How to defeat an ISD with Starfleet Resources

[Darth Wong]

FYI, Trek transporters will have relatively little problem beaming through the hull of the ISD.

Reason? In "Think Tank" VGR Voyager was able to beam through a neutronium alloy hull. Trying to claim the hull of an ISD will block Trek transporters is a red herring attempt. Knock it off.

Oh right, why couldn't they beam through certain alloy bulkheads in TNG? Why couldn't they beam through electrical interference?

What the hell is a "neutronium alloy" anyway? Looks like you're just looking for a cheap excuse to dismiss years of Trek precedent.

[Darth Wong]

Irrelevent. I haven't seen any proof that the neutronium element in the ISDs is of any great value.

It doesn't have to be. There are lots of elements which tend to block transporters, not to mention EM interference.

[FOG3]

Can your personel operate an alien ship from a totally different galaxy?

I fail to understand the common assertion that humans attempting to capture an enemy ship also run by humans is going to be so vastly different is design and concept that they wouldn't have a common frame of reference. With any potentially captured Imperials, learning how to move the ship from A to B shouldn't be a task of vast proportions requiring thousands of crewman flipping switches.

Ever tried playing a computer game where you have written options and it's in a completely different language that you can't understand? I have, best thing I could do was hope it did what I wanted it to, quite a bit of the time it didn't.

Galactic standard as we've seen on the Executor bridge at least in my experience doesn't resemble any Earth or Trek species languages. Seems as how the "Universal Translator" is only good for what has been programmed into it and the Imperial Navy is likely not going to be nice enough to just hand out the data on what various likely abrreviations and lingo, which means your stuck trying out buttons on a full scale capital ship. There's no reason they should have the slightest clue what the console says beyond perhaps some intel guys who are on captured worlds readingcivlian oriented language if the Imperials deicded to force them to be using Basic by that point. If you take Joe Six pack of the street and started talking about military hardware in the M-### codes or such all you'd likely get is a blank look unless you tell them what they refer to. On a fighter or shuttle you might be able to fudge it some without knowing the language but a big captial ship with that many consoles and all? Even if Q showed up and gave them a complete translation manual we've seen how much difficulty Federation Bridge crew had finding just a few Klingon phrases, which they've had access to for a long time, in the Undiscovered Country IIRC. If you try to use the actual crew they could send a distress signal with you none the wiser because you can't read what their consoles say.

Every moment they dilly dally trying to get the ship to move is another moment the Imperial fleet has to wonder why the ISD isn't responding and send a fleet to investigate. This is a problem you have to deal with under the given scenario as I understand it.

[Durandal]

Assuming the Starfleet force accomplishes the objective, is there some reason they couldn't utilize existing automation to send the craft somewhere where they can recrew it?

There's a big reason: it requires at least 12,000 people to operate. It's not a remote control plane.

Unless the ISD lacks any significant automation for propulsion and destination.

I'm sure it has automation, but it still requires 12,000 people to operate it.

Well the remaining crew certainly aren't going to let you just mozey on in without a fight. I'd be surprised if they didn't just blow up the ship as the crew start disappearing.

I sure am glad you are not my CO, because I would first raise shields and go on security alert when crewmen start disappearing, instead of panicking and blowing up my ship.

I'm sorry, this just made me crack up.

So Walper, let me see if I've got your plan right.

1. Assume that transporters can work through dense armor and intense electromagnetic interference generated by the ship's reactor, even though it's canon that transporters don't work under these conditions. Begin beaming random crew members into space. There will be a standard crew of 38,000 with 275 gunners and about 10,000 troops who serve no functional value to the ship's operations at all. So about 1 in every 5 transports will contribute nothing to the overall goal. According to ST:G, it takes at least a couple of minutes to get 47 people transported. If we say 25 people every every minute (I haven't seen the movie in a while), it would take about 30 hours for one ship to completely clear the star destroyer.
2. Use magic powers of divination to determine which crew members are important to the ship's operations (neglecting the fact that, if a ship requires at least 12,000 people to run, every one of them must be important) and transport them onboard ships for interrogation.
3. Ignore the fact that this kind of methodology has never been employed on prisoners of war by the Federation and use truth drugs for interrogation.
4. Assume that the information extracted from a few dozen, uncooperative prisoners will be enough to allow you to take control of the ship, even though it takes weeks of training for crewers to learn how to do their individual, distinct jobs aboard the ship.
5. Board the ship with thousands of crewers who have appeared from thin air so as not to leave certain ships in the attack fleet completely uncrewed or deprived of key personnel and have had all necessary knowledge for operating the the completely alien vessel transferred to them by completely inexplicable means. Pray the reinforcements haven't arrived yet.
6. Recite a variation of Peter Pan's "I do believe in fairies! I do! I do!" and hope the ship actually works instead of just shutting you out because the captain was intelligent and enacted security protocols to stop the ship from falling into enemy hands.
7. Rub a lamp three times and tell the genie you wish for a better plan.

[Smiling Bandit]

I expect if they get one of those Soliton Wave thingies built, that mgiht destroy, damage, or otherwise harm the ISD. Maybe not. And they probably couldn't build one anyway, since the scientists are probably already dead or captured

You would wipe out billions of your own citizens in order to lure an ISD into a trap? Why exactly would the Federation's citizens prefer you to the new Imperial overlords, then? The populations of captured worlds are your former people, aren't they?

What, you think my pathetic slaves would dare rise against me!?! They are my toys and tools, who will be broken at my whim! Mwah-hah-hah-haaa! I will be the only evil overlord here! They will die by the billions to feed my hunger for slaughter and to amuse my twisted, evil tastes! Mwah-hah-hah-haaa!

...

...

...

OK, I have to to it again!

Mwah-hah-hah-haaa!

...

You know, saying "Mwah-hah-hah-haaa!" feels *really* good.

...

But seriously, we coudld always blame it on the Imperials.

[The Third Man]

Those posts that don't suggest some form of trickery and instead advocate the brute force method of pouring men into whatever breach you can open reminds me very much of siege warfare against a castle; I think there are lessons to be learned from historically successful sieges, that could better the attackers chances. First though, there are a number of key conceptual differences between an ISD and a castle. I think these would have to be addressed before the Feds would have any chance at all. As the hypothetical SF Admiral I'd be looking for resolutions to the following:

1. A castle cannot run away. So how to get an ISD into a situation where it can't hyperspace to safety? Could our Admiral have his techies mess about with gravitons and deflector dishes to create 'mass shadows' and prevent an escape to hyperspace that way?

2. A castle cannot call for another castle to come to its location and help out. Would it be possible to lure an ISD into one of STs many anomalous nebulas or nebulous anomalies where holonet, subspace or whatever won't work?

3. It's generally hard to self-destruct a castle, not so an ISD. Would SF have to rely on getting one of the more humane/compassionate Imperial captains who wouldn't carry through such an act? Maybe if ISDs where in short supply in the ST galaxy, they would not be self-destructed for the same reasons that castles avoided this fate (they were such important and hard-to-build assets that it was better to surrender and hope to win them back later than destroy them)

4. Historically, the attackers were aware of what to expect, technologically speaking. Does the Admiral, have this knowledge?

5. The Admiral would need a big army prepared to die in large numbers. Is the TNG 'pussification' phenomenon more than just an affectation, and are they really normal humans who can (as history proves) be persuaded to face the horrors of an attack through a breach? Or is our Admiral going to have to acquire a lot of Klingons to fill the role of cannon-fodder?

Solve these, and we can move on to the interesting techniques that can be applied to siege warfare, 19th century style.

[Alyeska]

FYI, Trek transporters will have relatively little problem beaming through the hull of the ISD.

Reason? In "Think Tank" VGR Voyager was able to beam through a neutronium alloy hull. Trying to claim the hull of an ISD will block Trek transporters is a red herring attempt. Knock it off.

Oh right, why couldn't they beam through certain alloy bulkheads in TNG? Why couldn't they beam through electrical interference?

What the hell is a "neutronium alloy" anyway? Looks like you're just looking for a cheap excuse to dismiss years of Trek precedent.

Voyager beamed Seven off the think tank. That place had a neutronium hull. THAT is precedence.

Furthermore Trek can beam through most interference, the problem typicaly comes from getting a lock. Its easier to beam in then it is beam out.

You have to prove the SW hull can stop transporters. Burden of proof lies on you. Trek transporters work most of the time and only special circumstances have stopped them from working.

[Tribun]

FYI, Trek transporters will have relatively little problem beaming through the hull of the ISD.

Reason? In "Think Tank" VGR Voyager was able to beam through a neutronium alloy hull. Trying to claim the hull of an ISD will block Trek transporters is a red herring attempt. Knock it off.

Oh right, why couldn't they beam through certain alloy bulkheads in TNG? Why couldn't they beam through electrical interference?

What the hell is a "neutronium alloy" anyway? Looks like you're just looking for a cheap excuse to dismiss years of Trek precedent.

Voyager beamed Seven off the think tank. That place had a neutronium hull. THAT is precedence.

Furthermore Trek can beam through most interference, the problem typicaly comes from getting a lock. Its easier to beam in then it is beam out.

You have to prove the SW hull can stop transporters. Burden of proof lies on you. Trek transporters work most of the time and only special circumstances have stopped them from working.

Ah yes, the old attempt "SW tech has to proof that it works against ST tech, and sice this impossible because thes universes a seperated, ST wins automaticcly". Man, coudn't you just find something better than that old tactic?

[Ted C]

Voyager beamed Seven off the think tank. That place had a neutronium hull. THAT is precedence.

Furthermore Trek can beam through most interference, the problem typicaly comes from getting a lock. Its easier to beam in then it is beam out.

You have to prove the SW hull can stop transporters. Burden of proof lies on you. Trek transporters work most of the time and only special circumstances have stopped them from working.

Alyeska, transporters are -- based on precedent -- at least as likely to fail as to succeed in a crisis.

Bad weather blocks them; shields block them; "transport inhibitors" (whatever they do) block them; magnetic fields block them; tractor beams block them; natural minerals that aren't even in the path of the beam block them; sunspots block them.

Who cares if they managed to beam Torres or Seven through a neutronium alloy hull on one occasion? There are so many adverse conditions around an ISD (with thick hulls, sensor jamming, shielding, unknown particles and radiation from weapon fire, etc.) that it's virtually a foregone conclusion that Federation ships won't have anything close to normal transporter function.

[Tribun]

Yep. The burden of proof lies at ST.
They must proof that thier transporter works through materials and conditions, and that also as normal occurance, not the one-time thing.

[HRogge]

Some thoughts about SW cloaking devices:

The "standard cloak":
They can be detected by good sensors... it's unknown if you can see out of them.

The "perfect cloak" of Palpatine:
They cannot be detected by standard sensors, only gravity sensors ( CGT ) are able to spot them. One of it's disadvantages is you cannot see out.

The standard cloaking device sounds a lot like the ST cloak... the second one has some HUGE advantages and disadvantages.

[Darth Wong]

Voyager beamed Seven off the think tank. That place had a neutronium hull. THAT is precedence.

Neutronium is not solid. THAT is fact. So whatever neutronium was in this hull was either interstitial or simply an error.

Furthermore Trek can beam through most interference, the problem typicaly comes from getting a lock. Its easier to beam in then it is beam out.

Proof? I have cited numerous incidents in which interference stopped Trek transporters cold. Simply saying "it's not the transporters; it's the sensors" is not much of a theory unless you have some particular evidence to back that up.

You have to prove the SW hull can stop transporters. Burden of proof lies on you.

Wrong; Trek transporters have been shown to be incapable of transporting through certain types of materials even used on Federation ships. Explain that, given your insistence that no materials can block them.

Trek transporters work most of the time and only special circumstances have stopped them from working.

Special circumstances such as dense metals and high levels of interference, both of which are present in this case. Burden of proof is on you to show why neither would cause a problem here.

[Connor MacLeod]

Uh Conner, unless I'm mistaken, an ISD's main thrusters throw superheated ions out at velocities getting to respectable fractions of C, for them to have the acceleration they do. They would clear the cloaking field in a fraction of a second under any kind of real thrust. The cloaking field only extends a short distance from the ship. If you expelled them at a velocity where they would cool and disperse before exiting, then your sure as hell not going to be getting any real thrust from them and you aint moving...

Okay, granted. But that's why I also specified direction as a factor, although duration and intensity will also matter Likewise, exhaust might be easy to detect if tracking the ship frrom the side or behind while it is under constant full-bore acceleration But you're not very likely to detect the exhaust if your in front of the ISD or if its using it in short bursts at a lower rate of acceleration.


Nitpick: you can't really "superheat" ions.

[Shogoki]

Perhaps the Starfleet force could utilize truth drugs or other means of getting reliable information. They would probably have a couple of options on hand for that scenario I'd think.

And have we ever seen them do something like that before?

Yeah, Doctor Bashir and Miles O'Brien from DS9 used these types of methods to extract information from a member of Section 31. A hostile, suicidal enemy, whom they succeeded gathering vital information from anyway. That's just one example off the top of my head, there could very well be even other better ones.

And the Empire has a full tortu... Interrogation division, specialized equipment, hell, they probably even have text books on interrogation for different species, imperial officers are probably trained to resist that kind of interrogation, and if captured, they expect that kind of interrogation, so why the hell would they allow themselves to be captured?

[Alyeska]

Voyager beamed Seven off the think tank. That place had a neutronium hull. THAT is precedence.

Furthermore Trek can beam through most interference, the problem typicaly comes from getting a lock. Its easier to beam in then it is beam out.

You have to prove the SW hull can stop transporters. Burden of proof lies on you. Trek transporters work most of the time and only special circumstances have stopped them from working.

Alyeska, transporters are -- based on precedent -- at least as likely to fail as to succeed in a crisis.

Bad weather blocks them; shields block them; "transport inhibitors" (whatever they do) block them; magnetic fields block them; tractor beams block them; natural minerals that aren't even in the path of the beam block them; sunspots block them.

Who cares if they managed to beam Torres or Seven through a neutronium alloy hull on one occasion? There are so many adverse conditions around an ISD (with thick hulls, sensor jamming, shielding, unknown particles and radiation from weapon fire, etc.) that it's virtually a foregone conclusion that Federation ships won't have anything close to normal transporter function.

Transporters have only failed on RARE OCASSION. And most of those failures didn't come from not being able to transport, but not being able to lock on. Atmospheric storms make transporter locks difficult, but people can still beam down. Two know materials have blocked transporters, materials you can't prove SW has. Specific built inhibitors work, something SW won't have because they don't have transporters.

And list these adverse conditions and why something around the engine room would prevent someone from beaming in the hanger bays.

Transporters can and do work in combat situations. Furthermore access to long range subspace transporters changes things inredibly. These can be used by cloaked ships and can pass right through shields. Or did anyone not pay attention to my stipulation this technology is available?

[Alyeska]

Yep. The burden of proof lies at ST.
They must proof that thier transporter works through materials and conditions, and that also as normal occurance, not the one-time thing.

I have not seen anything listed on an ISD that can stop transporters. People claimed hull thickness without prooving such restrictions have stopped transporters. People claim neutronium and I proved that wrong. You have to come up with possible things to stop the transporter. Burden of proof lies on you.

[Alyeska]

Neutronium is not solid. THAT is fact. So whatever neutronium was in this hull was either interstitial or simply an error.

Neutronium also doesn't go into allows. So shall we toss out SW neutronium as well?

Proof? I have cited numerous incidents in which interference stopped Trek transporters cold. Simply saying "it's not the transporters; it's the sensors" is not much of a theory unless you have some particular evidence to back that up.

In all of those instances they have tried beaming people OUT. Beaming through interference is much easier to do. Hell, Kelvenite and Transport Inhibitors didn't prevent beaming, they prevented transporter locks.

Wrong; Trek transporters have been shown to be incapable of transporting through certain types of materials even used on Federation ships. Explain that, given your insistence that no materials can block them.

I never said that. I said that transporters have worked most of the time and only SPECIAL circumstances have prevented them from working. The USS Vico incident was when the beam was litteraly on top of the kid. It didn't stop them from beaming out a couple meters away. Kelvenite never prevented transporting, it only disrupted the locks.

Special circumstances such as dense metals and high levels of interference, both of which are present in this case. Burden of proof is on you to show why neither would cause a problem here.

Interference only prevent locks to beam out. Dense metals is an assumption on your part. We already know that they can and have beamed through ship hulls involving neotronium, and thats as dense and you can get.

[Tribun]

Yep. The burden of proof lies at ST.
They must proof that thier transporter works through materials and conditions, and that also as normal occurance, not the one-time thing.

I have not seen anything listed on an ISD that can stop transporters. People claimed hull thickness without prooving such restrictions have stopped transporters. People claim neutronium and I proved that wrong. You have to come up with possible things to stop the transporter. Burden of proof lies on you.

If transports would be as relaible as you say, than pad to pad tranfer (from the transporter of one ship to the transporter of another) wouldn't be so common. And you must be blind if you oignore the thick list of cases, where the transporter:
a) can't be used.
b) wasn't safe to use.
c) could only be used with MUCH preperation and caution.

[Alyeska]

Yep. The burden of proof lies at ST.
They must proof that thier transporter works through materials and conditions, and that also as normal occurance, not the one-time thing.

I have not seen anything listed on an ISD that can stop transporters. People claimed hull thickness without prooving such restrictions have stopped transporters. People claim neutronium and I proved that wrong. You have to come up with possible things to stop the transporter. Burden of proof lies on you.

If transports would be as relaible as you say, than pad to pad tranfer (from the transporter of one ship to the transporter of another) wouldn't be so common. And you must be blind if you oignore the thick list of cases, where the transporter:
a) can't be used.
b) wasn't safe to use.
c) could only be used with MUCH preperation and caution.

Beaming blindly into an area you can't lock on is dangerous. But so is combat.

Pad to pad transporting is a way to make transporting safer, an added layer of saftey. Just like we do things in real life just in case. When you have potential lethal consequences, you use saftey. When in combat, saftey be damned as long as you can achieve the goal.

I notice you rather ignored all the hundreds of examples of pad-nopad transporting without any problems.

[Tribun]

Ah yes, I should have added that the pad to pad thing applies mostly to starships.

I simply wait for Mike to give you the Smackdown.

[Slartibartfast]

Assuming the Starfleet force accomplishes the objective, is there some reason they couldn't utilize existing automation to send the craft somewhere where they can recrew it?

There's a big reason: it requires at least 12,000 people to operate. It's not a remote control plane.

Unless the ISD lacks any significant automation for propulsion and destination.

I'm sure it has automation, but it still requires 12,000 people to operate it.

Yeah, just because a ship has automation doesn't mean it drives itself. It just means that the crew only has to push buttons instead of shoveling hypermatter into a furnace by hand.

But there's a lot of buttons.

[Darth Wong]

Neutronium is not solid. THAT is fact. So whatever neutronium was in this hull was either interstitial or simply an error.

Neutronium also doesn't go into allows. So shall we toss out SW neutronium as well?

Obviously, you are too ignorant to know that carbon is not a metal, yet it can be used as an alloying agent by fitting into interstitial spaces. Please, feel free to go on making an ass out of yourself in your ignorance.

In all of those instances they have tried beaming people OUT. Beaming through interference is much easier to do. Hell, Kelvenite and Transport Inhibitors didn't prevent beaming, they prevented transporter locks.

And can you produce similar explanations for "Symbiosis", "Contagion", "Ensigns of Command", "The Enemy", "The Hunted", "Legacy", "Final Mission", "Power Play", "Schisms", "True Q", "Quality of Life", "Lessons", and "Hero Worship" (where they said "the lock is holding; I just can't resolve the matter stream. Not with all that victurium alloy in the way"?)

I never said that. I said that transporters have worked most of the time and only SPECIAL circumstances have prevented them from working. The USS Vico incident was when the beam was litteraly on top of the kid. It didn't stop them from beaming out a couple meters away. Kelvenite never prevented transporting, it only disrupted the locks.

Interesting that the USS Vico incident clearly said that they did have a lock, but couldn't pull him out through the "victurium alloy", then.

Interference only prevent locks to beam out. Dense metals is an assumption on your part.

No, it's a theory. Unless you've got some other explanation why certain materials block transport.

We already know that they can and have beamed through ship hulls involving neotronium, and thats as dense and you can get.

More bullshit; neutronium is liquid. Those hulls were not liquid. And "involving" neutronium doesn't mean much without knowing more about its properties. SW capship hull armour is dense enough and superconductive enough to ward off nuclear fusion weapons without damage; the same cannot be said for the hulls you're talking about.

[BabelHuber]

Beaming blindly into an area you can't lock on is dangerous. But so is combat.

LOL! I just imagine ST boarding crews getting beamed inside an SD without a lock! How many will end up being dead, rematerializing in ceilings, floors, walls and other equipment? Or losing limbs? Others appear just a few meters above the floor, falling down, breaking bones. Pure chaos, in between the Imps starting resistance, building choke-points etc. It would be a slaughter like at the beach of the Normandy for the first minutes at least.

[Alyeska]

Just a thought.

It would probably help the debate if all known transporter difficulty examples are compiled, analyzed, and then compared to possible similarities in enviroment on an ISD. That would settle much of the debate.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Assuming the Starfleet force accomplishes the objective, is there some reason they couldn't utilize existing automation to send the craft somewhere where they can recrew it?

There's a big reason: it requires at least 12,000 people to operate. It's not a remote control plane.

They really should be able to do this, as there is EU precedent. since former Imperial Intelligence Madame Director Ysanne Isard lead a small group of commandos and specialists to sieze control of major control hubs, and the primary and auxillary bridges in order to steal the NRS Lusankya, which was an Executor-class ship.

Likewise, Warlord and former Imperial Fleet Admiral Zsinj also sent a force and snatched up HIMS Razor's Kiss, directly out of the Kuat Drive Yards' construction slips. This didn't take thousands of people either.