How to defeat the Dominion in 7 days.

Sarevok · Post by **Sarevok** » 2004-01-26 06:03am

I am a Jem' Hadar, he is a Vorta. It is the order of things.

IIRC it was I am a Jem' Hadar, he is a Vorta. begins the order of things.

Post by **Gandalf** » 2004-01-26 06:29am

evilcat4000 wrote:
I am a Jem' Hadar, he is a Vorta. It is the order of things.
IIRC it was I am a Jem' Hadar, he is a Vorta. begins the order of things.

I'm watching the ep right now, it definitely sounds like it is.

Though the subtitles say:

Ik ben een Jem' Hadar, hij is een Vorta. Zo is het vastgelegd.

I don't know what that means though.

GySgt. Hartman · Post by **GySgt. Hartman** » 2004-01-26 07:34am

Gandalf wrote:Ik ben een Jem' Hadar, hij is een Vorta. Zo is het vastgelegd.

My Dutch isn't really good, but it roughly translates to:
I am a Jem'Hadar, he is a Vorta. This is how it has been laid down / specified / the order of things.
"Begins the order of things" doesn't make any sense anyway. Hell, that is not even an English sentence.
I know that K-W is not what keeps the J'H in line, but it serves as an "emergency brake" in case they do revolt.

Producing all of their K-W in the AQ seems pretty stupid to me, since security is much better in the GQ. Do you have any evidence for this?

Post by **Gandalf** » 2004-01-26 07:42am

GySgt. Hartman wrote:Producing all of their K-W in the AQ seems pretty stupid to me, since security is much better in the GQ. Do you have any evidence for this?

They couldn't get the KW from the GQ due to the Prophets blocking the wormhole for them.

Also, the Son'a are mentioned as being Dominion allies, and they make KW, which proves the Founders/Vorta aren't the only ones with the recipe and that the AQ had the ingredients.

Also, thanks for the translation.

GySgt. Hartman · Post by **GySgt. Hartman** » 2004-01-26 11:44am

Gandalf wrote:Also, the Son'a are mentioned as being Dominion allies, and they make KW, which proves the Founders/Vorta aren't the only ones with the recipe and that the AQ had the ingredients.

Yes, we had covered that incredible lack of concern for security issues already here.

You said

Also, I think the KW was generated in the AQ eventually.

That sounded like all K-W was generated in the AQ, which I hope is not the case. Since they couldn't get any K-W through the wormhole, they would need factories in the GQ to supply the forces stationed there.

Post by **Gandalf** » 2004-01-26 08:46pm

GySgt. Hartman wrote:You said
Also, I think the KW was generated in the AQ eventually.
That sounded like all K-W was generated in the AQ, which I hope is not the case. Since they couldn't get any K-W through the wormhole, they would need factories in the GQ to supply the forces stationed there.

I didn't mean it like that, I meant the KW for the AQ Jem' Hadar.

harbringer · Post by **harbringer** » 2004-01-28 10:03am

You assume that killing millions of genetic soldiers is better than making them sick and incapacitated how exactly?. As for bioweapons in real life it didn't happen but given the paranoia of the time THAT'S the surprise. My surprise is that you didn't just say I abhor all violence (a reasonable standpoint) rather than bioweapons are horrible but violence is ok. My only point was that such things have been planned and almost carried out. And of course that you don't actually have to kill anyone.

And as for destroying planets it is easier for the empire. Even with one destroyer, you post only said conquering the dominion in 7 days not "you must use the minimum force to do so". My point is that a covert operation to contaminate white or something is a lot of trouble and requires resources the empire would not have. Let alone the actual time involved. A bioweapon would be much easier to use against the jem hadar than KW facilities. BDZ the founders planet and you get a fractured and maybe surrendered dominion.

But when all is said and done trying to use minimum force isn't the Emperors way is it. Mainly as it often doesn't work. After all how would you garrison the planets??.

GySgt. Hartman · Post by **GySgt. Hartman** » 2004-01-28 10:24am

harbringer wrote:You assume that killing millions of genetic soldiers is better than making them sick and incapacitated how exactly?.

Because
a) they are dead and won't come back to fight a guerilla war.
b) bioweapons are a risk to yourself and to civilians because they are capable of mutating ino something you didn't intend them to become.

As for bioweapons in real life it didn't happen but given the paranoia of the time THAT'S the surprise. My surprise is that you didn't just say I abhor all violence (a reasonable standpoint) rather than bioweapons are horrible but violence is ok.

I do abhor all violence, but using bioweapons against civilians is quite different from shooting soldiers who enlisted to die.

And as for destroying planets it is easier for the empire. Even with one destroyer, you post only said conquering the dominion in 7 days not "you must use the minimum force to do so".

I have posted my reasons against BDZing at least three times, but for you, I will gladly do it again: What is the good in being the ruler in a quadrant of dead planets?

My point is that a covert operation to contaminate white or something is a lot of trouble and requires resources the empire would not have. Let alone the actual time involved.

That is why I wanted to jump in, blow them up, and leave. Requires a few ships (not necessarily ISDs) and doesn't take much time.

BDZ the founders planet and you get a fractured and maybe surrendered dominion.

That was, as an attentive reader will surely have noticed, the other option.
Which one is better is what this thread is about.

But when all is said and done trying to use minimum force isn't the Emperors way is it.

Using what force is available is.

After all how would you garrison the planets??.

From orbit. But that is not the topic here.

Post by **Gandalf** » 2004-01-28 07:45pm

harbringer wrote:BDZ the founders planet and you get a fractured and maybe surrendered dominion.

I beg to differ on the surrendered point. Look at this from a Vorta/Jem' Hadar point of view. Your Gods have just been wiped out by some new alien force. Also, they only live in service of the Founders. They'll fight to the death. (See: WYLB pt 2)

Sarevok · Post by **Sarevok** » 2004-01-29 01:28am

I beg to differ on the surrendered point. Look at this from a Vorta/Jem' Hadar point of view. Your Gods have just been wiped out by some new alien force. Also, they only live in service of the Founders. They'll fight to the death. (See: WYLB pt 2)

Indeed. The Jemhader and the Vortra fight for the Founders to the bitter end. Killing all the Founder will make them even more angry.

harbringer · Post by **harbringer** » 2004-01-29 07:44am

I have posted my reasons against BDZing at least three times, but for you, I will gladly do it again: What is the good in being the ruler in a quadrant of dead planets?

And my point is you don't have to destroy every planet, depending on your point of veiw and aims destroying 2 or 3 and selective areas of others (i.e. not an area large enough to exterminate all life on a planet). I was not advocating wholesale destruction. I personally am not sure how the Jem Hadar would react or the Vorta to the destruction of the founders. But not knowing star trek to the extant a trek fan would I am just going from first impressions. Since not all the planets of the dominion are populated by founders,Jem hadar(though they might form a garrison) or Vorta many planets might decide to throw in with the Empire the dominion after all is pretty repressive in its own way. Just thought I would point out that N.B.C war is messy and hard to use in some ways. But of course that wouldn't stop someone, even though it could not by nature be targeted as such.[/quote]

GySgt. Hartman · Post by **GySgt. Hartman** » 2004-01-29 08:13am

In "The Ship", Jem'Hadar warriors simply killed themselves after they failed to protect a founder. Anyway, the smart move would be to simply blockade the Founders planet and take them all hostage.

JME2 · Post by **JME2** » 2004-01-30 05:09pm

A simple solution? Send advance scouts to locate the factories, give the location to the Jem'Hadar, then sit back and watch all hell break loose across the Gamma Quadrant.

GySgt. Hartman · Post by **GySgt. Hartman** » 2004-01-30 05:17pm

To the Jem'Hadar? Why?
They are loyal to the Founders, the K-W thingy is just supposed to be a last measure in the unlikely event that something causes them to turn against the Founders.

JME2 · Post by **JME2** » 2004-01-30 05:20pm

GySgt. Hartman wrote:To the Jem'Hadar? Why?
They are loyal to the Founders, the K-W thingy is just supposed to be a last measure in the unlikely event that something causes them to turn against the Founders.

The Jem'Hadar, however, will go after the Vorta. Also, their belief in the founder's godhood is not always total, as shown in'To the Death'.

GySgt. Hartman · Post by **GySgt. Hartman** » 2004-01-30 05:48pm

Why would they go after the Vorta? Someone has to guard the factories, I would assume that it's the Jem'Hadar, with one Vorta in charge that is able to destroy the facility in case of a Jem'Hadar uprising.

Cornelius · Post by **Cornelius** » 2004-02-07 10:16pm

Why only seven days?

Post by **Gandalf** » 2004-02-08 01:28am

Cornelius wrote:Why only seven days?

Just a set challenge, like the 5 minute mile.

beyond hope · Post by **beyond hope** » 2004-02-08 06:29am

Here's a question: what about the possibility of tainting the stuff? Not with viral agents, since there's the chance they'll come back and bite you on the ass, but with a time-released poison. You certainly won't be able to kill all the Jem'Hadar that way, but imagine the psychological effect as they wonder if their next dose of K-W will kill them.

Post by **Gandalf** » 2004-02-08 07:09am

beyond hope wrote:Here's a question: what about the possibility of tainting the stuff? Not with viral agents, since there's the chance they'll come back and bite you on the ass, but with a time-released poison. You certainly won't be able to kill all the Jem'Hadar that way, but imagine the psychological effect as they wonder if their next dose of K-W will kill them.

The Jemmies wouldn't care. Also, if word got out, I imagine the Founders would issue a recall of some sort, bring out newer pure stuff.

GySgt. Hartman · Post by **GySgt. Hartman** » 2004-02-08 01:44pm

If you have access to the K-W depots, it is much easier to destroy them then to launch a covert mission where you have to get a team in, acces the K-W, and get out again undetected. ST sensors may be inferior, but they will notice a ship popping out of hyperspace and dropping a team literally on top of them

The seven days is not to be taken literally, it was phrased after books like "learning Java in seven days" or "how to become galactic emperor in 24 hours". The intel part might take a little longer, but I estimated that the Jem'Hadar will survive about a week without resupply.

Keevan_Colton · Post by **Keevan_Colton** » 2004-02-08 03:11pm

Cornelius wrote:Why only seven days?

Something for the Moff to do in his holidays.

GySgt. Hartman · Post by **GySgt. Hartman** » 2004-02-08 06:23pm

Moffs don't have holidays in my universe. Their job is to kill, and they are on job 24h a day, 365.25 days a year.

JME2 · Post by **JME2** » 2004-02-08 06:53pm

Keevan_Colton wrote:
Cornelius wrote:Why only seven days?
Something for the Moff to do in his holidays.

Why not hunt the free targs on the Klingon homeworld?

GySgt. Hartman · Post by **GySgt. Hartman** » 2004-02-08 08:12pm

I think it's set then. If you can find the Founder's planet, fine. But the K-W depots will do just nicely.

... Oh, if anyone wants to argue that, please make sure you read the whole thread. The next one that proposes taking hundred ISDs and just BDZing all Dominion planets is going to eat his own balls. Seriously. Even if it's a woman.