Nazis + A-bomb = ?

OT: anything goes!

Moderator: Edi

Howedar
Emperor's Thumb
Posts: 12472
Joined: 2002-07-03 05:06pm
Location: St. Paul, MN

Post by Howedar »

Sea Skimmer wrote:He did no such thing, in fact he directed that all efforts be made to make it work, and banned all further talk about bombers using four seperate engines. The coupled engines where to reduce drag for greater range, for dive bombing more drag is better since it gives a slower dive speed which gives more time for lining up.
I read a direct quote from Goering about the issue, although the book it was in is a thousand miles away. Something about how he was talking with the designer and said trying to make a 34 ton dive bomber was lunacy and would never work, and had he caught wind of it at the start he'd have prevented such a waste of resources.

I guess that could be Goering playing both sides and just trying to pacify the designer, but that's not the impression I got.
Howedar is no longer here. Need to talk to him? Talk to Pick.
User avatar
Queeb Salaron
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 2337
Joined: 2003-03-12 12:45am
Location: Left of center.

Post by Queeb Salaron »

I know little about the Nazis (as an English major I prefer to surround myself with those things that are literary as opposed to historical, though I did read Mein Kampf), but this is what I imagine would happen:

Nazis + Nuclear bomb = radioactive UK, Russia, France, and/or Israel.
Proud owner of The Fleshlight
G.A.L.E. Force - Bisexual Airborn Division
SDnet Resident Psycho Clown

"I hear and behold God in every object, yet I understand God not in the least, / Nor do I understand who there can be more wonderful than myself."
--Whitman

Fucking Funny.
User avatar
Sea Skimmer
Yankee Capitalist Air Pirate
Posts: 37390
Joined: 2002-07-03 11:49pm
Location: Passchendaele City, HAB

Post by Sea Skimmer »

Queeb Salaron wrote:I know little about the Nazis (as an English major I prefer to surround myself with those things that are literary as opposed to historical, though I did read Mein Kampf), but this is what I imagine would happen:

Nazis + Nuclear bomb = radioactive UK, Russia, France, and/or Israel.
Why would they nuke a country which doesn't exist yet and has no war industries or military? (Isreal) Even better quesiton is why the fuck would they nuke a country filled with there own occupation forces? (France)

Look, forget learning about the Nazi's; I suggest you find a basic history of WW2 and read that, its useful information to have.
"This cult of special forces is as sensible as to form a Royal Corps of Tree Climbers and say that no soldier who does not wear its green hat with a bunch of oak leaves stuck in it should be expected to climb a tree"
— Field Marshal William Slim 1956
User avatar
Queeb Salaron
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 2337
Joined: 2003-03-12 12:45am
Location: Left of center.

Post by Queeb Salaron »

Sea Skimmer wrote:Why would they nuke a country which doesn't exist yet and has no war industries or military? (Isreal) Even better quesiton is why the fuck would they nuke a country filled with there own occupation forces. (France)
Ah yes, there was a date specified in the OP, wasn't there. I had assumed that we were talking about pre-blitzkreig Nazis.

As for Israel, I was more referring to what is present-day Israel, and more specifically the people living there (jews).

And again, I know little about WWII.
Proud owner of The Fleshlight
G.A.L.E. Force - Bisexual Airborn Division
SDnet Resident Psycho Clown

"I hear and behold God in every object, yet I understand God not in the least, / Nor do I understand who there can be more wonderful than myself."
--Whitman

Fucking Funny.
User avatar
Sea Skimmer
Yankee Capitalist Air Pirate
Posts: 37390
Joined: 2002-07-03 11:49pm
Location: Passchendaele City, HAB

Post by Sea Skimmer »

Queeb Salaron wrote: Ah yes, there was a date specified in the OP, wasn't there. I had assumed that we were talking about pre-blitzkreig Nazis.
Next time read the first post..

As for Israel, I was more referring to what is present-day Israel, and more specifically the people living there (jews).

And again, I know little about WWII.
In 1941 Hitler was working with many of the Arabs, one thing I'm sure you don't know is that in 1941 German aircraft where sent into Iraq to help that country in its failed attempt to wipe out British forces within the country. In addition several Arab leaders, notably Haj Amin Al-Husseini, later a mentor of Yasser Arafat, spent time in Berlin plotting the downfall of the Jews and a new Arab revolt against the British.

Nuking Palestine would waste a bomb, and cost Hitler some potential allies. He might have been crazy, but he wasn't so bad that he'd use such a powerful weapon to kill Jews, rather then killing the allies, since once there defeated Finnal Solution can go ahead unimpeded.
"This cult of special forces is as sensible as to form a Royal Corps of Tree Climbers and say that no soldier who does not wear its green hat with a bunch of oak leaves stuck in it should be expected to climb a tree"
— Field Marshal William Slim 1956
User avatar
Queeb Salaron
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 2337
Joined: 2003-03-12 12:45am
Location: Left of center.

Post by Queeb Salaron »

Sea Skimmer wrote:In 1941 Hitler was working with many of the Arabs, one thing I'm sure you don't know is that in 1941 German aircraft where sent into Iraq to help that country in its failed attempt to wipe out British forces within the country. In addition several Arab leaders, notably Haj Amin Al-Husseini, later a mentor of Yasser Arafat, spent time in Berlin plotting the downfall of the Jews and a new Arab revolt against the British.

Nuking Palestine would waste a bomb, and cost Hitler some potential allies. He might have been crazy, but he wasn't so bad that he'd use such a powerful weapon to kill Jews, rather then killing the allies, since once there defeated Finnal Solution can go ahead unimpeded.
Ah. Quite. As you were.
Proud owner of The Fleshlight
G.A.L.E. Force - Bisexual Airborn Division
SDnet Resident Psycho Clown

"I hear and behold God in every object, yet I understand God not in the least, / Nor do I understand who there can be more wonderful than myself."
--Whitman

Fucking Funny.
User avatar
Perinquus
Virus-X Wannabe
Posts: 2685
Joined: 2002-08-06 11:57pm

Post by Perinquus »

Sea Skimmer wrote:The Germans did not have the resources to build a bomb, even if they where handed the blueprints in 1941. They also lack an effective delivery system, they'd probably be stuck using a kamikaze cargo plane.
They wouldn't necessarily need suicide pilots. They might very well be able to adapt their Mistel concept, which they developed to compensate for their lack of a heavy bomber to fill the tactical niche that U.S. Fortresses and Liberators, and British Lancasters did.

Image

Though they might need to develop the capability with a larger plane.

The Mistel was tested operationally, and actually proved successful. The fighter pilot would fly the composite to the target, then release, and guide the unmanned, explosive-filled bomber in by remote control.

Also, if the Nazis had somehow gained the ability to make an a-bomb, I think it is entirely reasonable to suppose that they would have made the development of a larger rocket than the V2 an extremely high priority, and devoted the necessary resources, especially given how fanatical Hitler was for offensive "super weapons". I realize they were wroking on this already, but they were also working on other "super weapons" which might have been scrapped or postponed in order to devote the maximum available resources to this project. To simply write it off by flatly saying: "Nope. Even if they got the bomb there's no way they could do it." just doesn't take into account the inevitable reordering of priorities that would take place in light of new capabilities. Now they might not develop a larger rocket in time to do them any good, but I think there can be little doubt that they would try.
Last edited by Perinquus on 2004-01-26 07:37pm, edited 1 time in total.
Howedar
Emperor's Thumb
Posts: 12472
Joined: 2002-07-03 05:06pm
Location: St. Paul, MN

Post by Howedar »

Nazi metallurgy was simply not up to the task of a larger rocket, even when development was full-bore for jet engines they couldn't make it work.
Howedar is no longer here. Need to talk to him? Talk to Pick.
User avatar
LordShaithis
Redshirt
Posts: 3179
Joined: 2002-07-08 11:02am
Location: Michigan

Post by LordShaithis »

Wow. It really drives home how fucked Germany was to realize that even the conditions of this scenario wouldn't save them. Is there any amount of technical knowledge that could have allowed them to win?

Hell, what if we just gave them access to the total body of modern scientific knowledge? (But no material support at all. They still have to build up the infrastructure to begin building whatever it is they want.) Can even that save them before they're overrun?

EDIT: The smart thing to do in such a case would be to sue for peace, focus all national effort on exploiting this knowledge, and then dominate the world economically. But let's just assume they fight anyway.
If Religion and Politics were characters on a soap opera, Religion would be the one that goes insane with jealousy over Politics' intimate relationship with Reality, and secretly murder Politics in the night, skin the corpse, and run around its apartment wearing the skin like a cape shouting "My votes now! All votes for me! Wheeee!" -- Lagmonster
User avatar
Glocksman
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 7233
Joined: 2002-09-03 06:43pm
Location: Mr. Five by Five

Post by Glocksman »

It's not so much technical knowledge, but industrial capacity that would be the problem. As I stated earlier, even with bomb blueprints, Germany utterly lacked both the unused industrial capacity and the technical knowhow to make the weapons grade fissile material needed to make the bomb.

I'm sure that the German scientists would eventually have solved the problems involved in manufacturing sufficient quantities of fissile materials, but not in time to make a difference in the war. Not with the RAF and the 8th Air Corps bombing the shit out of Germany every day and night.

Others have pointed out the total lack of a viable delivery system.

By 1942, Germany simply had too many enemies with too many resources to win the war even with A Bomb blueprints dropped into Hitler's lap.

Hell, what if we just gave them access to the total body of modern scientific knowledge? (But no material support at all. They still have to build up the infrastructure to begin building whatever it is they want.) Can even that save them before they're overrun?
You'd have to give it to them in 1936 or so, not at the beginning of 1942.
"You say that it is your custom to burn widows. Very well. We also have a custom: when men burn a woman alive, we tie a rope around their necks and we hang them. Build your funeral pyre; beside it, my carpenters will build a gallows. You may follow your custom. And then we will follow ours."- General Sir Charles Napier

Oderint dum metuant
User avatar
Sea Skimmer
Yankee Capitalist Air Pirate
Posts: 37390
Joined: 2002-07-03 11:49pm
Location: Passchendaele City, HAB

Post by Sea Skimmer »

Perinquus wrote:
They wouldn't necessarily need suicide pilots. They might very well be able to adapt their Mistel concept, which they developed to compensate for their lack of a heavy bomber to fill the tactical niche that U.S. Fortresses and Liberators, and British Lancasters did.

[img]http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/LR ... -1.jpg[img]

Though they might need to develop the capability with a larger plane.

The Mistel was tested operationally, and actually proved successful. The fighter pilot would fly the composite to the target, then release, and guide the unmanned, explosive-filled bomber in by remote control.
While the composite aircraft worked, their guidance links could be easily jammed as often happened, and maneuverability was horrible. IIRC, the guidance link was also very limited in what it could do, the fighter had to stree the aircraft into its terminal dive before releasining. The plane would of course remain fodder for defenses, it would be far worse of acutally since at least the cargo plane in its nomal mode could carry alot of defensive guns.

Also, if the Nazis had somehow gained the ability to make an a-bomb, I think it is entirely reasonable to suppose that they would have made the development of a larger rocket than the V2 an extremely high priority, and devoted the necessary resources, especially given how fanatical Hitler was for offensive "super weapons".
Your starting with a false premise "if they gained the ability to make an A-bomb". That is simply not possibul. If Germany had those resources everything is completely different and where basically discussing a fictional nation in a very different fictional war.

But anyway, the technolgoy and metallurgy where up to the job of building an atomic bomb. They could not support a ballistic missile with four times the throw weight. You can't simply scale the thing up. It took the US and USSR years with greater resources, and the full benfit of all of Germany's work through 1945 to do it. They also had the aid of such useful things as peace.

I realize they were wroking on this already, but they were also working on other "super weapons" which might have been scrapped or postponed in order to devote the maximum available resources to this project.
The entire German system was organized so as to ensure resources where wasted in vast amounts. But even with a maximum effort your not going to get much of a boost. Certainly not one equivalent to years of work by nations of superior resources.

To simply write it off by flatly saying: "Nope. Even if they got the bomb there's no way they could do it." just doesn't take into account the inevitable reordering of priorities that would take place in light of new capabilities. Now they might not develop a larger rocket in time to do them any good, but I think there can be little doubt that they would try.
Sure they'd try, and they'd fail. Look at the reality of the situation. The rest of the world didn't have nuclear capable ballistic missiles until the early 1950's, and those only then could loft nuclear warheads far lighter then the designs of the mid to late 40's. And that was with the benefit of German research and captured weapons and personal. How are the Germans going to do better then nations with three times the resources working in peace at with wartime priories, while having a hard pressed economy and allied bombers roving about by the thousands? It can't be done. All there going to do is waste even more resources.
"This cult of special forces is as sensible as to form a Royal Corps of Tree Climbers and say that no soldier who does not wear its green hat with a bunch of oak leaves stuck in it should be expected to climb a tree"
— Field Marshal William Slim 1956
User avatar
Darth Wong
Sith Lord
Sith Lord
Posts: 70028
Joined: 2002-07-03 12:25am
Location: Toronto, Canada
Contact:

Post by Darth Wong »

If you edited the OP to give them some fissile material in additio to the blueprints (without which the blueprints would be utterly useless to them), Hitler would no doubt think of the most horrible conceivable way to use their bomb (note: bomb as in singular, not bombs; they have no way of building any more), and totally squander it.
Image
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing

"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC

"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness

"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
Post Reply