Bogus Bullshit, or PC truth?

Straha · Post by **Straha** » 2004-01-29 01:07pm

Someone just told me that "he" used to be used to refer to anyone, and not just males, but that it was only in recent that it became associated with men only. Now is this bullshit or true?

InnerBrat · Post by **InnerBrat** » 2004-01-29 01:18pm

True.

Just as 'man' is a genderless word, as in 'mankind' and 'fireman'

Zoink · Post by **Zoink** » 2004-01-29 01:22pm

www.dictionary.com wrote: Usage Problem. Used to refer to a person whose gender is unspecified or unknown: “He who desires but acts not, breeds pestilence” (William Blake).

they explain it further, you can ge the full text at the web site...

www.dictionary.com wrote: Traditionally the pronouns he, him, and his have been used as generic or gender-neutral singular pronouns, as in A novelist should write about what he knows best and No one seems to take any pride in his work anymore. Since the early 20th century, however, this usage has come under increasing criticism for reflecting and perpetuating gender stereotyping. ·Defenders of the traditional usage have argued that the masculine pronouns he, his, and him can be used generically to refer to men and women. This analysis of the generic use of he is linguistically doubtful. If he were truly a gender-neutral form, we would expect that it could be used to refer to the members of any group containing both men and women. But in fact the English masculine form is an odd choice when it refers to a female member of such a group.....

Zoink · Post by **Zoink** » 2004-01-29 01:27pm

They go on to suggest using "they", "he or she", or drop the generic usage(eg. "he" -> "the student") as alternatives.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2004-01-29 01:36pm

I hate it when people use "he or she." It sounds awkward. I personally always use "they."

InnerBrat · Post by **InnerBrat** » 2004-01-29 01:49pm

I use 'they' when I'm talking about any member of a group, and 'he' for a specific person I just don't know the gender of.

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2004-01-29 01:51pm

Me too.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2004-01-29 02:01pm

If I don't know the gender of someone, I will not speak as if I do.

Given the level and anonimity on the Internet and the desire to speak about people in the neutral. I am rather irritated that the English language does not have a gender neutral term for talking about singular individuals. You can use They to talk about multiple people, but what do you use to talk about a single person? It? Thats insulting. A gender neutral term for a single person needs to be developed.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2004-01-29 02:03pm

There is: They and them.

Zoink · Post by **Zoink** » 2004-01-29 02:06pm

I'm reading the thing I posted. While I agree its an old usage and there are better ways to say the same thing, I disagree with their argument.

They say the defenders of this arcane usage say it "can be used generically to refer to men and women"

The writer responds: "This analysis of the generic use of he is linguistically doubtful." They reason: "the English masculine form is an odd choice when it refers to a female member of such a group".

However, if they are refering to a specific female member or female subgroup, its no longer a generic reference to a group of men and woman.

For example

"The student should apply for the exam and he should also bring the necessary materials."

vs

"The student should apply for the exam. A female student will not be treated differently and she should apply in the same manor."

"he" in the second case would be wrong even by the 'arcane' rules stated by the 'defenders'.

kojikun · Post by **kojikun** » 2004-01-29 02:37pm

I use male words in gender neutral situations all the time. Even when talking to females, I'll address them as dude or man. If anything, you could say that by refusing to create a dichotomy I'm recognizing the equality of the sexes.

I should be on a debate team.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2004-01-29 02:39pm

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:There is: They and them.

Those are plural words. You can't accurately talk about an individual.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2004-01-29 02:40pm

Yes you can.
"I have a friend. They are at the store."

See?

Zoink · Post by **Zoink** » 2004-01-29 02:43pm

I've been told the same (that 'they' is plural and incorrect); I was surprized when I saw dictionary.com suggest its use.

But, I often use "they" none-the-less. I think it looks better than "he or she", and I figure if enough people use it, it will eventually become the new rule

Zoink · Post by **Zoink** » 2004-01-29 02:47pm

dictionary to the rescue again:

dictionary.com wrote: The use of the third-person plural pronoun they to refer to a singular noun or pronoun is attested as early as 1300, and many admired writers have used they, them, themselves, and their to refer to singular nouns such as one, a person, an individual, and each. W.M. Thackeray, for example, wrote in Vanity Fair in 1848, “A person can't help their birth,” and more recent writers such as George Bernard Shaw and Anne Morrow Lindbergh have also used this construction, in sentences such as “To do a person in means to kill them,” and “When you love someone you do not love them all the time.” The practice is widespread and can be found in such mainstream publications as the Christian Science Monitor, Discover, and the Washington Post. The usage is so common in speech that it generally passes unnoticed. ·However, despite the convenience of third-person plural forms as substitutes for generic he and for structurally awkward coordinate forms like his/her, many people avoid using they to refer to a singular antecedent out of respect for the traditional grammatical rule concerning pronoun agreement.

further:

Thus, the writer who chooses to use they in similar contexts in writing should do so only if assured that the usage will be read as a conscious choice rather than an error.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2004-01-29 02:49pm

Hooray!!

The Aliens · Post by **The Aliens** » 2004-01-29 02:57pm

That's why I prefer French, 'ils' refers to a group of either men or mixed gender- I personally use they when referring to a person I don't know the gender of.

neoolong · Post by **neoolong** » 2004-01-29 03:19pm

Or we could just use it.

XaLEv · Post by **XaLEv** » 2004-01-29 03:20pm

Alyeska wrote: Those are plural words. You can't accurately talk about an individual.

he him his
she her hers
ey em eir

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2004-01-29 03:40pm

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:Yes you can.
"I have a friend. They are at the store."

See?

Look at they over there. Isn't they so cute? They is wearing my shirt.

Zoink · Post by **Zoink** » 2004-01-29 04:22pm

The Aliens wrote:That's why I prefer French, 'ils' refers to a group of either men or mixed gender- I personally use they when referring to a person I don't know the gender of.

"They" refers to a mixed group in english. Its worse in French, you have "ils" and "elles", and use "ils" to refer to a male, unkown, or mixed group, and "elles" only if its an all-female group. English only shares this problem with french for singular usage, as the plural of both "he and she" is "they".

Its just that in French there isn't the PC attitude against using masculine-sounding words like "ils" (as far as I know).

The equivalent in french is (forgive any mistakes) "L'étudiant doit écrire l'examen ; il devrait apporter un stylo." when you don't know if its a "il ou elle."

Zoink · Post by **Zoink** » 2004-01-29 04:24pm

Alyeska wrote: Look at they over there. Isn't they so cute? They is wearing my shirt.

Look at them over there. Aren't they cute? They are wearing my shirt.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2004-01-29 04:33pm

Zoink wrote:
Alyeska wrote: Look at they over there. Isn't they so cute? They is wearing my shirt.
Look at them over there. Aren't they cute? They are wearing my shirt.

Everything you just said is plural. You can not use that to describe a single individual.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2004-01-29 04:34pm

He Him His
She Her Hers
Them/They Them Theirs

Plural or singular connotation depends on context.

It may not be grammatically correct, Alyeska, but it is socially accepted.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2004-01-29 04:38pm

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:He Him His
She Her Hers
Them/They Them Theirs

Plural or singular connotation depends on context.

It may not be grammatically correct, Alyeska, but it is socially accepted.

Actualy, it isn't. People who speak like that would be looked on like fools. Try speaking like that infront of a boss or teacher and you could seriously regret that.

And on the internet it is especialy frowned upon because people need to attempt to use proper gramar so that intention is understood. If you speak with plural terms while meaning singular, you will confuse people and intent is lost.

A singular gender neutral term is badly needed in this society, especialy since face-to-face communication is not as important as it used to be.