Space Marines Versus Stormtroopers.

[white_rabbit]

Space Marines from 40k versus the the Galactic empires Stormy legions

1 Chapter with normal equipment and vehicles versus an equvalent number of Stormys with equivalent equipment and vehicles.

Each side has orbital support, but just for mobility and relocation, the Marines get a Strike Cruiser, the Stormys an ISD.

The two ships wont engage, mainly because I dont want 40k debaters to just say the Strike Cruiser blows the ISD away and frags the planet.

they fight to the Death.

Stormys are lead by.....ummm, Thrawn ? or covell, veers, whoever, as long as they are Compentant, The Marines are led by a Chapter Master, who that is depends on which chapter is used...

Marine Chapters availiable are.

Salamanders
Space Wolves
Blood Angels
Dark angels
Black Templars..

[Mr Bean]

Hmm Well far as I remeber Space Marines Bolters right?(I always forget the names) can rip through Stormy Armor well enough(Expolisve tiped min-missles) as well as the E-11s and such can grind through Stormy Armor,

The At-Ats will be a BIG problem for the Marines until they can get under the sucker

Somehow I think maybe all one need is three space marines to shove an At-At over

Bloddy Bloddy Fight however what do Marines have in the Way of Fighters?

[thecreech]

Space marines are to heavly armored for the stormies. Space marines take it

[Patrick Ogaard]

Space marines are to heavly armored for the stormies. Space marines take it

Not if you're playing by the WH40K rules. Stormtroopers use plasma weapons, and plasma weapons tear through space marine armor like it's not even there. That would be a major equalizer for the stormtroopers. Even the tactical dreadnought armor worn by space marine terminator squads does not stand up well to plasma weapons.

Insane close combat power is the major strength of space marines fighting stormtroopers.

[white_rabbit]

Hmm Well far as I remeber Space Marines Bolters right?(I always forget the names) can rip through Stormy Armor well enough(Expolisve tiped min-missles) as well as the E-11s and such can grind through Stormy Armor,

The At-Ats will be a BIG problem for the Marines until they can get under the sucker

Somehow I think maybe all one need is three space marines to shove an At-At over

Bloddy Bloddy Fight however what do Marines have in the Way of Fighters?

Space Marines dont have fighters per se, they use Thunderhawk gunships, big bad armoured dropships with a Titan-grade weapon usually a Turbolaser I think, on their back, huge missles and multiple lascannon and Heavy Bolter automatic turrets, carrys 30 space Marines and they also have a vehicle carrying Varient.. they also double as hardened fighter-bombers for the space Marine fleets.

E.g...one of these..




Personally I dont think the AT-ATs will be that difficult to destroy for the marines, they have plenty of Fast moving heavy weapons platforms like Speeders and Bikes, and those legs are awfully tempting targets for an assault squad with melta bombs or a melta gun, not to mention the various tanks, and marines are vastly superior shots to Stormys.

And most of the marines will be harder trained and more experianced than the Stormtroopers as well as better equipped.

And nigh on every marine squad will have a heavy or special weapon of tankbusting capability, they also have plenty of tanks, extremely fast moving tanks...that will carry them into close quarters, where they should absolutely mince the Stormys,

[thecreech]

Space marines are to heavly armored for the stormies. Space marines take it

Not if you're playing by the WH40K rules. Stormtroopers use plasma weapons, and plasma weapons tear through space marine armor like it's not even there. That would be a major equalizer for the stormtroopers. Even the tactical dreadnought armor worn by space marine terminator squads does not stand up well to plasma weapons.

Insane close combat power is the major strength of space marines fighting stormtroopers.

You know your right about that. I was thinking of style over substance... my fault

[Patrick Ogaard]

Space marines are to heavly armored for the stormies. Space marines take it

Not if you're playing by the WH40K rules. Stormtroopers use plasma weapons, and plasma weapons tear through space marine armor like it's not even there. That would be a major equalizer for the stormtroopers. Even the tactical dreadnought armor worn by space marine terminator squads does not stand up well to plasma weapons.

Insane close combat power is the major strength of space marines fighting stormtroopers.

You know your right about that. I was thinking of style over substance... my fault

I wouldn't worry too much about it.

Space marines would definitely be unholy terrors in close quarters combat, and they have access to plenty of heavy weapons, not to mention their assorted death-dealing vehicles and spacecraft. They are certainly a force that could give stormtroopers an even fight. The stormtrooper plasma weapons are a major advantage, but not a game breaker, since they are balanced by the space marine advantages in close combat.

The big difference is really that the space marine chapters are, at least in theory, only a thousand marines strong each, and at only a thousand chapters officially existing in the galaxy, that's a million marines. Even if stormtroopers are not individually as powerful as space marines, there have to be a lot more of them. Just the ISD troops should number about a quarter-billion stormtroopers, if one assumes that each star destroyer carries a full complement of troops.

I would wager a chapter could possibly fight an ISD and its entire stormtrooper complement to a standstill. That just leaves 24,999 more ISDs to bind, plus assorted other vessels.

[Anarchist Bunny]

A 1/4 billion? 250 million stormies in one ISD? WTF!

[Shinova]

A 1/4 billion? 250 million stormies in one ISD? WTF!

He probably meant quarter-million

[Mr Bean]

Oooh no he ment Billion, See they just hided behind the Couch when your looking

[Anarchist Bunny]

Wait a sec. *looks at the poster* More Rabbits coming into MY terrirory.

Kill. Destroy. Burn. Naw.

[Pablo Sanchez]

A 1/4 billion? 250 million stormies in one ISD? WTF!

He meant total Stormtroopers attached to the entire ISD fleet of 25,000 ships.

[SylasGaunt]

Space marines are to heavly armored for the stormies. Space marines take it

Not if you're playing by the WH40K rules. Stormtroopers use plasma weapons, and plasma weapons tear through space marine armor like it's not even there. That would be a major equalizer for the stormtroopers. Even the tactical dreadnought armor worn by space marine terminator squads does not stand up well to plasma weapons.

Insane close combat power is the major strength of space marines fighting stormtroopers.

Provided of course that Stormtrooper blasters are as powerful as IoM plasma weapons which are anti-armor weapons.

And it's not like Space Marine armor is especially vulnerable to plasma (it's more resitant according to Inquisitor).

And for a final counter, Tau pulse rifles/carbines and Burst Cannons are all plasma weapons, yet they don't punch straight through SM armor (in fact in Kill Team one space marine withstood concentrated burst cannon fire from several Tau battlesuits without going down).

[SylasGaunt]

Space marines are to heavly armored for the stormies. Space marines take it

Not if you're playing by the WH40K rules. Stormtroopers use plasma weapons, and plasma weapons tear through space marine armor like it's not even there. That would be a major equalizer for the stormtroopers. Even the tactical dreadnought armor worn by space marine terminator squads does not stand up well to plasma weapons.

Insane close combat power is the major strength of space marines fighting stormtroopers.

Provided of course that Stormtrooper blasters are as powerful as IoM plasma weapons which are anti-armor weapons.

And it's not like Space Marine armor is especially vulnerable to plasma (it's more resitant according to Inquisitor).

And for a final counter, Tau pulse rifles/carbines and Burst Cannons are all plasma weapons, yet they don't punch straight through SM armor (in fact in Kill Team one space marine withstood concentrated burst cannon fire from several Tau battlesuits without going down).

[white_rabbit]

Space marines are to heavly armored for the stormies. Space marines take it

Not if you're playing by the WH40K rules. Stormtroopers use plasma weapons, and plasma weapons tear through space marine armor like it's not even there. That would be a major equalizer for the stormtroopers. Even the tactical dreadnought armor worn by space marine terminator squads does not stand up well to plasma weapons.

Insane close combat power is the major strength of space marines fighting stormtroopers.

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

You MUST be kidding, or INSANE!!!


Okay, accepting you theory (NOT) lets have a look at the effects of plasma weapons in 40k..

First, the lowly plasma pistol..which blows tanks apart...

A Commissar fired his plas pistol at a 2 ton armoured animal, which could ram tanks off a road.. the plasma pistols beam blew a massive crater in the beast, and flung the TWO TON animal across a road wide enough to take tanks (Honour guard, by Dan Abnett)

A plasma pistol beam will INSTANTLY kill a normal human if it hits them, not because it shocks them, or some other pathetic treknobabble effect like phasers have (just an example )

Because it INCINERATES THEM!!

In a Space Marine army, you are likely to encounter, plasma pistols, missiles, plasma rifles, and plasma CANNON!


You bloody idiot, there are plenty of plasma based weapons in the 40k universe, but do they all do the same thing...NO THEY DONT!

By your logic, just because the Stormys guns use plasma, like for example Tau Pulse Carbines, Rifles, Burst Cannon, Eldar Grenades, etc etc they should instantly have a similar effect to the Imperiums tank-busting plasma weapons...

Insane close combat power is the major strength of space marines fighting stormtroopers.

[NecronLord]

Space marines are to heavly armored for the stormies. Space marines take it

Not if you're playing by the WH40K rules. Stormtroopers use plasma weapons, and plasma weapons tear through space marine armor like it's not even there. That would be a major equalizer for the stormtroopers. Even the tactical dreadnought armor worn by space marine terminator squads does not stand up well to plasma weapons.

Insane close combat power is the major strength of space marines fighting stormtroopers.

You mean a Neon Sign can destroy a marine? This is trekkie style idiocy on a par with the turbolasers can not hurt navigational deflectors argument.

[Patrick Ogaard]

Space marines are to heavly armored for the stormies. Space marines take it

Not if you're playing by the WH40K rules. Stormtroopers use plasma weapons, and plasma weapons tear through space marine armor like it's not even there. That would be a major equalizer for the stormtroopers. Even the tactical dreadnought armor worn by space marine terminator squads does not stand up well to plasma weapons.

Insane close combat power is the major strength of space marines fighting stormtroopers.

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

You MUST be kidding, or INSANE!!!


Okay, accepting you theory (NOT) lets have a look at the effects of plasma weapons in 40k..

First, the lowly plasma pistol..which blows tanks apart...

A Commissar fired his plas pistol at a 2 ton armoured animal, which could ram tanks off a road.. the plasma pistols beam blew a massive crater in the beast, and flung the TWO TON animal across a road wide enough to take tanks (Honour guard, by Dan Abnett)

A plasma pistol beam will INSTANTLY kill a normal human if it hits them, not because it shocks them, or some other pathetic treknobabble effect like phasers have (just an example )

Because it INCINERATES THEM!!

In a Space Marine army, you are likely to encounter, plasma pistols, missiles, plasma rifles, and plasma CANNON!


You bloody idiot, there are plenty of plasma based weapons in the 40k universe, but do they all do the same thing...NO THEY DONT!

By your logic, just because the Stormys guns use plasma, like for example Tau Pulse Carbines, Rifles, Burst Cannon, Eldar Grenades, etc etc they should instantly have a similar effect to the Imperiums tank-busting plasma weapons...

Insane close combat power is the major strength of space marines fighting stormtroopers.

Should you not accept the anti-armor capabilities of an E-11 blaster rifle compared to IOM armor, that's certainly your right. (And I won't even call you an idiot. Twit, maybe, but not idiot.)

Imperial blasters have variable firepower. Maximum power blasts, normally reserved for hardened or heavily armored targets, have considerable power. The heavy clonetrooper rifle, virtually identical to the more recent heavy stormtrooper rifle, has a maximum power shot that will punch a .5m crater in a reinforced conrete wall. Han Solo's hotshotted handgun has similar performance at a cost of reduced ammunition capacity. Four quick shots from Han's pistol are sufficient to terminate a 3 meter tall armored humanoid war robot of Xim the Despot. A single tight beam blaster pistol shot by the gunman Gallandro, fired from a range of 50 to 60 meters, has the same effect. Added to that, a tripod-stabilized heavy blaster rifle has an effective maximum range of 10 kilometers.

The major differences between Imperial-issue blasters and the plasma guns produced by the Adeptus Mechanicus would be in the areas of reliability, range and ammunition capacity. Imperial-issue blaster sidearms do not overheat unless they are used in full automatic fire, whereas IoM plasma guns have about a 17% chance per firing action of overheating and severely injuring the gunner. An Imperial-issue rifle has a maximum range, on a stabilized mount, of 10 kilometers, whereas an IoM-issue plasma rifle's range does not exceed that of a conventional autorifle (estimated maximum effective range would be .5 to 1 km at best, possibly boostable to 1 to 2 km with a stabilized mount). An Imperial-issue blaster small arm normally has an ammunition capacity of 25 to 500 shots, depending on the blast intensity selected; an IoM plasma small arm has an ammunition capacity of 20 shots, 10 shots per cell or flask painstakingly screwed into the corresponding receptacle.

Regarding the armored beast, the plasma pistol performance mentioned is not exactly impressive, all things considered. A two-ton beast with armor is, at best, going to be the size of a rhinoceros (max. weight according to The New Larousse Encyclopedia of Animals is 2,000 kg), and if the armor plating has any significant mass, rather smaller than that. Even a bodybuilding cybernetic rhinoceros on steroids and PCP will not be a threat to a tank and will not be able to ram a tank off a road. The very lightest of historical tanks weighed in at around 10 tons. A more realistic weight for somethin the size of a Leman Russ would be that of a modern main battle tank, or a WW2 medium tank: roughly 50-60 tons. Even if the 2-ton beast is capable of ramming and pushing aside 5 times its own mass, that means it might be able to push a lightly armored armored personnel carrier out of the way, and that under risk of hernia and a headache. A 2-ton beast able to push a tracked (and thus high-traction) 50-ton tank (25 times its own body mass) aside is ludicrous. It might conceivably be able to pull a cart or sled load of that mass, but not push a tank of that mass.

So what exactly happened? Simple: the beast suffered a massive reaction to being shot, especially to having a big smoking crater shot into its body. It is exactly the same thing that happens when a deer is struck by a hunter's bullet. Ordinarily, the deer simply drops dead or near-dead if shot properly. But the bullet can also induce a sudden and drastic physical reaction on the part of the deer; complete sommersaults from a standing start are not unkown.

Both the AoTC Visual Dictionary and the SW Visual Dictionary agree that the blaster rifles and blaster carbines/sidearms of clonetroopers and stormtroopers respectively differ primarily in terms of the greater range provided by the long-barreled rifles. Simple deduction from that indicates that a maximum power shot from a stormtrooper E-11 blaster sidearm, which should have at least equivalent firepower to the older weapons of their clonetrooper forerunners, can produce a plasma bolt sufficient to blow a half-meter crater in a wall of steel-reinforced concrete. Han Solo's heavy blaster pistol has equivalent firepower per shot. A bolt sufficient to blow a hole half a meter feet deep and wide in the side of a reinforced concrete bunker should do considerably worse to the armored hide of a roughly rhino-sized critter.

Had the plasma pistol in the incident you quoted put out sufficient kinetic energy with one shot to push a 2-ton critter just five meters -- cetainly the absolute minimum width for a tank lane -- the shooter's hand and arm should have neatly disconnected from the shoulder socket and flown in the opposite direction, complete with plasma pistol, to land some distance away. The only part of an IoM plasma weapon's technology that is supposed to be difficult to produce for the modern Adeptus Mechanicus is the magnetic containment system. I am reasonably certain that recoil-reducing internal grav-suspensor systems would have been mentioned as an important part of the weapon if it were there. Thus, the weapon's recoil can not be more than that of a high-recoil modern pistol. If nutcase Imperial Guard colonels whose only superhuman feature is their insane fanaticism can fire those weapons one-handed, then the recoil can not be more than that. In that case, of course, the weapon can't deliver more kinetic energy to the target than it does to the firer's hand. (This is unlike a bolt pistol, which fires partially self-propelled rockets that certainly can deliver more KE than the firer's hand and arm could handle.) Thus, it has to be the combination of the high velocity of the hydrodgen plasma bolt and the extremely high temperature of that jet that produces the plasma bolt's effect: the jet physically blasts into the target material, penetrates some distance based on the toughness of the target material, and dumps its heat into the material, leading to unpleasant effects.

As for the weapons of the Tau, well, apparently the Tau weapons amount to little more than downrated plasma weapons of the sort that might have been used instead of bolt weapons during the Dark Ages of Technology. Since the Tau pulse weapons are apparently bound by the same basic engineering constraints as IoM plasma weapons, the Tau obviously traded off sheer firepower per shot for increased reliability, range and volume of firepower.

Vehicular or devastator squad plasma cannon have identical firepower to plama pistols and plasma guns (rifles), merely adding a blast effect due to the larger volume of plasma delivered. Beyond the scale of heavy blaster rifles, heavier Imperial blaster weapons actually improve their antiarmor capabilities.

As for plasma grenades, they are not DIRECTED plasma weapons, you dolt! Thus it is a red herring. In the 1998 version of WH40K (there may be a more current version that came out while I wasn't looking), plasma grenades are little more than a means of making the enemy duck while closing with them, and hardly more effective than regular grenades. Were we to bring grenades into the equation, we'd have to include the thermal detonators issued as standard gear to stormtroopers, as well as all the other gimcrackery, such as the mobile mortar sleds (which can also carry E-Web heavy repeating blasters) manned by biker scouts, or 6-shot missile tubes that fire homing or dumb-fired miniature proton torpedoes capable of wiping out combat airspeeders with one shot or significantly damaging AT-ATs or starfighters with a lucky shot.

[Patrick Ogaard]

A 1/4 billion? 250 million stormies in one ISD? WTF!

He meant total Stormtroopers attached to the entire ISD fleet of 25,000 ships.

Precisely. That would not be counting planetary garrison forces, or those troops stationed on other vessels than the ISDs.

[Patrick Ogaard]

Space marines are to heavly armored for the stormies. Space marines take it

Not if you're playing by the WH40K rules. Stormtroopers use plasma weapons, and plasma weapons tear through space marine armor like it's not even there. That would be a major equalizer for the stormtroopers. Even the tactical dreadnought armor worn by space marine terminator squads does not stand up well to plasma weapons.

Insane close combat power is the major strength of space marines fighting stormtroopers.

You mean a Neon Sign can destroy a marine? This is trekkie style idiocy on a par with the turbolasers can not hurt navigational deflectors argument.

Point 1: Imperium of Man plasma guns (pistols, rifles AKA "guns", and manpack or vehicular cannon) heat hydrogen gas into a plasma, contain it magnetically and shoot the high heat plasma at targets to catastrophic effect.

Point 2: Galactic Empire plasma small arms (blaster pistols, carbines, riot guns, rifles, etc.) heat "blaster gas" into a plasma, contain it magnetically and shoot the high heat plasma at targets to catastrophic effect.

High energy DIRECTED plasma guns like Imperial blasters and IoM plasma guns are extremely good against armor in both the Star Wars and WH40K universes.

What I was not talking about was relatively low energy DIRECTED plasma discharges, like B5 Earthforce PPG small arms, nor was I talking about omnidirectional plasma attacks. An Earthforce PPG, much like a Tau pulse small arm, would not tear right through space marine armor, anymore than a common IoM lasgun would.

The important thing to remember here is that Imperial-issue blaster weapons can be used as both: low-powered antipersonnel weapons suitable for engaging lightly protected opponents like Imperial Guard infantry, and high-powered weapons suitable for blowing nasty holes in heavily armored targets.

My erroneous assumption here was that we'd all be familiar with the basic capabilities of Imperial blaster weaponry, making it unnecessary to add in all manner of tedious explanations and explications. I also assumed that it would be painfully obvious that I meant, specifically, plasma weapons displaying the same terminal characteristics as the plasma guns used by the Imperium of Man: guns that shoot a directed bolt of high energy plasma to knock really big, really nasty holes in stuff.

[His Divine Shadow]

The two ships wont engage, mainly because I dont want 40k debaters to just say the Strike Cruiser blows the ISD away and frags the planet.

Why can't the ISD do the same instead?

[His Divine Shadow]

Provided of course that Stormtrooper blasters are as powerful as IoM plasma weapons which are anti-armor weapons.

Megajoule ranged weapons, I remember this 40k weapon rated at a couple of Megawatts myself that took on tanks.

[His Divine Shadow]

You bloody idiot, there are plenty of plasma based weapons in the 40k universe, but do they all do the same thing...NO THEY DONT!

Thank you, you now have answered the question you asked me in the gaming forum on SB.

[Antediluvian]

I didn't find it tedious at all, Patrick. Thanks for the info. Where did you find out about mortar sleds?

Off-Topic: Hi, white_rabbit, I wondered when you were going to show up here. Remember me? I used to post at Space Battles.

[Patrick Ogaard]

I didn't find it tedious at all, Patrick. Thanks for the info. Where did you find out about mortar sleds?

Off-Topic: Hi, white_rabbit, I wondered when you were going to show up here. Remember me? I used to post at Space Battles.

Thanks.

It's a tenouous sort of thing, but it's official EU and not contradicted by canon. The relevant quote is in "The Essential Guide to Weapons and Technology."

"The large ammunition lokcer set underneath the pilot's station holds five hundred grenades, which can be fed directly into the mortar through the reload tube. The WW-676 also can carry and E-Web repeating blaster with the power generator mounted inside the ammunition locker. MobileMortar-3 units are assigned to army platoons as support, or four of them may operate as a light mechanized infantry squad. Pilots and gunners are either army specialists or biker scouts."

The entry is on page 46 of my edition of the book, and the illustration of the system on the facing page (47) inlcudes two humanoid silhouettes as pilot and gunner, both clearly wearing biker scout helmets and backpacks.

The mortar sleds are fast two-seaters with a top speed of 250 km/h, "exceptional" acceleration and a flight ceiling of 30 meters. It comes closest in appearance to the original space marine landspeeders from WH40K: an open, terribly exposed two-man platform with heavy firepower and the ability to make high speed attacks. Obviously, no ISD-based stormtrooper force that even includes an inventory of prefab fortresses should be without a few.

[NecronLord]

Not if you're playing by the WH40K rules. Stormtroopers use plasma weapons, and plasma weapons tear through space marine armor like it's not even there. That would be a major equalizer for the stormtroopers. Even the tactical dreadnought armor worn by space marine terminator squads does not stand up well to plasma weapons.

Insane close combat power is the major strength of space marines fighting stormtroopers.

You mean a Neon Sign can destroy a marine? This is trekkie style idiocy on a par with the turbolasers can not hurt navigational deflectors argument.

Point 1: Imperium of Man plasma guns (pistols, rifles AKA "guns", and manpack or vehicular cannon) heat hydrogen gas into a plasma, contain it magnetically and shoot the high heat plasma at targets to catastrophic effect.

Actually if you look carefully, its Duterium, fusion occours in the plasma bolt

Point 2: Galactic Empire plasma small arms (blaster pistols, carbines, riot guns, rifles, etc.) heat "blaster gas" into a plasma, contain it magnetically and shoot the high heat plasma at targets to catastrophic effect.

High energy DIRECTED plasma guns like Imperial blasters and IoM plasma guns are extremely good against armor in both the Star Wars and WH40K universes.

What I was not talking about was relatively low energy DIRECTED plasma discharges, like B5 Earthforce PPG small arms, nor was I talking about omnidirectional plasma attacks. An Earthforce PPG, much like a Tau pulse small arm, would not tear right through space marine armor, anymore than a common IoM lasgun would.

The important thing to remember here is that Imperial-issue blaster weapons can be used as both: low-powered antipersonnel weapons suitable for engaging lightly protected opponents like Imperial Guard infantry, and high-powered weapons suitable for blowing nasty holes in heavily armored targets.

My erroneous assumption here was that we'd all be familiar with the basic capabilities of Imperial blaster weaponry, making it unnecessary to add in all manner of tedious explanations and explications. I also assumed that it would be painfully obvious that I meant, specifically, plasma weapons displaying the same terminal characteristics as the plasma guns used by the Imperium of Man: guns that shoot a directed bolt of high energy plasma to knock really big, really nasty holes in stuff.

Right, one not only are you comparing a pistol to a carbine.


Your erroneous assumption here is that an E-11 is identical to a plasma gun. Plasma guns fire fusion plasma, at around 10,000 degrees celsius If an e-11 had anywhere near that firepower not only would it have killed solo when the blast passes within a few inches of him in the Detention Block, it wooulf also, when in the novellisiation, Luke turns it up to full power, probably have blasted away the door in one shot.

This is trekkie logic.