How to defeat an ISD with Starfleet Resources

[Illuminatus Primus]

Nitpick: the ISD has a standard crew of 36,810, but a skeleton of 5,000.

[Alyeska]

I would theorize that a small but experienced crew can run an ISD for long enough to reach a secure location where it can be properly crewed.

[Illuminatus Primus]

I would theorize that a small but experienced crew can run an ISD for long enough to reach a secure location where it can be properly crewed.

I doubt Isard and Zsinj's forces numbered above a 1000 at most. More like a few hundred.

Probably Imperial warships are designed to be recalled by later forces if scuddled or abandoned without a full crew.

I doubt they could get it beyond a local base. Still, the sheer number of men doesn't appear to be a problem for that mission at least.

[Alyeska]

I would theorize that a small but experienced crew can run an ISD for long enough to reach a secure location where it can be properly crewed.

I doubt Isard and Zsinj's forces numbered above a 1000 at most. More like a few hundred.

Probably Imperial warships are designed to be recalled by later forces if scuddled or abandoned without a full crew.

I doubt they could get it beyond a local base. Still, the sheer number of men doesn't appear to be a problem for that mission at least.

Neither Zinji or Isard had hundreds of people. I suspect both relied on the skeleton crewers onboard to keep certain systems running (shields, life support, etc) while the invaders ran engines and navigation.

[Darth Wong]

Could they operate the hyperdrive? Boba Fett alone was able to get some of the systems working, but that doesn't mean he could successfully get it to a star system of his choice.

[Alyeska]

Could they operate the hyperdrive? Boba Fett alone was able to get some of the systems working, but that doesn't mean he could successfully get it to a star system of his choice.

I am not sure who exactly you are talking about so...

In regards to the Starfleet Personel: They would be lucky to get the hyperdrive opperating without serious instruction beforehand.

In regards to Isard and Zinji: Zinji's forces took control of the Razor Kiss and got both sublight and hyperdrive working. They slaved the hyperdrive to the Iron Fist. Isard never got control but expected to be able to get away to a secret base.

[FOG3]

Those ships are known to be equipped with Slave Circuits, probably best shown off at the end of the Black Fleet Crisis, not that Star Fleet has a clue how to use those. I suspect that is how they got the ships they were stealing underway with such a minimal crew.

So is it possible that even if Star Fleet somehow got the vessel underway the Empire could still lock them out and bring the ship home by using the Slave Circuits?

[Illuminatus Primus]

By the way, on cloaking devices...

Cloaking Device
this was a device which caused a ship to appear invisible to another ship's scanners. There were two types of cloaking devices that were developed in the galaxy. The earliest form employed the mineral known as stygium, and was manufactured by the Sienar Advanced Projects Laboratory. First used on the Sith Infiltrator, stygium-based cloaking devices were extremely efficient, and allowed the cloaked ship to use it sensors to monitor its surroundings. However, stygium was found only on Aeten II, and was prohibitively expensive to mine. In the turmoil of the Clone Wars, stygium technology was lost. Imperial scientists then discovered that hibridium could also be used to generate a cloaking device. Initial testing seemed to indicate the hibridium-based cloaking could only be used on stationary objects. However, with further research, a hibridium cloaking device was developed for starship use. Unfortunately, it was tremendously bulky, and required huge amounts of power to operate. Its abilities were overshadowed by its cost, and it was never fully implemented. The one major drawback to the hibridium cloaking device was that it was unstable during hyperspacial travel. This fact was not known to Admiral Zaarin, who attempted to steal a version for the Alliance. He took a cloaked CR90 corvette into hyperspace to escape Vice Admiral Thrawn but the cloaking device ruptured and destroyed the corvette as it entered hyperspace. Several years after the Battle of Endor, Grand Admiral Thrawn recovered the technology from Mount Tantiss and used it twice: once at the Battle of Sluis Van, to hide the contents of his false freighter Narsisstue; and again when he mounted them on asteroids and set them loose in orbit around Coruscant. There were several limitations to using the device on a starship, the foremost of which was that the cloaked ship was as "double-blind": the cloaked ship was as blind to the outside world as the ship was to observation. This presented a problem to early engineers and designers, but was overcome by the advent of the Imperial Computer Combat Predictor. It didn't alleviate the fact that the cloaked ship was blind, but tried allow it the opportunity to shoot down attacking craft. (HTTE, TLC, TIE, SOP, X1, SOG)

The hibridium cloak is the "true" cloak. It blocks all emissions except for gravity both ways. It requires lots of power, and is quite large. The cloaking shield bends all emissions, all active sensor signals, and EM radiation around the vessel. Energy weapons fire and physical objects can be delivered through the cloaking shield without disruption.

The stygium cloak is not a "true" cloak, and is analogous to Star Trek "cloaks." Stygium-cloaked vessels do appear on sensor scans, but are unable to maintain a fix on the signal, and are not visible until close range. This is more like dampening and stealthing than true cloaking. The stygian-cloak also posesses the EM-bending shield which wraps light around the vessel. This too, however, is imperfect; the shield periodically waxes and wanes in effectiveness and is disrupted by weapons fire (both fired and recieved).

Fanwank: An ISD with a hibridium cloak would be very interesting with stygium-cloaked sensor "periscopes" it could extend beyond the hibridium cloaking shield's diameter.

[Ted C]

Transporters have only failed on RARE OCASSION. And most of those failures didn't come from not being able to transport, but not being able to lock on. Atmospheric storms make transporter locks difficult, but people can still beam down. Two know materials have blocked transporters, materials you can't prove SW has. Specific built inhibitors work, something SW won't have because they don't have transporters.

Alyeska, they fail all the time. Not constantly, of course, but crises in which transporters go down are numerous. In TNG alone:
"Skin of Evil", "Symbiosis", "Contagion", "Royale", "Ensigns of Command", "The Enemy", "Tin Man", "Legacy", "Final Mission", "Darmok", "Hero Worship", "Power Play", "Schisms", "Quality of Life", "Lessons", "Suspicions", and "Second Chances".

"Power Play", "Ensigns of Command" and "Final Mission" are especially noteworthy because transport was blocked both ways. "Hero Worship" is notable because the problem was material in the walls ("victurium").

And list these adverse conditions and why something around the engine room would prevent someone from beaming in the hanger bays.

I must have missed some key portion of your argument, since you're obviously concerned primarily with troop insertion. Exactly what are you planning to accomplish that way against the thousands of Imperial troops on a Star Destroyer?

Transporters can and do work in combat situations. Furthermore access to long range subspace transporters changes things inredibly. These can be used by cloaked ships and can pass right through shields. Or did anyone not pay attention to my stipulation this technology is available?

They don't work in combat often, and generally only for boarding ships that have been so badly damaged that they've lost shielding. Federation transporters don't generally work through shields; the only time I can recall them pulling that off was when O'Brien knew exactly how the shields on the target worked and transported himself when they "blinked" for a sensor sweep. I suppose you could also count "When the Bough Breaks", when they detected holes in a planetary shield that they could beam through, but the owners of that shield didn't even understand how it worked.

[Wild Karrde]

A note on the ST cloaks:

TNG Season 6, Ep# 140: "Face of the Enemy"

TORETH: In order to reach Draken we will have to travel through Federation space for nearly twenty hours.
TROI: That is not a problem.
TORETH: Contrary to the propaganda your superiors would have us believe, Starfleet is neither weak nor foolish. The chances of us reaching Draken undetected are not good.
TROI: We will be cloaked.
TORETH: The cloaking device does not make us completely invulnerable. You would know that if you had spent any time in the field. The Federation has littered their borders with subspace listening posts and gravitic sensors. They may even have a tachyon detection grid in operation, in which case they will know we're there. If we are discovered within Federation territory, it could be interpreted as an act of war.

Cloaks: they are vulnerable to detection from subspace listening posts, gravitic sensors, and tachyon detection grids. Their vulnerability to subspace listening posts means that they must still "leak" enough subspace energy to be detected even at many light years' range. Their vulnerability to gravitic sensors means that they have no way of concealing the space-time distortion created by their presence. Their vulnerability to the tachyon detection grids means that they can bend visible light around the ship but not the fabric of space-time itself, as is commonly assumed (because tachyons would be bound to follow the lines of space-time just like anything else).

The ISD has enough sensors to detect the three things the cloak is vuneralbe to and even ships as small as the A-wing carry tachyon sensors.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Yeah; I don't see how hyperwaves could be anything else but some form of beam of tachyons.

[Robert Walper]

And can you produce similar explanations for "Symbiosis", "Contagion", "Ensigns of Command", "The Enemy", "The Hunted", "Legacy", "Final Mission", "Power Play", "Schisms", "True Q", "Quality of Life", "Lessons", and "Hero Worship" (where they said "the lock is holding; I just can't resolve the matter stream. Not with all that victurium alloy in the way"?)

I feel it is important to mention one of your examples(STTNG "Ensign of Command") is not an example of transporters being competely ineffective. Geordi, Brien and Wesley beamed objects back and forth from the planet's surface repeatedly. The only problem was that the beamed objects were mutated.

However, if the safety of the Imperial victims is not an issue, transporters may not be as useless as some here are suggesting. All said examples may be invalid if the only major concern is the person surviving the transport. This rules out gathering captives this way though.

[Durandal]

However, if the safety of the Imperial victims is not an issue, transporters may not be as useless as some here are suggesting. All said examples may be invalid if the only major concern is the person surviving the transport. This rules out gathering captives this way though.

It rules out beaming boarding parties over there, as well.

[Lord Poe]

http://h4h.com/louis/shields.html#trans ... vs.shields

[Darth Wong]

I feel it is important to mention one of your examples(STTNG "Ensign of Command") is not an example of transporters being competely ineffective. Geordi, Brien and Wesley beamed objects back and forth from the planet's surface repeatedly. The only problem was that the beamed objects were mutated.

However, if the safety of the Imperial victims is not an issue, transporters may not be as useless as some here are suggesting. All said examples may be invalid if the only major concern is the person surviving the transport. This rules out gathering captives this way though.

I like the way you base your conclusion upon one incident from the entire list, while totally ignoring other incidents which blow that conclusion out of the water.

[Slartibartfast]

That, and the fact that it's normally the shielded part where transport goes wrong. I think they'll end up in the enterprise transporter room quite healthy and all, *IF* they manage to get a proper lock on the DESTROYER side. But if that part fails, I doubt anything will be getting transported anywhere.

The cases where something went wrong when transporting from usually involved ambient radiation, not blockage.

And the Federation has always had trouble when trying to transport a certain kind of wessels.

My two cents.

[Robert Walper]

I feel it is important to mention one of your examples(STTNG "Ensign of Command") is not an example of transporters being competely ineffective. Geordi, Brien and Wesley beamed objects back and forth from the planet's surface repeatedly. The only problem was that the beamed objects were mutated.

However, if the safety of the Imperial victims is not an issue, transporters may not be as useless as some here are suggesting. All said examples may be invalid if the only major concern is the person surviving the transport. This rules out gathering captives this way though.

I like the way you base your conclusion upon one incident from the entire list, while totally ignoring other incidents which blow that conclusion out of the water.

However, if the safety of the Imperial victims is not an issue, transporters may not be as useless as some here are suggesting. All said examples may be invalid if the only major concern is the person surviving the transport. This rules out gathering captives this way though.

I just finished watching the episode in question(not all of them). My interpretation was that your conclusion might very well be flawed because every example you listed in all likelyhood was concerned about beaming a person in one piece safe and sound.

However, if you're submitting that only the one example is incorrect, you can submit that the other examples would still be completely valid even if safety and well being of transported person is of no concern?

[Darth Wong]

I just finished watching the episode in question(not all of them). My interpretation was that your conclusion might very well be flawed because every example you listed in all likelyhood was concerned about beaming a person in one piece safe and sound.

Bullshit. Do you realize I could have also submitted as evidence every single time one ship has managed to lower the shields of another in combat without beaming out half its crew into space for an easy win? The only time they can play games like that is when the other ship happens to be sitting still and naked to their sensors.

However, if you're submitting that only the one example is incorrect, you can submit that the other examples would still be completely valid even if safety and well being of transported person is of no concern?

Given that they had a successful transport lock in one case but couldn't get the matter stream through the blockage, you have more to do than simply appeal to ignorance.

[Patrick Degan]

Hmm... I see Aleyska and Walper are trying to flog another Miracle Trek Victory™ scenario.

This thread grows more comical by the day.

[Alyeska]

Hmm... I see Aleyska and Walper are trying to flog another Miracle Trek Victory™ scenario.

This thread grows more comical by the day.

Fuck you. I never said Trek would win. I was presenting options and trying to get around the classic brute force method.

[Robert Walper]

Hmm... I see Aleyska and Walper are trying to flog another Miracle Trek Victory™ scenario.

This thread grows more comical by the day.

Fuck you. I never said Trek would win. I was presenting options and trying to get around the classic brute force method.

*nods* That was my intent as well. But it appears that any attempt to suggest possibilities for Trek a victory seem to be heavily frowned upon. The mantra seems to be "It ain't gonna happen", as opposed to suggesting stradegies and methods by which to accomplish the task, which was the entire point of the thread.

[nightmare]

...

Okay, I must have missed something because the EU reference I remember to CGTs indicated they were rather exotic pieces of hardware. Certainly nothing one would normally be carrying on their ships. Otherwise why did the New Republic have to go through so much trouble to just get one when they controlled Coruscant, Several captured Star Destroyers, and had Imperial defectors. Not to mention they'd render the use of the improved cloaking device even more pointless if CGTs were common enough to be normal equipment.

"Cloaking fields, as they are developing now, cannot protect against CGTs (crystal gravitational traps) since the mass of the protected vessel is not affected by the field. As most of these expensive sensors are imperial property, the need for mass baffling seems unnecessary."
- Imperial Sourcebook, pg 63.

Spanky is obviously correct - we can conclude that by the NR era, CGTs are much more rarely found than at the height of the New Order. Clearly it wasn't impossible to mass distribute them if needed at that time.

[Admiral_K]

Well I seem to recall a technology in the episode "booby trap" was it? Where the more power you used the more these devices in an asteroid field would absorb your energy and bombard you with radiation.

Now, there may be limits on how much energy they could reasonable absorb, but given the outrageous power generation of an ISD, they may very well kill themselves if attempting to escape from such a trap.

If the feds could duplicate this technology, this would be the best way to take down an ISD as you use its own strength against it.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

Well I seem to recall a technology in the episode "booby trap" was it? Where the more power you used the more these devices in an asteroid field would absorb your energy and bombard you with radiation.

Now, there may be limits on how much energy they could reasonable absorb, but given the outrageous power generation of an ISD, they may very well kill themselves if attempting to escape from such a trap.

If the feds could duplicate this technology, this would be the best way to take down an ISD as you use its own strength against it.

Well, they would have to duplicate the technology and then 'dice roll' against their own structural limits. I can just see them trying that trick, and the ISD shoots. The thing tries to absorb the energy but is ripped right off the mounting

[Robert Walper]

Well I seem to recall a technology in the episode "booby trap" was it? Where the more power you used the more these devices in an asteroid field would absorb your energy and bombard you with radiation.

Now, there may be limits on how much energy they could reasonable absorb, but given the outrageous power generation of an ISD, they may very well kill themselves if attempting to escape from such a trap.

If the feds could duplicate this technology, this would be the best way to take down an ISD as you use its own strength against it.

There'd be the question of getting the ISD in the right spot for the trap, but that might not prove too difficult. Perhaps a distress signal inside a large asteroid field(as the original trap was) thus making the ISD itself the only practical vehicle to carry out a rescue operation.

Ideally, the ISD would fire up it's engines, try to ecape and kill the entire crew(presumeably in a reason timeframe, with communications jammed/disabled). The Starfleet fleet taskforce would still be faced with with trying to operate the ISD without even any captured crewmembers to possibility help(even though that may be risky enough as well). Since a single Federation starship can tow a tiny moon, a thousand ships might not have trouble towing the ISD, even at warp if they extend their subspace fields around it. That's getting somewhat speculative though.