How to defeat the Dominion in 7 days.

Trogdor · Post by **Trogdor** » 2004-01-22 08:04pm

I suppose the Empire would just do a full scale invasion, but I'd assume that the Empire's vastly superior tech would make the use of a bioweapon more practical than it would for us. Perhaps the Remnant would do it, especially if they wanted to keep the manpower drain small enough that the NR wouldn't notice what they were doing. Besides, there has to be a better way to infect the Jem Hadar than just contaminating the the supplies of white. The people in Trek could, theoretically, send a bioweapon through subspace for crying out loud.

GySgt. Hartman · Post by **GySgt. Hartman** » 2004-01-22 08:35pm

Trogdor wrote:I expect a better way to defeat the Dominion than going after the white depots, which must be really well guarded, given their importance, [...]

Actually, in "A Time To Stand" we have seen that they are not guarded at all. They are shielded, but I couldn't make out any weapons. Their only defense are the ships that pass by more or less frequently (and maybe some guns I haven't seen). They probably rely on being deep in Dominion space.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-01-23 07:13am

The number of depots is difficult to guess. On the one hand, they would want lots of depots to avoid critical points of failure for their entire military infrastructure. On the other hand, they need very tight security for their supply because they fear the possibility of a Jem'Hadar rebellion, which would be much easier to maintain with a few large depots than a large number of small ones.

Sarevok · Post by **Sarevok** » 2004-01-23 07:30am

GySgt. Hartman wrote:
Trogdor wrote:I expect a better way to defeat the Dominion than going after the white depots, which must be really well guarded, given their importance, [...]
Actually, in "A Time To Stand" we have seen that they are not guarded at all. They are shielded, but I couldn't make out any weapons. Their only defense are the ships that pass by more or less frequently (and maybe some guns I haven't seen). They probably rely on being deep in Dominion space.

Even if the depots are well guarded they could still be easily destroyed by a fleet of Star Destroyers. Dominion ships are no match for Imperial technology.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-01-23 07:37am

evilcat4000 wrote:Even if the depots are well guarded they could still be easily destroyed by a fleet of Star Destroyers. Dominion ships are no match for Imperial technology.

I got the impression that the thread implied that he was looking for a way to do it on the cheap with a weak force. Obviously, an Imperial sector fleet could wipe out the Dominion in 7 days without worrying about the Ketracel White at all.

GySgt. Hartman · Post by **GySgt. Hartman** » 2004-01-23 07:54am

Exactly. Taking 100 ISDs and blasting the Dominion to hell might be a good way to get off for some people, but it's not going to make for an exciting story. I want to put a little emphasis on strategy, not just raw power.
(If I want to pick a fight, I don't go to a kindergarten.)

GySgt. Hartman · Post by **GySgt. Hartman** » 2004-01-23 08:04am

Darth Wong wrote:On the other hand, they need very tight security for their supply because they fear the possibility of a Jem'Hadar rebellion,[...]

Who is guarding the depots anyway? Since they are used to keep the Jem'Hadar in line, they won't have Jem'Hadars as guards, right? It would be like having an alcoholic guard a whiskey depot.
I think we can rule out automated defences, since I am not sure if Trek AIs can handle such complicated situations.
The Vorta aren't exactly warriors. If there was another warrior race, they would also have to depend on a substance (let's call it S2), probably a different one. Then they could have them guarding the K-w depots and the Jem'Hadar guarding the S2-depots. I wonder if this isn't a little complicated.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-01-23 09:18am

Perhaps a Founder is personally stationed at each K-W depot, which would bolster the "small number of depots" theory. Either that, or a Vorta with some kind of kill-switch which would destroy the entire depot's supply of K-W.

Ted C · Post by **Ted C** » 2004-01-23 10:48am

Darth Wong wrote:On the other hand, they need very tight security for their supply because they fear the possibility of a Jem'Hadar rebellion, which would be much easier to maintain with a few large depots than a large number of small ones.

I was under the impression that most Jem'Hadar were loyal through conditioning or "genetic loyalty", like the Vorta, and the K-W was just a backup measure. Jem'Hadar probably do guard the depots, but I would expect each one to have a Vorta or Founder administrator with the means to destroy the supply in the event of an emergency. There's also a "trader race" in the Delta Quadrant, the Dosi (ref "Rules of Acquisition"). Perhaps they are charged with distributing K-W...

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-01-23 10:59am

Of course, all of this leads to another question: where is Ketracel White manufactured?

Ted C · Post by **Ted C** » 2004-01-23 11:03am

Darth Wong wrote:Of course, all of this leads to another question: where is Ketracel White manufactured?

Good question. It's apparently not made on the Founder homeworld, which is pretty close to barren (both the original and the one they relocated to).

I suspect that the Vorta are in charge of production, and they probably have a small number of manufacturing facilities in different systems.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-01-23 11:08am

The destruction of the manufacturing centre(s) might be even more devastating than the destruction of supply depots. The stuff can't be that easy to make, or the restriction of supply would be unviable as a means of control.

Ted C · Post by **Ted C** » 2004-01-23 11:27am

Darth Wong wrote:The destruction of the manufacturing centre(s) might be even more devastating than the destruction of supply depots. The stuff can't be that easy to make, or the restriction of supply would be unviable as a means of control.

It goes without saying that the stuff must be impossible to replicate.

GySgt. Hartman · Post by **GySgt. Hartman** » 2004-01-23 12:08pm

Ted C wrote:I was under the impression that most Jem'Hadar were loyal through conditioning or "genetic loyalty", like the Vorta, and the K-W was just a backup measure. Jem'Hadar probably do guard the depots, but I would expect each one to have a Vorta or Founder administrator with the means to destroy the supply in the event of an emergency

If the K-W dependency of the Jem'Hadar is a measure to insure control over them, the depot would need a very elaborate system of checks that the Vorta is alive and free, something like a switch that he has to press (and identify himself to) every few minutes. Since the Jem'Hadar ships have to come within transporter range to refill, having them guard the depot would not bring an additional risk.
Apparently the Son'a assisted the Dominion in producing K-W in tha Alpha-Quadrant, although they were only an ally. The Dominion seems to have pretty low security standards...

I thought that going after the depots would be easier that going after the factories, since the depots are probably visited more often, making it easier to find their location by traffic analysis, and because they are not guarded at all.
Now that I know that the Founders have subcontracted a foreign species for the production, I am not so sure anymore.

It goes without saying that the stuff must be impossible to replicate.

Actually, it must only be impossible to analyze.

Ted C · Post by **Ted C** » 2004-01-23 12:13pm

GySgt. Hartman wrote:
It goes without saying that the stuff must be impossible to replicate.
Actually, it must only be impossible to analyze.

I thought that Doctor Bashir had successfully synthesized the stuff, meaning he'd successfully analyzed it.

Tribun · Post by **Tribun** » 2004-01-23 12:44pm

I remember a episode of DS9, where a Karcetel White generator is shown. It was as big as a crate an all ingradients must be in the generator because it was used to produce White after the Vorta identified himself with his fingerprint.
We can assume that this is only for field operations and that White is normally produced in big factories.

Ted C · Post by **Ted C** » 2004-01-23 01:38pm

Tribun wrote:I remember a episode of DS9, where a Karcetel White generator is shown. It was as big as a crate an all ingradients must be in the generator because it was used to produce White after the Vorta identified himself with his fingerprint.
We can assume that this is only for field operations and that White is normally produced in big factories.

Sounds like more of a "dispenser" than a "generator", by your description of how it operated.

seanrobertson · Post by **seanrobertson** » 2004-01-23 01:50pm

The crate in question was merely a dispenser. We've seen them containing dwindling supplies of white in "Rocks and Shoals" and "Hippocratic Oath."

harbringer · Post by **harbringer** » 2004-01-25 09:53am

Just as a point of interest the U.S. military spent a lot of money turning non lethal virii and bacteria into wepons for a proposed assault on Cuba. It was set so that bettween the several contagions it would keep 85% to 100% of the Cuban people sick for a week to a fortnight. U.S. troops who had been innoculated were presumed to be able to just walk in and take the place. Why this plan was never used is anyones guess.

Now while it might be practical in the case of Cuba, when your talking millions of worlds a bioweapon doesnt make a lot of sense. If it had to actually be in the drug it would make less sense, why not just have it react with the drug??. Or use a nano-weapon??.

Much easier just to BDZ planets though.

GySgt. Hartman · Post by **GySgt. Hartman** » 2004-01-25 01:09pm

harbringer wrote:Much easier just to BDZ planets though.

Please read the entire thread before replying. I know that some people like to spank their wookie to fantasies of 100s of ISDs roaming through the Federation, blasting everything in their way.
My plan is to conquer the Dominion
a) using one ISD and a few support ships
b) leaving their planets largely intact
c) a lot faster

GySgt. Hartman · Post by **GySgt. Hartman** » 2004-01-25 01:19pm

harbringer wrote:Why this plan was never used is anyones guess.

I don't know how you think about using bioweapons (weapons of mass destruction) on civilians, but I certainly don't approve. And the president seemed to agree with me. I find this absolutely horrible, I never thought that people in the civilized parts of the world would disagree on this.
Now, when we are discussing bioweapons use by the ruthless Empire, in our fictional universe, there are a few points to consider:
First, there is the potential for mutation that makes bioweapons a bit unpredictable. You wouldn't want it to attack your own troops, and you would want to keep the population alive. What is the point in being Emperor if you have no subjects to rule over.
Second, there are image questions. Use of WMD would probably bring up most other races in an alliance against you.
Third, by the time you have researched your bioweapons, and adapted tem to your targets, you could have executed a host of other plans already.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-01-25 03:46pm

GySgt. Hartman wrote:
harbringer wrote:Much easier just to BDZ planets though.
Please read the entire thread before replying. I know that some people like to spank their wookie to fantasies of 100s of ISDs roaming through the Federation, blasting everything in their way.
My plan is to conquer the Dominion
a) using one ISD and a few support ships
b) leaving their planets largely intact
c) a lot faster

If you had good enough intel to locate the Founders' homeworld, a first-strike on their homeworld would be more effective than the destruction of K-W depots. Most of the Jem-Hadar would probably commit suicide right then and there.

The problem is the ensuing chaos and power vacuum as individual worlds attempt to assert control over their respective territories. With only one ship, no matter how powerful, it would be exceedingly difficult to maintain control of the Dominion's territory, particularly with it fracturing into countless feuding regions.

D.Turtle · Post by **D.Turtle** » 2004-01-25 05:40pm

The best and fastest way (IMO of course) would be to make a show of force (blast one of the major planets or fleets into oblivion, for example), and then appear over the founders' homeworld, demanding their immediate surrender to you.

Otherwise threaten to destroy them.

After all, the Dominion surrendering to you is a way to defeat them.

The advantage is that you now have the infrastructure, planets, fleets, etc of the Dominion.

GySgt. Hartman · Post by **GySgt. Hartman** » 2004-01-25 08:45pm

That's why I was wondering if it was easier to find
a) the Founder's planet
b) the K-W factories
c) the K-W depots

Knowing the location of any one of these would end the war quickly.

Post by **Gandalf** » 2004-01-26 05:48am

I think the control the Founders have over the Jem' Hadar is stronger then just a basic drug addiction. In Rocks and Shoals the Jem' Hadar leader Ramata' Klan refused to turn against his Vorta Keevan. He knew there was betrayal afoot and than he deliberately had them sent in a bad situation. He still refused to disobey his order. Whilst there have been renegade Jem' Hadar, it seems rather rare.

I am a Jem' Hadar, he is a Vorta. It is the order of things.

Also, I think the KW was generated in the AQ eventually. In Statistical Probabilities, we see that the Dominon were negotiating for a planet that had a key ingrediant for KW. Bashir recommended that they give them that planet, at the part of the ep, Starfleet seemed to put great stock in what he and the Jack Pack thought. Whilst you never see the result, it fits that they made their own this way.