Phase Cloak

Oddity · Post by **Oddity** » 2002-10-11 02:27pm

Everyone seems to assume that the weapons of a phase cloaked ship would be unable to harm an opponent, but wouldn't a torpedo 'become solid' again when it leaves the cloaking field?

I haven't seen Pegasus, so don't laugh at me if I miss something obvious here...

Evil Jerk · Post by **Evil Jerk** » 2002-10-11 02:54pm

It's not a field, were it a field then it would also dephase anything around the ship, making it virtually useless (I don't think it can be a skin tight field, how could it be so rapidly configured to work with the E-D after being used on the Pegasus if that were so?).
Therefore, I believe a torp fired out of phase would stay out of phase indefinitley.

Failed Glory · Post by **Failed Glory** » 2002-10-11 03:07pm

How does a "regular" cloak work?

I was reading that material at 0 K does not emit any radiation.

If you could get the hull down to 0K, then no passive sensor could detect your EM signature. Mask your engine trail and you are invisible.

An active sensor might unless you could dampen the effect on the hull.

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2002-10-11 03:27pm

Thats absoulte Zero Glory, The problem is it does not emite anything because its becomes SOLID

IE nothing works at 0K because the Mocles are not moving at all

Also in your idea cooling the hull would resort in all Heat being traped inside rapildy cooking the crew and/or warming the Hull

NTM the whole nothing works at 0K thing agian

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2002-10-11 03:54pm

Plus your mass would still be there, so gravity sensors should still pick you up.

Failed Glory · Post by **Failed Glory** » 2002-10-11 03:55pm

Haivng a bad day or something? Your responses are normally a little more coherent than that.

So the hull is liquid? I realize you can't get to 0K, but at 1*10^-# you will emit very little radiation (Wein's law). And it just has to be the very outer hull, not the entire vessel. Anyways, it's just an idea, no worries.

If your theory of heat frying the crew, then a warbird or bird of prey must release and dissapate a normal amount of heat while under cloak. This would make it impossible to maintain a stealthy mode like cloak with heat being emitted from the hull.

Since the question was dodged, how does a "regular" cloak work?

Most sources simply say that radiation is dampened with no further science involved. Or that light is bent around the subject.

Luke Starkiller · Post by **Luke Starkiller** » 2002-10-11 07:14pm

Regular ST cloaks cannot work by bending light around the ship. We know this because they can still see out from a cloaked ship. As to how they do work I don't have the least clue

SPOOFE · Post by **SPOOFE** » 2002-10-11 08:28pm

Regular ST cloaks cannot work by bending light around the ship. We know this because they can still see out from a cloaked ship. As to how they do work I don't have the least clue

Take in photons from one side of the field, and transmit an identical photon out the opposite side. This would require insane processing power and capabilities of the field, but it would allow the occupants of the ship to see what's going on around them.

Post by **Kuja** » 2002-10-12 01:13am

SPOOFE wrote:
Regular ST cloaks cannot work by bending light around the ship. We know this because they can still see out from a cloaked ship. As to how they do work I don't have the least clue
Take in photons from one side of the field, and transmit an identical photon out the opposite side. This would require insane processing power and capabilities of the field, but it would allow the occupants of the ship to see what's going on around them.

You mean like, a computerized one-way mirror?

Enlightenment · Post by **Enlightenment** » 2002-10-12 02:15am

Failed Glory wrote:I realize you can't get to 0K, but at 1*10^-# you will emit very little radiation (Wein's law). And it just has to be the very outer hull, not the entire vessel.

What do you intend to do with the waste heat? If the hull is at 0 + epsilion K there is nowhere and no way to radiate the waste heat from the power reactors and other systems. In short order the crew will be--literally--burned to a crisp.

If your theory of heat frying the crew, then a warbird or bird of prey must release and dissapate a normal amount of heat while under cloak. This would make it impossible to maintain a stealthy mode like cloak with heat being emitted from the hull.

Waste heat radiation is real physics. Cloaks are Treknology. Real-world physical constraints don't apply to Treknology and vice versa. You can't mix the two physics systems and get a meaningful result.

0K hulls are real physics and waste heat are real physics. Cloaking devices aren't. Reverse engineering the behavior of the Trek cloak won't give any data or results that are useful in determining how a real cloak could operate.

SPOOFE · Post by **SPOOFE** » 2002-10-12 04:33am

You mean like, a computerized one-way mirror?

Sort of. More like a 3-D camera/television combo... each given point on the cloaking field both takes in information it receives for observation, and simultaneously transmits artificially-created information (taken from the opposite side of the cloaking field).

That's how I would explain it, at least. Your average Star Trek writer, however, would say "It uses Subspace somehow."

SPOOFE · Post by **SPOOFE** » 2002-10-12 04:35am

What do you intend to do with the waste heat?

Again, you run into the Treknobabble response of "It uses Subspace somehow". Which, I think, is the least glaring flaw in Treknobabble philosophy.

greenmm · Post by **greenmm** » 2002-10-12 02:46pm

SPOOFE wrote:
Regular ST cloaks cannot work by bending light around the ship. We know this because they can still see out from a cloaked ship. As to how they do work I don't have the least clue
Take in photons from one side of the field, and transmit an identical photon out the opposite side. This would require insane processing power and capabilities of the field, but it would allow the occupants of the ship to see what's going on around them.

Sounds very similar to the "no-rooms" from the Dune universe, where overlapping shields were set up in all 3 dimensions to "cloak" a particular area from being detected.

consequences · Post by **consequences** » 2002-10-13 01:46am

For the Waste heat, build in a large battery capacity, make sure its empty when you enter cloak, and bleed what would be the waste heat into it. This requires some ridiculous energy storage technology for anything more than the very short term, and will probably be horrendously space intensive, but its the only method I've come up with to mitigate the problem.

Luke Starkiller · Post by **Luke Starkiller** » 2002-10-13 12:05pm

The next question is of course: 'How do you move the cloaked ship?'

Since engine emissions would immediately betray the presence of the ship and a competent enemy would be able to track you that way.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2002-10-13 12:39pm

I asked this question before, and was told that if you ranthe emissions through a cooling and dispursing maniflod, there would be nothing to track.

But I don't understand how cooled and widely dispursed engine emissions are going to move the ship, when what you want are higly energenitic and focused emissions.

consequences · Post by **consequences** » 2002-10-14 01:14am

you aren't going to get high tactical speeds, but some movement shoul be possible, at an increased chance of detection.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2002-10-14 01:24am

Ender wrote:I asked this question before, and was told that if you ranthe emissions through a cooling and dispursing maniflod, there would be nothing to track.

They're oversimplifying. You can disperse energies, but that doesn't recuce the amount; it just spreads it around, hopefully so much that it blends in with the background. In atmosphere, with a relatively high background temperature, this is easier to achieve. In space, with much greater powerplant emissions and a far lower background temperature, this is virtually impossible to achieve.

But I don't understand how cooled and widely dispursed engine emissions are going to move the ship, when what you want are higly energenitic and focused emissions.

Even if it's just waste gas, a miniscule fraction of the power requirements attributes to cloaking devices would still make a cloaked ship set off alarms in passive infrared sensors left, right, and centre.

Failed Glory · Post by **Failed Glory** » 2002-10-15 04:19pm

Enlightenment wrote:
Waste heat radiation is real physics. Cloaks are Treknology. Real-world physical constraints don't apply to Treknology and vice versa. You can't mix the two physics systems and get a meaningful result.

Using this argument, all the debates held on this site thus so far can be ignored. Trek physics does not real physics does not equal SW physics, therefore those stupid megatons aren't megatons arguments come up. No one will follow that logic without debate. Or at least I hope not.

Yes, we can't explain every technology and have to accept the actual functioning as beyond comprehension, but since we have only "real science" (because they are still open to interpretation), we have to use this as a basis for what happens in the Sci-fi world.

Anyways, Onwards!

I agree that using the reverse of a diesel sub philosophy with some sort of "batteries" that can store heat during cloak may due the trick to store the heat.

As for the movement, this was the downcoming of the original cloak (Kirk saying,"there it is!" as the stars waver on screen). The Romulans and Klingons have obviously moved past this hurdle, but with a different technology.

What is bizarre is that the reason cloaked ships cannot fire is that the cloak takes too much energy. But a ship can now use her warp engines while cloaked, but still not fire?

Maybe you were right, Enlightenment. Stupid Illogical Treknology.