Bogus Bullshit, or PC truth?

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2004-01-29 04:40pm

Many, many, MANY people in my life have used those terms, Alyeska, including high school teachers and college professors.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2004-01-29 04:43pm

Additionally:

http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a3_245b.html

There has been progress on one front: the use of "they," "their," "them" as third-person singular with indefinite constructions such as "anyone," "somebody," "each," "the person who," etc. This produces sentences like "Somebody has forgotten their hat," which purists find offensive. However, as sociologist Ann Bodine points out, singular "they" was in wide use by distinguished writers of English prior to the attacks of 19th-century grammarians, and its use in speech has persisted to the present day. Not only does it fill an obvious need, it has a precedent in "you," which long ago supplanted second-person singular "thou." Cecil will go so far as to predict that within a couple generations singular "they" in many instances will be acceptable in formal written usage.

But some gaps will undoubtedly remain. The remark "A person may find themself left high and dry" would probably pass unnoticed in conversation today, but few would say, "A doctor may find themself ..." In such cases even the most ardent feminists fall back on the old standbys: rewrite to eliminate the pronoun, use plurals or second person, and so on.

Personally, I find the use of a plural as a singular to be much, much better than having to carefully construct a stilted sentence or having a brand-new gender neurtral pronoun being invented that no-one will use because it'll sound stupid.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2004-01-29 05:00pm

Using plural to talk about singular is fucking stupid because context becomes meaningless. You won't have a fucking clue who is being talked about. Either that or the sentences will sound fucking stupid when you use contradicting terms.

The most logical thing to do is introduce a gender neutral term for singular.

XaLEv · Post by **XaLEv** » 2004-01-29 05:04pm

Alyeska wrote: The most logical thing to do is introduce a gender neutral term for singular.

The problem is that when someone does do that, it largely goes ignored.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2004-01-29 05:10pm

The problem is that English doesn't have one in the first place.

I will continue to use "they" and related pronouns, as I have always done so. You can be a hardass about this as much as you want, Al.

"Did you see someone run by here just a second ago?"
"Yes, they went that way."

Nothing wrong there, in my opinion.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2004-01-29 05:14pm

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:The problem is that English doesn't have one in the first place.

I will continue to use "they" and related pronouns, as I have always done so. You can be a hardass about this as much as you want, Al.

"Did you see someone run by here just a second ago?"
"Yes, they went that way."

Nothing wrong there, in my opinion.

Except of course when you use said descriptions with someone else who doesn't know you are violating gramar. They get the impression that you are talking about multiple people. This of course can cause problems, some times even serious problems. What if someone used your concept and described someone fleeing from the scene of a crime "They went that way" and the police officer then reports to search for a group of people.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2004-01-29 05:19pm

Except that previous and further dialogue would establish the number of suspect persons. I doubt that police would just leave it at that and not be told or enquire about it. The number would be established after they asked "what happened?"

Keep in mind of all the variables and not just on isolated packets.

Zoink · Post by **Zoink** » 2004-01-29 05:25pm

If you use a generic term, you still have to contruct your sentences to make sence. The reader still has to be given information on what you're talking about.

"It went that way"

What's went that way? What "it"? A police might assume anything! Maybe they'll assume "cat" when it was a "dog"!

Unless I structure the sentence correctly: "The dog bite the person and it went that way."

The same is true with "they".

"The student is late; they are in trouble." Its clear what "they" refers to.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2004-01-29 05:27pm

Exactly. Context matters.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2004-01-29 05:29pm

And what if I want to say "Look at they over there" That makes no fucking sense. If I want to speak in the singular while using a gender neutral term I shouldn't have to alter the fucking sentence to do it. Thats the whole difference between plural and singular. Sentence structure changes and they are not readily interchangable. Simplicity states a new gender neutral term is best.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2004-01-29 05:33pm

Look at them over there. (You should know not to use "they" like that.)

Look at that person over there.

You're thinking too narrowly, Al.

General Zod · Post by **General Zod** » 2004-01-29 05:34pm

you can use they or them interchangeably, depending on the context. when referring to a specific individual and there's nobody else around, you can just say "look at them over there". it all depends on the context and meaning you're trying to get across.

EDIT: blargh. got beaten to it.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2004-01-29 05:36pm

They's over here.

Thems over here.

Oh yeah, makes a lot of fucking sense.

He is over here
She is over here

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2004-01-29 05:37pm

They're over here.

You're doing this on purpose, Al. No way you could actually be this dumb.

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-01-29 05:37pm

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:I hate it when people use "he or she." It sounds awkward. I personally always use "they."

Even in the singular?

General Zod · Post by **General Zod** » 2004-01-29 05:38pm

that's why there's more than one way of saying the same thing. you could say "They're over there". Them doesn't really have any additions to it because it's normally a plural word, though it can be used as a singular.

EDIT: bah. beaten again. the moment you post something someone else already has it nailed.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2004-01-29 05:38pm

Rogue 9 wrote:
Spanky The Dolphin wrote:I hate it when people use "he or she." It sounds awkward. I personally always use "they."
Even in the singular?

*SMACK*

Read the rest of the fucking thread, retard.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2004-01-29 05:41pm

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:They're over here.

You're doing this on purpose, Al. No way you could actually be this dumb.

That changes setence structure. Can't you fucking understand? A singular term is necesary to avoid such complications.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2004-01-29 05:42pm

And why can't you understand that in such context, using a plural pronoun as a singular pronoun is acceptable?

It's not my fucking fault that English allows us to do it.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2004-01-29 05:47pm

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:And why can't you understand that in such context, using a plural pronoun as a singular pronoun is acceptable?

It's not my fucking fault that English allows us to do it.

Actually, it doesn't. English doesn't allow the use of plural terms when talking about a lone individual. I have been graded down on that by English nazis on several college papers. The fucking teacher first told me to stop using sexist comments (IE He and She) and then he fucking graded me down for using incorrect grammar and using both plural and singular descriptions in a single sentence. This can be a big thing. If you use gramar such as you propose it can cost you dearly. Writing offical papers, resumes, college classes. Many people consider good and even perfect gramar very important and they will laugh at you for such a stupid mistake. They make assumptions as to your inteligence. Then there is the whole issue of confussion when you are talking with other people. You can't always get the information accross because of the situation, or you have to add needless descriptions or sentence alterations to make it work. The simple addition of a gender neutral singular word would solve a shitload of problems, make gramar better, and sentence construction much easier.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2004-01-29 05:49pm

Except that no-one would use it.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2004-01-29 05:52pm

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:Except that no-one would use it.

On the contrary, if it were introduced as a new standard word and was taught in school, after a period of a few years, many people would use it. Just look at how "non words" have caught on and become accepted words with proper definitions. Hell, the Oxford Dictionary has put a Simpsons definition under the word Doh.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2004-01-29 05:54pm

Well, I'm damn happy with they-based singulars, and I've never been corrected yet, seeing as everyone else uses it, too.

The Dark · Post by **The Dark** » 2004-01-29 05:56pm

Zoink wrote:
The Aliens wrote:That's why I prefer French, 'ils' refers to a group of either men or mixed gender- I personally use they when referring to a person I don't know the gender of.
"They" refers to a mixed group in english. Its worse in French, you have "ils" and "elles", and use "ils" to refer to a male, unkown, or mixed group, and "elles" only if its an all-female group. English only shares this problem with french for singular usage, as the plural of both "he and she" is "they".

Its just that in French there isn't the PC attitude against using masculine-sounding words like "ils" (as far as I know).

The equivalent in french is (forgive any mistakes) "L'étudiant doit écrire l'examen ; il devrait apporter un stylo." when you don't know if its a "il ou elle."

Technically, you could use "on". French has a third person gender-neutral singular, just not a third person neutral plural. Their person/gender combinations are similar but more numerous than English.

Je - I
Tu - You (familiar singular)
Il - He
Elle - She
On - It
Nous - We
Vous - You (plural or formal singular)
Ils - They (masculine or mixed or unknown)
Elles - They (feminine)

They have the extra third person neutral singular, and split the third person plural into masculine and feminine (as opposed to English, where we have only masculine and feminine singular, and only neutral plural).

phongn · Post by **phongn** » 2004-01-29 06:03pm

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:Well, I'm damn happy with they-based singulars, and I've never been corrected yet, seeing as everyone else uses it, too.

I've been corrected on papers for using "they" as a gender-neutral singular. We are expected to use "he" in those instances.