Space Marines Versus Stormtroopers.

[NecronLord]

Provided of course that Stormtrooper blasters are as powerful as IoM plasma weapons which are anti-armor weapons.

Megajoule ranged weapons, I remember this 40k weapon rated at a couple of Megawatts myself that took on tanks.

Could you be, remotely, specific?

[His Divine Shadow]

Could you be, remotely, specific?

No, since I do not know the weapons name, but I do know that ratings on the clonetrooper rifle puts it around 8MJ and Solos pistol in ANH showed feats that would have required atleast 1MJ>

[His Divine Shadow]

Your erroneous assumption here is that an E-11 is identical to a plasma gun. Plasma guns fire fusion plasma, at around 10,000 degrees celsius If an e-11 had anywhere near that firepower not only would it have killed solo when the blast passes within a few inches of him in the Detention Block, it wooulf also, when in the novellisiation, Luke turns it up to full power, probably have blasted away the door in one shot.

Quote about Luke turning it up to full power and where.
Secondly you assume they just fire the plasma just out of the weapon thats it? Noo, the bolt is red, this is proof of an unknown contaniment field of unknown nature holding the plasma inside, the ordinary way of just a magnetic contaniment would bleed so much energy to the surroundings it'd be downright dangerous to fire a weapon of any real power that way.

[NecronLord]

Your erroneous assumption here is that an E-11 is identical to a plasma gun. Plasma guns fire fusion plasma, at around 10,000 degrees celsius If an e-11 had anywhere near that firepower not only would it have killed solo when the blast passes within a few inches of him in the Detention Block, it wooulf also, when in the novellisiation, Luke turns it up to full power, probably have blasted away the door in one shot.

Quote about Luke turning it up to full power and where.
Secondly you assume they just fire the plasma just out of the weapon thats it? Noo, the bolt is red, this is proof of an unknown contaniment field of unknown nature holding the plasma inside, the ordinary way of just a magnetic contaniment would bleed so much energy to the surroundings it'd be downright dangerous to fire a weapon of any real power that way.

"Turning his pistol to maximum and hoping it wouldn't melt his hand before it broke through, he opened fire on the door. When the weapon became too hot to hold,..."
ANH novellisation 1977 edition, page 126.

Clearly indicated is the fact that multiple blaster shots are required to melt though the cell door, and this is cannon.

Need I remind you that neon in a low energy plasma state glows pink? also, they come in green bolts as well. (TPM). It is more likely that this is due to the nature of "blaster gas."

[white_rabbit]

Provided of course that Stormtrooper blasters are as powerful as IoM plasma weapons which are anti-armor weapons.

Megajoule ranged weapons, I remember this 40k weapon rated at a couple of Megawatts myself that took on tanks.

That would be the Necrontyr Gauss Flayer....an insane technobabble weapon that cuts through tank armour...its some form of phase/teleportation weapon and is not an indication of the crapness of Imperium armour, Necron stuff is insanely cheesy, since a mechanical bug the size of you fist can destroy a Heavy tank....

Hi, white_rabbit

Heya, hows it going ?

an open, terribly exposed two-man platform with heavy firepower and the ability to make high speed attacks

Can it pull 17 gees ?

And its a bit lightly armed in comparison to a Landspeeder, they tend to have Multimeltas, assault Cannons, Heavy Bolters and such.

Why can't the ISD do the same instead?

Hmm, I was thinking because it dont have big enough guns personally..

hoot the high heat plasma at targets to catastrophic effect.

However, they shoot it as a beam, not as a bolt, so you werent actually talking about the same weapon were you ..and are a wee bit meaner, since last time I checked, a man portable SW "plasma" weapon, doesnt reduce an entire squad to ash..

Oh, and da beastie was charging and "weighed in" at over two tonnes..

The one that rammed the Tank was 6 tonnes or more... didnt really move it that far, another hit a Chimera and bashed it..

Thank you, you now have answered the question you asked me in the gaming forum on SB.

Gee, that would be witty, except I cant remember what you were talking about..

boostable to 1 to 2 km with a stabilized mount

Stated as 2000metres for a rifle..

6-shot missile tubes that fire homing or dumb-fired miniature proton torpedoes capable of wiping out combat airspeeders with one shot or significantly damaging AT-ATs or starfighters with a lucky shot.

I thought we were talking about plasma weapons ???

Plenty more big guns in a Chapters arsenal...

more recent heavy stormtrooper rifle, has a maximum power shot that will punch a .5m crater in a reinforced conrete wall

Uhuh, this is supposed to impress me ?

Lasguns easily penetrate hardened cover, Guard Snipers with auspex/vison enhancement etc shoot through duracrete(reinforced concrete) walls regularly ! hell, the normal Guard do this,

terminate a 3 meter tall armored humanoid

Meaning ? What ? It disintigrated it ?, mildly charred its circuits causing to shut down ? what ?

an IoM plasma small arm has an ammunition capacity of 20 shots, 10 shots per cell or flask painstakingly screwed into the corresponding receptacle.

Umm, yes ? it has a lower ammo capacity, but its still a more powerful weapon..extremely more powerful, as the various examples you provided have shown..

On a full setting, will the E-11 blaster rifle, reduced a human to ash ? Cause thats what plasma pistols do!

Its news to me if it does !

As for plasma grenades, they are not DIRECTED plasma weapons, you dolt! Thus

The effect of plasma/frag/photon flash grenades in the edition you are talking about is to negate the advantages provided by cover, by various methods, previous plasma weapons blew stuff up...

like space marines....which is why i included them, also you should perhaps consider that the rules of 40k are gamebalanced rules...which is why Space Marines are killable with a single lasrifle shot..if you are lucky..

downrated plasma weapons of the sort that might have been used instead of bolt weapons during the Dark Ages of Technology

Now you are just making stuff up to sound better, save conjecture like that for when its relevant..

Were we to bring grenades into the equation, we'd have to include the thermal detonators issued as standard gear to stormtroopers, as well as all the other gimcrackery

please do, Im rather confident in that respect...seeing as the bolter doesnt have any setting beyond "disintigrate your *insert body part* "

Imperial blaster weapons actually improve their antiarmor capabilities.

Which is why the Imperium uses handy dandy Lasers and Missiles for their real tank busting weapons, as well as the odd meltagun.

*muses* Or I suppose they could just smash through an ATATs leg with a powerfist...

Easily done really, a few Assault Troopers, and you can kiss your woefully inadequate Walkers goodbye...


So, where exactly in that nice long post of yours was an example of a SW plasma weapon, that can be carried by a single Stormy, equalling the handheld plasma weapons that Space Marines have ?

I have a question as well, are those TDs Class A ? I have trouble believing that the Stormys would be issued with those as standard, not with their armour...

Are you going to address the quality of the troops either ?

A Space Marine is going to be faster, stronger, tougher, and more intensively trained than a stormy, they are also going to fight to the death, no matter the odds, Space Marines cannot be broken, if by any chance you are reading this and smirking about how in the game they fall back, you should remember that this is qualifiyed with an explaination, its always tactical, and they will instantly regroup, without any sort of test.

As you mentioned, in close combat, unless Stormys have gotten hold of some monomol weapons, they will smash them to shreds .

Long range combat, Marines have their own artillery, Heavy tanks like Land Raiders, medium vehicles like Preds , and they are far more mobile than Stormys, they can move faster and longer on foot, and have plenty of fast moving transportation on the ground and in the air.

It's a tenouous sort of thing, but it's official EU and not contradicted by canon. The relevant quote is in "The Essential Guide to Weapons and Technology."

I think I know the one you are talking about BTW, looks like a speeder on steroids with no armour at all..

[His Divine Shadow]

"Turning his pistol to maximum and hoping it wouldn't melt his hand before it broke through, he opened fire on the door. When the weapon became too hot to hold,..."
ANH novellisation 1977 edition, page 126.

Clearly indicated is the fact that multiple blaster shots are required to melt though the cell door, and this is cannon.

Oh yes, the blast door, ah yes, if it had been iron we are looking at energies in the hundreds of MJ range to melt the door, we also know it's no problem for them to put those kind of energies into small containers as we see with the Lightsabers and their effects on doors(TPM).

Need I remind you that neon in a low energy plasma state glows pink? also, they come in green bolts as well. (TPM). It is more likely that this is due to the nature of "blaster gas."

And thats still not what this is, because at such low power it would have no destructive damage

[NecronLord]

Could you be, remotely, specific?

No, since I do not know the weapons name, but I do know that ratings on the clonetrooper rifle puts it around 8MJ and Solos pistol in ANH showed feats that would have required atleast 1MJ>

And you can therefore not prove that the 40K weapon is not 999MW?
without any evidence at all, that may be a difficult task.

[His Divine Shadow]

That would be the Necrontyr Gauss Flayer....an insane technobabble weapon that cuts through tank armour...its some form of phase/teleportation weapon and is not an indication of the crapness of Imperium armour, Necron stuff is insanely cheesy, since a mechanical bug the size of you fist can destroy a Heavy tank....

When it was discussed on Sb I don't remember anyone saying there was anything cheesy or technobabbly about it, 8MW or something I think it was, 10MJ is what a tank shot from an Abrahms is worth, so that could bear 8MJ/second, thats not a little amount of energy either way and it coming every second I can certanly see it hurting armor.

[His Divine Shadow]

And you can therefore not prove that the 40K weapon is not 999MW?
without any evidence at all, that may be a difficult task.

I do remember it was not more than one digit, and 999MW is a stupid figure for such a weapon anyway, 8-9MW or so, which I think it was is almost equal to a shot from an Abhrams every second, that can very likely cut tanks, even sci-fi tanks, if focused neatly.

[NecronLord]

"Turning his pistol to maximum and hoping it wouldn't melt his hand before it broke through, he opened fire on the door. When the weapon became too hot to hold,..."
ANH novellisation 1977 edition, page 126.

Clearly indicated is the fact that multiple blaster shots are required to melt though the cell door, and this is cannon.

Oh yes, the blast door, ah yes, if it had been iron we are looking at energies in the hundreds of MJ range to melt the door, we also know it's no problem for them to put those kind of energies into small containers as we see with the Lightsabers and their effects on doors(TPM).

If it were an Iorn door then an IoM plasma gun would slice through it...
The armour of a land raider is equivalent to 12" hardend steel armour. As these are puched though by a plasma pistol with no effort at all..

Please note, I also saw darth mauls 'saber bounce off the floor in TPM.

Need I remind you that neon in a low energy plasma state glows pink? also, they come in green bolts as well. (TPM). It is more likely that this is due to the nature of "blaster gas."

And thats still not what this is, because at such low power it would have no destructive damage

WHAT?
I never claimed it was neon, merely that plasma can be red... therefore negating your citing this as proof.

[NecronLord]

And you can therefore not prove that the 40K weapon is not 999MW?
without any evidence at all, that may be a difficult task.

I do remember it was not more than one digit, and 999MW is a stupid figure for such a weapon anyway, 8-9MW or so, which I think it was is almost equal to a shot from an Abhrams every second, that can very likely cut tanks, even sci-fi tanks, if focused neatly.

It doesn't matter what you remember, DarkStar remembers that the Death Star uses a funky thing to blow up planets...

No evidence yet...

[NecronLord]

That would be the Necrontyr Gauss Flayer....an insane technobabble weapon that cuts through tank armour...its some form of phase/teleportation weapon and is not an indication of the crapness of Imperium armour, Necron stuff is insanely cheesy, since a mechanical bug the size of you fist can destroy a Heavy tank....

Just out of curiosity where is that?

[NecronLord]

PS. we resent the label cheesy...

no-one calls the culture cheesy, but because we are in 40 we're cheesey mutter mutter grumble

[white_rabbit]

That would be the Necrontyr Gauss Flayer....an insane technobabble weapon that cuts through tank armour...its some form of phase/teleportation weapon and is not an indication of the crapness of Imperium armour, Necron stuff is insanely cheesy, since a mechanical bug the size of you fist can destroy a Heavy tank....

Just out of curiosity where is that?

Well, it depends on whether he was talking about the Gauss flayer or not.. but theres a bit in the back of the Codex on the nature of Necron weapons...

But Ive realised he isnt, hes referring to the energy field around a powerfist, which in a little picture in the Marines codex has the line..

" 8mw disruption field "

Which since I posted on SB I should know

However, i suppose it depends on whether its 8 megawatts, and how its focused, etc etc blah, blah, blah..

equivalent to 12" hardend steel armour

As well as having all the various ablative and energy dissapation effects referred to by the text..

[His Divine Shadow]

If it were an Iorn door then an IoM plasma gun would slice through it...

You know this how? I find it hard to buy since you don't know much about the doors dimensions.
Regardless it wasn't made of iron.

The armour of a land raider is equivalent to 12" hardend steel armour. As these are puched though by a plasma pistol with no effort at all..

And a DL-44 at fullpower could not do this why? Several MJ of focused thermal energy would do something thats for sure.
And it's equivalent to a 12" hardened steel armor in what way? In thermal absorption of it's ability to absorb KE impacts?
It all depends.

Please note, I also saw darth mauls 'saber bounce off the floor in TPM.

So?

WHAT?
I never claimed it was neon, merely that plasma can be red... therefore negating your citing this as proof.

It's NOT negated, since plasma of any real destructive energy WILL glow white and spill ALOT of light to it's surroundings, when it gets to the point where it's actual plasma it will do so.

I am not sure it's valid to call red glowing neon as _true_ plasma either.
You do know that the luminsense depends on the energy it contains, just like it does with stars and the color they are.

And it would not fit with what is seen on screen either given its destructive effects and the energy it would have to contain and radiate(yet not hurting solo when it was that close to his head), you showed it yourself previous in this post.
So the conclusion must be that they use an unknown forcefield, possibly a deriviate of their shield tech.

It doesn't matter what you remember, DarkStar remembers that the Death Star uses a funky thing to blow up planets...
No evidence yet...

Why are you being such an asshole to me now?
I don't get this, your whole attitude to me seems to have done a 180 on me for some reason, is it becase I am arguing AGAINST 40k?

Doesn't matter it's true, white_rabbit confirmed it's existence already.

[white_rabbit]

PS. we resent the label cheesy...

no-one calls the culture cheesy, but because we are in 40 we're cheesey mutter mutter grumble

Look, your little bug guys can blow up my Landraider...if thats not cheesy, I dont know what is!!

[His Divine Shadow]

Well I ain't arguing against it as much as I am arguing technicalities of both it and SW.

[His Divine Shadow]

Anyhow, we're obviously debating plasma weapons and blasters, let's keep it on track now.

I say blaster pistols are in the megajoule range.

Ok, so have you made any calcs? And for what weapons, what size?

[white_rabbit]

Anyhow, we're obviously debating plasma weapons and blasters, let's keep it on track now.

I say blaster pistols are in the megajoule range.

Ok, so have you made any calcs? And for what weapons, what size?

I havent personally, neither has anyone I know.... Theres the 3000-6000 gigaton torpedo salvos calculations, and I believe you did some Lance calcs...but for ground weapons...not a sausage...

But I suppose it could be done,

[His Divine Shadow]

Oh yeah, if you want something from SW that for once would rape your space marines in one on ones, try the Yuuzhan Vong Hunter-Killer droids from the NJO, state of the art, and they have a blaster arm that can fire a max power shot that would blow a fricking fighter to pieces.
Thats TOUGH.

[His Divine Shadow]

I havent personally, neither has anyone I know.... Theres the 3000-6000 gigaton torpedo salvos calculations, and I believe you did some Lance calcs...but for ground weapons...not a sausage...

But I suppose it could be done,

Yes well my lance calcs are pretty high but they are also innacurate since the planetoid wasn't vaporized, I am certain the figures are more in the hundreds of GT or a few teratons range.

[white_rabbit]

Oh yeah, if you want something from SW that for once would rape your space marines in one on ones, try the Yuuzhan Vong Hunter-Killer droids from the NJO, state of the art, and they have a blaster arm that can fire a max power shot that would blow a fricking fighter to pieces.
Thats TOUGH.

I see your Hunter Killer, and Raise you a fully souped up Dreadnought (just cause I love the extra searchlights )

Depending on its setup, it could alternately pull the Droid apart, blow it way with twin-linked lascannons or a mulitmelta are blast it with an extra missle pack..

And I can go Higher!

For your ATATs, I raise you a Warhound Titan

[NecronLord]

If it were an Iorn door then an IoM plasma gun would slice through it...

You know this how? I find it hard to buy since you don't know much about the doors dimensions.
Regardless it wasn't made of iron.

this is leia's cell door it's talking about there

The armour of a land raider is equivalent to 12" hardend steel armour. As these are puched though by a plasma pistol with no effort at all..

And a DL-44 at fullpower could not do this why? Several MJ of focused thermal energy would do something thats for sure.
And it's equivalent to a 12" hardened steel armor in what way? In thermal absorption of it's ability to absorb KE impacts?
It all depends.

unknown it is from a diagram of a land raider in one of the white dwarf magazines

Please note, I also saw darth mauls 'saber bounce off the floor in TPM.

So?

WHAT?
I never claimed it was neon, merely that plasma can be red... therefore negating your citing this as proof.

It's NOT negated, since plasma of any real destructive energy WILL glow white and spill ALOT of light to it's surroundings, when it gets to the point where it's actual plasma it will do so.

who said it had any real destructive power (kidding)

I am not sure it's valid to call red glowing neon as _true_ plasma either.
You do know that the luminsense depends on the energy it contains, just like it does with stars and the color they are.

And it would not fit with what is seen on screen either given its destructive effects and the energy it would have to contain and radiate(yet not hurting solo when it was that close to his head), you showed it yourself previous in this post.
So the conclusion must be that they use an unknown forcefield, possibly a deriviate of their shield tech.

you are of course correct here. The baseters do of course use a containment field (else you could not deflect them with a saber) but the likelyhood of them taking out a marine on anyting but absolout powerpack draining setting is pretty low.

It doesn't matter what you remember, DarkStar remembers that the Death Star uses a funky thing to blow up planets...
No evidence yet...

Why are you being such an asshole to me now?
I don't get this, your whole attitude to me seems to have done a 180 on me for some reason, is it becase I am arguing AGAINST 40k?

Doesn't matter it's true, white_rabbit confirmed it's existence already.[/quote]

Because you are adding never before seen qualities to the E-11?
I'm not being an asshole at all. you don't want to see me be an asshole.

actually he just retracted it. (I checked that page in the necron codex it says nothing regarding power)

GTG for tonight, I'll be on tomorrow though...

[white_rabbit]

I havent personally, neither has anyone I know.... Theres the 3000-6000 gigaton torpedo salvos calculations, and I believe you did some Lance calcs...but for ground weapons...not a sausage...

But I suppose it could be done,

Yes well my lance calcs are pretty high but they are also innacurate since the planetoid wasn't vaporized, I am certain the figures are more in the hundreds of GT or a few teratons range.

Well, those lances are just about the weakest around, only strength 3

[Patrick Ogaard]

You mean a Neon Sign can destroy a marine? This is trekkie style idiocy on a par with the turbolasers can not hurt navigational deflectors argument.

Point 1: Imperium of Man plasma guns (pistols, rifles AKA "guns", and manpack or vehicular cannon) heat hydrogen gas into a plasma, contain it magnetically and shoot the high heat plasma at targets to catastrophic effect.

Actually if you look carefully, its Duterium, fusion occours in the plasma bolt

Point 2: Galactic Empire plasma small arms (blaster pistols, carbines, riot guns, rifles, etc.) heat "blaster gas" into a plasma, contain it magnetically and shoot the high heat plasma at targets to catastrophic effect.

High energy DIRECTED plasma guns like Imperial blasters and IoM plasma guns are extremely good against armor in both the Star Wars and WH40K universes.

What I was not talking about was relatively low energy DIRECTED plasma discharges, like B5 Earthforce PPG small arms, nor was I talking about omnidirectional plasma attacks. An Earthforce PPG, much like a Tau pulse small arm, would not tear right through space marine armor, anymore than a common IoM lasgun would.

The important thing to remember here is that Imperial-issue blaster weapons can be used as both: low-powered antipersonnel weapons suitable for engaging lightly protected opponents like Imperial Guard infantry, and high-powered weapons suitable for blowing nasty holes in heavily armored targets.

My erroneous assumption here was that we'd all be familiar with the basic capabilities of Imperial blaster weaponry, making it unnecessary to add in all manner of tedious explanations and explications. I also assumed that it would be painfully obvious that I meant, specifically, plasma weapons displaying the same terminal characteristics as the plasma guns used by the Imperium of Man: guns that shoot a directed bolt of high energy plasma to knock really big, really nasty holes in stuff.

Right, one not only are you comparing a pistol to a carbine.


Your erroneous assumption here is that an E-11 is identical to a plasma gun. Plasma guns fire fusion plasma, at around 10,000 degrees celsius If an e-11 had anywhere near that firepower not only would it have killed solo when the blast passes within a few inches of him in the Detention Block, it wooulf also, when in the novellisiation, Luke turns it up to full power, probably have blasted away the door in one shot.

This is trekkie logic.

You're being difficult here.

Page 60, Warhammer 40,000 Rulebook, page heading Weapons of the 41st Millenium, section heading Plasma Weapons:

"Ammunition for plasma guns consists of a photonic hydrogen cell or flask. Two of these vessels are ususally screwed into place inside the weapon before battle. These two flasks feed a fusion core, where the hydrogen becomes highly energised and converts into a plasma state. The plasma is held in the core by a powerful magnetic field, then allowed to escape along a linear magnetic accelerator, speeding the plasma 'bolt' towards its target. The molten gas explodes on impact, generating the destructive heat of a small sun before dissipating."

This is not an indication of fusion occuring within the bolt after it exits the gun. Rather, it is an indication that, at best, a very small fusion reaction occurs within a tiny portion of the plasma, further heating the plasma in the firing chamber, and that the hot plasma relies on velocity and heat to destroy a target.

As for my comparing a pistol, carbine and rifle, you should know better:

From "The Essential Guide to Weapons and Technology":

"A weapon made famous by the smuggler turned diplomat Han Solo, the BlasTech DL-44 heavy blaster pistol packs the formidable punch of a high-powered rifle into a small sidearm not much bigger than a standard pistol."


Then have a look at the AOTC Visual Dictionary, page 39. The standard clonetrooper rifle is the DC-15 rifle, whose dimensions are virtually identical to the long blaster rifles (movie prop MG34 Wehrmacht machine guns) used by stormtroopers and a certain enraged Wookie. According to the AOTC ICS, the weapon's maximum power setting can knock a .5 meter crater in a reinforced concrete (ferrocrete) wall. This is accomplished by hyper-ionizing Tibanna gas ino charged plasma in an igniter chamber, after which the resulting bolt is accelerated out of the gun electromagnetically.

The shorter version is the DC-15 rifle, whose dimensions are virtually identical to the E-11 blaster rifle sidearms carried by stormtroopers. Both even have folding stocks. The only two changes between the DC-15 rifle and its shorter cousin are the following: the blaster lacks a fixed stock, scope and the extra length of collimating barrel needed for long range fire. Otherwise, the weapons are completely identical, and should therefore have the same performance against targets.

Stormtrooper weapons are designed for the same purposes as clonetrooper weapons, using the same engineering capabilities, plus experience regarding the performance of clonetrooper weapons in actual combat.

The fact that Solo's handgun can achieve the same effects as a clonetrooper rifle is illustrated by the shootout in the docking bay when the Millenium Falcon flees Mos Eisley.

As for proximity bolts in the detention block killing through thermal transfer while the bolts zing by ... you do realize that if it worked quite like that with IoM plasma weapons, Colonel Schaeffer could not carry a plasma pistol, since doing so would quickly kill him or at the very least fry his arm (at which point the Last Chancers would raise a rousing cheer, no doubt). Plasma gunners in the Imperial Guard would have to be suicide troops, firing once and disappearing in a column of flames.

As for the incident in the novelization, that's not the way it happened in the movie, and is therefore superseded by the movie itself. Also, simple logic would indicate that using the gun that way would have turned the cell into a kiln and likely reduced Leia to a toasted corpse.




Now, as for an alternate route that this little discusion could have taken, in response to an inquiry as to what I would rate a standard stormtrooper sidearm as in WH40K terms:

E-11 blaster
Rapid fire
Range 24" (equivalent to other rifle-type weapons in 40K)
STR 5
AP 2

Stormtrooper heavy blaster rifle
Rapid fire (Heavy 2 on tripod mount)
Range 36" (equivalent to a multilaser), but 60" on a tripod mount (shooter may not move during battle or loses use of tripod mount range for rest of battle
STR 5
AP 2

Standard Imperial Stormtrooper profile:
WS 3
BS 4
S 3
T 3
W 1
I 4
A 1
Ld 8
Sv 4+

The fully sealed, heat-resistant carapace armor of Imperial stormtroopers leaves them unaffected by attacks using poisonous gases or biological weapons, and allows them a two armor saves versus flamer attacks (though not against inferno cannon). The sensors in stormtrooper helmets also allow stormtroopers to disregard night fighting rules, treating night fights as normal daylight fights, and all stormtroopers are considered to be equipped with targeters.


If you'd go back and read over my initial posts, I gave a space marine chapter even odds against the full 9,700-trooper complement of an ISD. That would, counting only ground combat assets, make the space marines the equivalent of ten times their number in Imperial stormtroopers. In particular, the various fast attack and elite assets of the space marines would be effective. A terminator squad teleported into the midst or rear of a stormtrooper unit engaged with regular space marines would be right unpleasant. The closest equivalent official gear the stormtroopers have would be close combat blaster pistols, vibro blades and force pikes, none of which would be common gear for normal deployments. A squad of marines with jump packs would be similarly difficult to deal with.