as "NMD works!". The more informed critics said basically, "from these tests, there's no evidence of that".

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2004-01-24 08:53am

Vympel wrote: No, it's a BK.27 variant with a wanky sounding Pentagon name (Advanced something or other), produced by Boeing- no import necessary IIRC (I'm going off an old Boeing press release from memory).

Boeing lost, so screw 'em! LockMart got the contract, so they can
chose which gun to put in...the Lockmart one or the Boeing one.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2004-01-24 04:31pm

Vympel wrote:
No, it's a BK.27 variant with a wanky sounding Pentagon name (Advanced something or other), produced by Boeing- no import necessary IIRC (I'm going off an old Boeing press release from memory).

You seem to forget that Boeing lost, and Lockhead would rather buy overseas then from its biggest competitor.

lukexcom · Post by **lukexcom** » 2004-01-25 02:58am

Sea Skimmer wrote:
phongn wrote:
Howedar wrote:WHOOOOA nelly! Shooting down an AAM is not a simple task. It's been a huge job to get the AL-1 ready to shoot down boost-phase ballistic missiles which are an order of magnitude or two larger and moving in a straight line.
IIRC, the old Airborne Laser Laboratory shot down AIM-9s in tests.
I think they just blinded the seekers, turning the Winders into ballistic rockets, which then tumbled out of control.

This may be it.

I vaguely recall this being mentioned in a History Channel program some 3-4 years ago, complete with video footage of the AIM-9 being burned.

lukexcom · Post by **lukexcom** » 2004-01-25 03:00am

Damn, no edit button.

Here is a lot more information about it.

Post by **Alyrium Denryle** » 2004-01-25 03:04pm

last time I checked 400 billion is almost 1/4th of our total budget... What the fuck... Bloody virgin mary's tampon! That money could be used for better things, like education, or massive grants for curiosity based research(that is the shameless self-interest talking)

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2004-01-25 03:31pm

Alyrium Denryle wrote:last time I checked 400 billion is almost 1/4th of our total budget... What the fuck... Bloody virgin mary's tampon! That money could be used for better things, like education, or massive grants for curiosity based research(that is the shameless self-interest talking)

Yeah. Federal grants for education have done so well.

Post by **Alyrium Denryle** » 2004-01-25 03:36pm

Granted, you cant solve a problem by throwing money at it, but things like No Child Left Behind are unfunded mandates... good ideas, but unfunded.

The problems with our schools however, stem largley from an inability to attract people who are skilled in heir fields(why teach when you can make several times a teachers salary doing something else?) and lack of equipment and supplies. When you cant afford textbooks published after the cold war ended... there is a problem.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2004-01-25 04:17pm

Alyrium Denryle wrote:last time I checked 400 billion is almost 1/4th of our total budget... What the fuck... Bloody virgin mary's tampon! That money could be used for better things, like education, or massive grants for curiosity based research(that is the shameless self-interest talking)

And so how do your propose to defend the country without a defence budget moron? Last time I checked providing for a common defence was the first power of the federal government. I suppose your just one of the idiots who thinks if the United States becomes a turtle no one will ever bother it and all that wealth and prosperity will forever remain.

Post by **Alyrium Denryle** » 2004-01-25 04:20pm

I didnt say we didnt need a defense budget, so ou can take that strawman down anytime now. All I said was that it didnt need to be that large and that some of it could be put to better uses.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2004-01-25 04:22pm

Alyrium Denryle wrote:I didnt say we didnt need a defense budget, so ou can take that strawman down anytime now. All I said was that it didnt need to be that large and that some of it could be put to better uses.

Alright Alyrium. Put your money where your mouth is and tell us what project can go from the defense budget.

Post by **Alyrium Denryle** » 2004-01-25 04:40pm

Self-interest talking: We could use it for research grants to increase our technology and knowledge base. That way, we can have even niftier weapons of mass destruction once the base concepts are down

Others speaking: Or we could also use a few billion of that massive defense budget(it is high, even for american defense budgets last year was IIRC 379.3 billion) for financial aid for students, grants to schools, paying for roads etc etc etc.

RedImperator · Post by **RedImperator** » 2004-01-25 04:42pm

Alyrium Denryle wrote:Self-interest talking: We could use it for research grants to increase our technology and knowledge base. That way, we can have even niftier weapons of mass destruction once the base concepts are down

Others speaking: Or we could also use a few billion of that massive defense budget(it is high, even for american defense budgets last year was IIRC 379.3 billion) for financial aid for students, grants to schools, paying for roads etc etc etc.

Yes, yes, yes, turn the pork barrel over and start eating from the other end. That part we understand. The question posed to you is, what part of the defense budget gets cut in order to pay for all those other wonderful things?

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2004-01-25 04:44pm

The "No Child Left Behind" is a piece of shit. There's NO reason why we should continue wasting valuable education resources on failing students. We spend almost twenty times as much money annually on every student with a severe mental disability as we do on other students, but their test-scores have been shown to improve only slightly. Imagine what would happen if we funded a normal student with twenty times as much money.

As it is, a learning-disabled child moving in to a small school district can literally DESTROY the school system there, since a very large portion of its budget MUST then be spent educating this individual, while he will at the same time damage their test scores and therefore reduce their total funding. This is unacceptable.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2004-01-25 04:48pm

Alyrium Denryle wrote:Self-interest talking: We could use it for research grants to increase our technology and knowledge base. That way, we can have even niftier weapons of mass destruction once the base concepts are down

Others speaking: Or we could also use a few billion of that massive defense budget(it is high, even for american defense budgets last year was IIRC 379.3 billion) for financial aid for students, grants to schools, paying for roads etc etc etc.

Are you a totally incompetant idiot?

I said what projects do you want to cut from the military budget to do this? I'm still waiting what gets the ax to pay for your government-subsidized everything.

Post by **Alyrium Denryle** » 2004-01-25 04:54pm

RedImperator wrote:
Alyrium Denryle wrote:Self-interest talking: We could use it for research grants to increase our technology and knowledge base. That way, we can have even niftier weapons of mass destruction once the base concepts are down

Others speaking: Or we could also use a few billion of that massive defense budget(it is high, even for american defense budgets last year was IIRC 379.3 billion) for financial aid for students, grants to schools, paying for roads etc etc etc.
Yes, yes, yes, turn the pork barrel over and start eating from the other end. That part we understand. The question posed to you is, what part of the defense budget gets cut in order to pay for all those other wonderful things?

Technically, we dont have to decrease anything, considering that that 400 billion is a massive spending increase. Why not account for inflation and simply maintain the status quo? Something makes me think that the few vehicles and men we have lost so far, justify a 20 billion dollar spending increase.

Post by **Alyrium Denryle** » 2004-01-25 04:55pm

Illuminatus Primus wrote:
Alyrium Denryle wrote:Self-interest talking: We could use it for research grants to increase our technology and knowledge base. That way, we can have even niftier weapons of mass destruction once the base concepts are down

Others speaking: Or we could also use a few billion of that massive defense budget(it is high, even for american defense budgets last year was IIRC 379.3 billion) for financial aid for students, grants to schools, paying for roads etc etc etc.
Are you a totally incompetant idiot?

I said what projects do you want to cut from the military budget to do this? I'm still waiting what gets the ax to pay for your government-subsidized everything.

Sorry, misread you.

Post by **Alyrium Denryle** » 2004-01-25 04:56pm

Alyrium Denryle wrote:
RedImperator wrote:
Alyrium Denryle wrote:Self-interest talking: We could use it for research grants to increase our technology and knowledge base. That way, we can have even niftier weapons of mass destruction once the base concepts are down

Others speaking: Or we could also use a few billion of that massive defense budget(it is high, even for american defense budgets last year was IIRC 379.3 billion) for financial aid for students, grants to schools, paying for roads etc etc etc.
Yes, yes, yes, turn the pork barrel over and start eating from the other end. That part we understand. The question posed to you is, what part of the defense budget gets cut in order to pay for all those other wonderful things?
Technically, we dont have to decrease anything, considering that that 400 billion is a massive spending increase. Why not account for inflation and simply maintain the status quo? Something makes me think that the few vehicles and men we have lost so far, justify a 20 billion dollar spending increase.

edit: Dont justify.