Nazis + A-bomb = ?

[LordShaithis]

December 7th, 1941: Merry early Christmas, Hitler. Since the Americans will be coming for you, here are the complete blueprints for an atomic bomb. Get to work on what you need to do in order to begin manufacturing them.

What happens? How long does it take them to develop a working bomb? Does Britain surrender? Is the western USSR blasted into a wasteland? How badly will the US fare? When we get our own bomb, will we slug it out with the Nazis in an atomic war, or will the Cold War begin early with Germany replacing the USSR?

[Col. Crackpot]

milions die on the Eastern front as the Nazis nuke the Russians and push through Stalingrad only to get sick and die of radiation poisoning.

[Rogue 9]

Basically what he said. Then Hitler proceeds to demand the surrender of the world to his rule. Man, this would suck monkey balls.

[Sea Skimmer]

The Germans did not have the resources to build a bomb, even if they where handed the blueprints in 1941. They also lack an effective delivery system, they'd probably be stuck using a kamikaze cargo plane.

[The Aliens]

Would they be able to mount a nuclear warhead on a V-2 and send it on it's merry way? 'Cause that would be pretty bad for France, Britain, Russia and any poor sod that tries to storm a beach...

[Glocksman]

You could give the Nazis the blueprints back in 1941, but they still wouldn't have a means to create either the plutonium or the weapons grade uranium needed to build the bomb.

To make the Christmas present effective, you'd have to give him a few hundred pounds of weapons grade fissile material to go with the blueprints.

[Sea Skimmer]

Would they be able to mount a nuclear warhead on a V-2 and send it on it's merry way? 'Cause that would be pretty bad for France, Britain, Russia and any poor sod that tries to storm a beach...

Early nuclear warheads weighed over 9,000 pounds each; the V-2 could carry a warhead of only 2,200 pounds. It also had a CEP of around 17 kilometers, 10.625 miles. That means they could fling the thing at a target the size of London and easily miss. In fact that combine with low reliability (among other things the thin walled fuel tanks often exploded in flight or during fueling) meant that only about 40% of the V-2's historically fired at this largest of targets actually hit the city. It's rather important that the first nuke is very destructive and forces a surrender (though that's unlikely no matter what they hit) because the British and Americans and Russians had huge stocks of chemical and biological weapons ready to go. The 8th Air Force and Bomber command carpeting Germany with anthrax and mustard gas would not be pleasant.

Before anyone claims "but they could just build a bigger missile" you should realize that they where actively trying to do just that, and the technical challenges are massive and the costs immense. Germany was highly strained by its historic weapons programs. Building bigger rockets or a nuclear weapon require resources and in the case of the former technology that doesn't exist. Simply building a decent four-engine bomber to delivery the non-existent nuke would be a pain, though starting from 1941 should be doable. But in the end the Allies have more to gain from this from the Germans. They lose a couple large bomber raids, which must go towards blowing away the additional nuclear facilities, while the Germans loss untold industrial and technical resources futility trying to build the bomb.

[Howedar]

If they started in 1941, they might ditch the damned fool dive bombing capability for whichever bomber it was and go for level bombing. It wouldn't matter in the final analysis, but they *might* have a delivery system.

[Sea Skimmer]

If they started in 1941, they might ditch the damned fool dive bombing capability for whichever bomber it was and go for level bombing. It wouldn't matter in the final analysis, but they *might* have a delivery system.

Your thinking He 177, but beyond the requirement that it could dive bomb the plane was horribly flawed in that it used two pairs of coupled engines for power, an arrangement which tending to explode into flames on a regular basis. But anyway, it had a very fucked up bomb load, its seems that while it was designed by something like 13,000 pounds internally in practice the bays would only hold about 5000. So perhapes with alot of modfication the He 177 could do the job, assuming it didn't explode on the way to the target or from one of its other massive problumes.

Starting in 1941 there where two other historic programs, the He 274 and 277 to try and build a similar aircraft only with four separate engines. However the 274 wasn't ready until 1945, and only ever flew under French colors post war, while the 277 was canned in June 1944 while still in development, the order had gone out to fuck heavy bombers and build nothing but fighters.

[Stravo]

What's stopping them from driving a truck into the front lines, ordering troops to quietly withdraw and when the Russians advance....BOOM...you just knocked a hole in their spearhead.

The delivery system problem woudl exist against the western allies but in the East it would be failry simple.

You could also have one handy by rail or truck on the Atlantic Wall. As soon as the allies drive onto Normandy you motor the bomb over, plant it among the forwrad parts of the fortifications and let loose.

It's brutal primitive and will cost you many of your own men but what other choice do they have?

[Sea Skimmer]

What's stopping them from driving a truck into the front lines, ordering troops to quietly withdraw and when the Russians advance....BOOM...you just knocked a hole in their spearhead.

Great, use a two billion dollar two year investment just wiped out at best a few days production of T-34's. What a mighty return. A ground bursting 15 kiloton bomb is not a very potent weapon for the broad expanses of the eastern front

The delivery system problem woudl exist against the western allies but in the East it would be failry simple.

And also an ineffective waste.

You could also have one handy by rail or truck on the Atlantic Wall. As soon as the allies drive onto Normandy you motor the bomb over, plant it among the forwrad parts of the fortifications and let loose.

An excellent way to lose the bomb to Typhoons or P-47's.

It's brutal primitive and will cost you many of your own men but what other choice do they have?

Don't bother wasting resources on a weapon which you can't hope to build nor employ.

[His Divine Shadow]

milions die on the Eastern front as the Nazis nuke the Russians and push through Stalingrad only to get sick and die of radiation poisoning.

Radiation's not that bad from a-bombs

[His Divine Shadow]

December 7th, 1941: Merry early Christmas, Hitler. Since the Americans will be coming for you, here are the complete blueprints for an atomic bomb. Get to work on what you need to do in order to begin manufacturing them.

If they get it like in 1938 I think they might have a better chance.
It'd probably be used against the russians and after they got that over with they could focus on the western front.

[Solauren]

All the Nazi's would have had to do is build one, detonate it near Russia, and go 'Look what we can do, SURRENDER'.

Russia would have screamed in terror (wouldn't you) and the allies would have been smart to sue for peace.

I mean, as far as they know, the Nazi's could have more, including ones hiding un U-boats off the coast of North America.

[The Aliens]

All the Nazi's would have had to do is build one, detonate it near Russia, and go 'Look what we can do, SURRENDER'.

Bollocks- the States dropped two nuclear weapons on cities and the Japanese still contemplated fighting it out. The difference is that Germnay would nevr be able to deliver nukes deep into Russia, which is where the Russians would have inevitably run to.

[Sharp-kun]

The Germans did not have the resources to build a bomb, even if they where handed the blueprints in 1941. They also lack an effective delivery system, they'd probably be stuck using a kamikaze cargo plane.

Sure I head on Discovery that they had some bomber capable of reaching New York.

[His Divine Shadow]

Bollocks- the States dropped two nuclear weapons on cities and the Japanese still contemplated fighting it out. The difference is that Germnay would nevr be able to deliver nukes deep into Russia, which is where the Russians would have inevitably run to.

The japs where a bit... special in that regard, the russians would fold much easier.

[Mayabird]

All the Nazi's would have had to do is build one, detonate it near Russia, and go 'Look what we can do, SURRENDER'.

Bollocks- the States dropped two nuclear weapons on cities and the Japanese still contemplated fighting it out. The difference is that Germnay would nevr be able to deliver nukes deep into Russia, which is where the Russians would have inevitably run to.

That might not be a good parallel. According to my grandmother's accounts towards the end of the war people in Japan were getting insane. Heck, she was supposed to learn how to make and use bamboo spears to use to attack an American invasion force. She had no idea what was really going on most of the time, and probably neither did most other people.

PS HDS I'm guessng from your location that you're not a native English speaker, so for future reference "Jap" is considered a derogatory term).

[Dartzap]

im actually watching a programe this vary minate, about how Htler had made a plan to nuke Now york, the plane that was going to be used, look almost like the plane you have to commendeer in MOH:Frontline

apprently there was a large threat to america and they had no real defence against such a thing

[Sharp-kun]

im actually watching a programe this vary minate, about how Htler had made a plan to nuke Now york, the plane that was going to be used, look almost like the plane you have to commendeer in MOH:Frontline

apprently there was a large threat to america and they had no real defence against such a thing

Quite possibly the program I refered to earlier.

[Illuminatus Primus]

The Sanger Amerika Bomber?

[Howedar]

Your thinking He 177, but beyond the requirement that it could dive bomb the plane was horribly flawed in that it used two pairs of coupled engines for power, an arrangement which tending to explode into flames on a regular basis. But anyway, it had a very fucked up bomb load, its seems that while it was designed by something like 13,000 pounds internally in practice the bays would only hold about 5000. So perhapes with alot of modfication the He 177 could do the job, assuming it didn't explode on the way to the target or from one of its other massive problumes.

Yes, but the four-in-two arrangement stemmed entirely from the dive bombing requirement. In fact, IIRC once Goering caught wind of it he wanted the thing cancelled/returned to a level flight bomber, and eventually the Germans tried remaking it as a standard four-engined bomber. By then, it was too late. With the added impetus of a nuclear weapon to deliver, they might have gotten off of their asses faster and committed more resources to the project.

[Sharp-kun]

The Sanger Amerika Bomber?

Horton 18 I believe. I'll google it.

[Sea Skimmer]

Yes, but the four-in-two arrangement stemmed entirely from the dive bombing requirement. In fact, IIRC once Goering caught wind of it he wanted the thing cancelled/returned to a level flight bomber,

He did no such thing, in fact he directed that all efforts be made to make it work, and banned all further talk about bombers using four seperate engines. The coupled engines where to reduce drag for greater range, for dive bombing more drag is better since it gives a slower dive speed which gives more time for lining up.

and eventually the Germans tried remaking it as a standard four-engined bomber. By then, it was too late. With the added impetus of a nuclear weapon to deliver, they might have gotten off of their asses faster and committed more resources to the project.

What happened is Heinkel had the resources to push forward a secret four-engine bomber program, which was later presented directly to Hitler who gave the go ahead. However even with that, one design wasn't even ready in 1945 and as I mentioned only flew post war for the French, while the other was canned far from service in 1944. Course even if one did get into service, survivability against allied fighters in 1944, the earliest which service would be reasonable, will be minimal.

[Sea Skimmer]

Sure I head on Discovery that they had some bomber capable of reaching New York.

The Ju 390, of which only a few prototypes were ever flown, it was a six-engine cargo plane someone decided might make a good bomber. However because it was a cargo plane, its structure didn't allow for an internal bomb bay. I highly doubt its structure would allow for hanging the bomb externally, so your left with the kamikaze cargo plane option I mentioned as being the only possibility. It would be fodder for any defence.

Edit: It just occurred to me that some people might not see what the big deal about using a kamikaze cargo plane is. Aside fomr the whole "its a cargo plane" thing, The problem is that with a 15-20 kiloton nuclear bomb you need to explode it low to cause significant ground damage. That means flying the plane down to 2000 feet or so. At that altitude the lumbering target would be at risk from even 20mm guns, and be a tasty snack for anything in the 40mm range. Finding a willing crew would also be very difficult; the Nazi's for all there fanaticism only began considering pure suicide missions in the very last year of the war.

All the Nazi's would have had to do is build one, detonate it near Russia, and go 'Look what we can do, SURRENDER'.

Russia would have screamed in terror (wouldn't you) and the allies would have been smart to sue for peace.

No what happens is the Russians say "our turn" and unleash biological and chemical weapons on the German armies. Unlike the Japanese in 1945, the Russians can hit back and extremely hard. The situation is very different.

I mean, as far as they know, the Nazi's could have more, including ones hiding un U-boats off the coast of North America.

And the Nazi's know that 2000 bombers can be over Berlin within the day, unleashing 10,000 tons of Mustard gas. And unlike a one or two shot atomic deal, they can keep coming back.

But anyway none of this matters because Germany does not have the industrial resources to build an atomic bomb, assuming there scientists would even accept the plans. As it was even America's resources where strained, even with most of the worlds resources to call on it was impossible to get anything like enough copper to make all the bus bars needed for the U-235 extraction process. In the end some 14,000 tons of Silver was borrowed from the treasury and used. I highly doubt the Germans who had a far worse copper shortage was many times worse and whose government was short on specie could come up with that. I'm sure their fuel crisis will easily support all the extra thousands of megawatts of electrical power needed, dispute the fact that at the peak the Manhattan Project consumed 1/7 of the US's far larger total electrical power production... Nope it's just not happening, not in a nation with a third of the US's resources at best, not in any other nation but the US so long as the war goes on.

Giving Germany bomb plans perhapes provides some interesting new targets for Allied Bombers, and some interesting records for investigators to dig up post war. Nothing more.