The technology level question answered.

[The Kernel]

Ah, but is it C, or is it, in fact, C++? I shall leave you to wrestle with that question.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't iostream a C++ library file?

[Stewart at SDI]

In the origional serries, FTL combat was the norm. In the first season alone, there were to many examples to list. My favorite is between the "Orion Pirates" and The Enterprise that is transporting the delegates to some conference or summit. the two ships exchange head on passes at what is obviously FTL speeds for both units, not slowing to sub-light speeds at all. Other examples are the two battles with Romulans, two battles with Kilngons and one with gorns, all conducted at FTL speeds.

In every shot that shows the Enterprise firing either weapon, phasers or torps, the ship is obviously moving at FTL speeds. The targets are either moving in the same or oposite directions depending on which episode you are watching.

As to maximum speeds, the typical extirior ship shot from every ST show depicts the ships zipping threw space with the back ground stars going by several per second. Acording to Dr. Gilewski, A little known Astro physisist friend, this equates to between 200-300,000,000 times the speed of light. There are no places in this galaxy that they have been that the density of stars could equal any speed less than this. In several shows and at least one movie, the Enterprise travels the half span of the Galaxy, a minimum of 45,000 LY, in under one day, just as the Ships in the SW universe do if you belive the books are cannon. That there is no foundation in any of the movies for the distances claimed by people on this board and it is not reallivant to this discusion. As it is made cannon by the books. It is my point that there are defects in both settings and that the contradictions must be ignored or they will cancel out any point you want to make. The ST people on other boards are just as picky about the SW defects and can recite them all at will. But they do not understand the ideas either. If the books are good for one side then they must be good for both. There are more than afew referances to speeds as high as Warp-15 and the calculations and charts depict this as many hundreds of millions of times the speed of light. Which defect do you want to ignore. Like I said, you can always find a reason to use less of your capasity than you do, but that still does not mean that you can't. My car will go 142 MPH, I've timed it, but I chose not to do that most of the time that I drive. As to what ever causes Janeway to take 75 years to go the distance what has that gotr to do with the speed of other ships in other places.

Transporters and S&S. That the scanners can detect indavidual atoms from orbit so that they can be teleported 80,000 Km, is an example of scanner acuracy and sencitivity. The fact that "Transporters" are everyday items, used in leu of shuttle craft must be factored into their aceptance and commonality. Also, Replicators that may be closely related to transporters are so wide spread and inexpensive that they can be given away to indavidual refugees without cost says something about the technology of the civilisation.

S&S have at one time or another detected ships 13-15 hours away at maximum warp. Nothing in any movie depicts anything like this range. In fact they are not able to scan inside the shuttle Tiberious from a few dozen or hundred yards. This ability to see whats inside other ships has been shown many times in the ST universe. That the various people have to land to dispach probes to find things in all three of the first movies says everthing I need to about SW sensors.

That the fire power of units in the SW settings is in dispute is to ignore the obvious. My other post about turbolaser cannons is a case in point. That there could be other mechanisms for the effects shown by the DS-1 Super laser that changes the resulting figures dramaticly is also possable. An alternate possability that is also not reallivant to this discussion, is that the shot meerly opened a hole to the planets core and then a pluse of high energy nutrons was fired into the heavy metal core that is thought to rest in the center of every high dencity planet. The planets core then supplies all the energy to blow up the planet. It does not matter because it is just an effect of scale not a fundamental effect of technology.

As an aside, the ST universe has several diferent and much more compact planet killers, the Genisis device, (I've read the sigle example theory and it does not hold water, once they know it can be done that's half the battle) the Romulan beam that vaporised every living thing on the face of the planet in the Achiology puzzel episode and some missile from the gama quadrant. All in all, three quite compact weapons, two that fighter/shuttles could cary. The death star seems quite behind in the technology of distruction race.

EW, ECM and ECCM if they had it how come solo did not know that his ship was bugged? How come no scien in any movie shows it's use or effects? In the ST universe, they can lower you shields, scan your innards and block your scanners. There are only two examples of EW in any of the SW movies, the 3rd. There is no example of ECCM in any movie.

Please do not confuse scale with effect of technology. It is possable to change the scale of anything but if the tech does not exist then that effect is not available to you.

The American allied people on the ground in South East Asia never lost a battle, ever. Our losses in battle were less that 40,000 and only go to 55,000 when acidents and illness are included. The "Official" total from the North Viet Namise them selves, is 2.05 million combat deaths, including the VC. 3 million more wounded and 3 more millions dead from accedent and ilness. I would say that we kicked there rearends but lost because Liboral Democrats did not have the courage to see it threw. Every reputable expert concluded long ago that the war was over 6-9 months after we chose to go all out and win the thing. Chinees intervention just provides a target rich environment just like SW.

One of the marks of advanced technology is the reduction in size as things get more advanced. I see the size of Impirial units and think they can not be that good or they could do the job with smaller units.

Finaly, again just because you chose to do one thing, does not mean that you can not do an other. Therefore none of the negitive examples count only the positive and best show what is truely the pinacle of your technology. It is the best that you can do that sets the bar not the average or worst example that make the mean.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

May I recommend not to write so densely?

[The Kernel]

Dude, you really need to read the main site. Every single one of the points you mention is discussed in detail.

[Straha]

In the origional serries, FTL combat was the norm. In the first season alone, there were to many examples to list. My favorite is between the "Orion Pirates" and The Enterprise that is transporting the delegates to some conference or summit. the two ships exchange head on passes at what is obviously FTL speeds for both units, not slowing to sub-light speeds at all. Other examples are the two battles with Romulans, two battles with Kilngons and one with gorns, all conducted at FTL speeds.

In every shot that shows the Enterprise firing either weapon, phasers or torps, the ship is obviously moving at FTL speeds. The targets are either moving in the same or oposite directions depending on which episode you are watching.

Except they were both travelling at similar speeds going similar ways and thus it wasn't FTL. It's like saying it's really hard to throw a ball between ships when they are both going at thirty knots, going the same way, 10 yards away from each other.

As to maximum speeds, the typical extirior ship shot from every ST show depicts the ships zipping threw space with the back ground stars going by several per second. Acording to Dr. Gilewski, A little known Astro physisist friend, this equates to between 200-300,000,000 times the speed of light. There are no places in this galaxy that they have been that the density of stars could equal any speed less than this.

Except it take days or weeks for them to actually get to the other stars, hence either they aren't going that fast, or have really realy really really crappy sensors.

In several shows and at least one movie, the Enterprise travels the half span of the Galaxy, a minimum of 45,000 LY, in under one day, just as the Ships in the SW universe do if you belive the books are cannon. That there is no foundation in any of the movies for the distances claimed by people on this board and it is not reallivant to this discusion.

It's in the Light & Magic CD I think, not the books, and it's a commentary on the movies which are CANNON according to the Lucas Film policy.

As it is made cannon by the books. It is my point that there are defects in both settings and that the contradictions must be ignored or they will cancel out any point you want to make.

Except it is recognized as Canon by LucasFilms, deal with it.

The ST people on other boards are just as picky about the SW defects and can recite them all at will. But they do not understand the ideas either. If the books are good for one side then they must be good for both.

No, because the Paramount policy is that books (except for two and then it is only charecter development) are NOT cannon. That doesn't hold water.

There are more than afew referances to speeds as high as Warp-15 and the calculations and charts depict this as many hundreds of millions of times the speed of light. Which defect do you want to ignore. Like I said, you can always find a reason to use less of your capasity than you do, but that still does not mean that you can't. My car will go 142 MPH, I've timed it, but I chose not to do that most of the time that I drive.

Sure ye have

As to what ever causes Janeway to take 75 years to go the distance what has that gotr to do with the speed of other ships in other places.

Yes? Going to finish that?

Transporters and S&S. That the scanners can detect indavidual atoms from orbit so that they can be teleported 80,000 Km, is an example of scanner acuracy and sencitivity.

Proof that SW doesn't have this, and proof that ST does?

The fact that "Transporters" are everyday items, used in leu of shuttle craft must be factored into their aceptance and commonality. Also, Replicators that may be closely related to transporters are so wide spread and inexpensive that they can be given away to indavidual refugees without cost says something about the technology of the civilisation.

So? What does that mean beyond the Federation being a communistic society? Does that mean that the actual replicators that Star Fleet uses are these UBER Replicators that can make ISD HTL multi gigaton yields go away?

S&S have at one time or another detected ships 13-15 hours away at maximum warp. Nothing in any movie depicts anything like this range. In fact they are not able to scan inside the shuttle Tiberious from a few dozen or hundred yards. This ability to see whats inside other ships has been shown many times in the ST universe. That the various people have to land to dispach probes to find things in all three of the first movies says everthing I need to about SW sensors.

The Shuttle was scanned, but IIRC they had the men hidden, and they had no reason to stop the shuttle. Besides Darth Vader wanted Luke to reach the planet so he could confront him. Further more have we ever seen this ability for ST ships to see into other ships (except for maybe one episode?)

That the fire power of units in the SW settings is in dispute is to ignore the obvious. My other post about turbolaser cannons is a case in point.

BDZ, when you can explain where the power for that comes from, then you can talk.

That there could be other mechanisms for the effects shown by the DS-1 Super laser that changes the resulting figures dramaticly is also possable. An alternate possability that is also not reallivant to this discussion, is that the shot meerly opened a hole to the planets core and then a pluse of high energy nutrons was fired into the heavy metal core that is thought to rest in the center of every high dencity planet. The planets core then supplies all the energy to blow up the planet. It does not matter because it is just an effect of scale not a fundamental effect of technology.

How does firing Neutrons into a core of a planet make it go boom? And where in the hell does the core get it from?

As an aside, the ST universe has several diferent and much more compact planet killers, the Genisis device, (I've read the sigle example theory and it does not hold water, once they know it can be done that's half the battle) the Romulan beam that vaporised every living thing on the face of the planet in the Achiology puzzel episode and some missile from the gama quadrant. All in all, three quite compact weapons, two that fighter/shuttles could cary. The death star seems quite behind in the technology of distruction race.

Gensis maybe but they still have to deploy it. I have no clue what the Romulan beam is so I'll withhold comment, and do you honnestly think the Federation will be able to call apon missles from the Gamma quadrant in its time of need?

EW, ECM and ECCM if they had it how come solo did not know that his ship was bugged?

Maybe, suprise, because he didn't look, or maybe because the bug was using ECM itself?!?!

How come no [scene] movie shows it's use or effects?

What about in ROTJ where the incoming ships cannot detect the Death Star shield? HOw about when Luke and Leia jam the Scout Troopers radios? That is grade A BULLSHIT!

In the ST universe, they can lower you shields, scan your innards and block your scanners.

Lower your shields by battering it down with weapons, scan your innards when they are right next to you, and I've never seen them block scanners myself.

There are only two examples of EW in any of the SW movies, the 3rd. There is no example of ECCM in any movie.

And what exactly are EW and ECCM?

Please do not confuse scale with effect of technology. It is possable to change the scale of anything but if the tech does not exist then that effect is not available to you.

Huh?

The American allied people on the ground in South East Asia never lost a battle, ever. Our losses in battle were less that 40,000 and only go to 55,000 when acidents and illness are included. The "Official" total from the North Viet Namise them selves, is 2.05 million combat deaths, including the VC. 3 million more wounded and 3 more millions dead from accedent and ilness. I would say that we kicked there rearends but lost because Liboral Democrats did not have the courage to see it threw. Every reputable expert concluded long ago that the war was over 6-9 months after we chose to go all out and win the thing. Chinees intervention just provides a target rich environment just like SW.

Would work, except the Federation is fighting a straight up fight against a much more powerful Imperial Force. Sorry, the feddies are DOOMED.

One of the marks of advanced technology is the reduction in size as things get more advanced. I see the size of Impirial units and think they can not be that good or they could do the job with smaller units.

Maybe they can't do as good a job with smaller units? Besides what the hell does it matter, Impies still out power the Fedearation any day of the week, and the Millenium Falcon (smaller then any ST ship I know of) can go orders of magnitudes faster then any ST ship. Once again I direct you to here when you're done come back and try again.

Finaly, again just because you chose to do one thing, does not mean that you can not do an other. Therefore none of the negitive examples count only the positive and best show what is truely the pinacle of your technology. It is the best that you can do that sets the bar not the average or worst example that make the mean.

ONce again, Huh?

[Darth Wong]

In the origional serries, FTL combat was the norm. In the first season alone, there were to many examples to list. My favorite is between the "Orion Pirates" and The Enterprise that is transporting the delegates to some conference or summit. the two ships exchange head on passes at what is obviously FTL speeds for both units, not slowing to sub-light speeds at all. Other examples are the two battles with Romulans, two battles with Kilngons and one with gorns, all conducted at FTL speeds.

... in the same direction. You're evading the point.

In every shot that shows the Enterprise firing either weapon, phasers or torps, the ship is obviously moving at FTL speeds. The targets are either moving in the same or oposite directions depending on which episode you are watching.

Funny how years of Trekkies trying to provide concrete examples of head-on warp-speed combat have resulted in failure, yet you vaguely refer to such an unnamed incident being common, and simply expect us to take your word for it.

As to maximum speeds, the typical extirior ship shot from every ST show depicts the ships zipping threw space with the back ground stars going by several per second.

Probably a side-effect of the space warp.

Acording to Dr. Gilewski, A little known Astro physisist friend, this equates to between 200-300,000,000 times the speed of light.

Then explain why Janeway doesn't just engage this engine and get home in 2 hours.

In several shows and at least one movie, the Enterprise travels the half span of the Galaxy, a minimum of 45,000 LY, in under one day,

Wrong yet again. In ST5, they did not travel to the centre of the galaxy despite Spock's brother and his deranged rantings. The centre of the galaxy is not a small planet-sized glowing blob; it is an enormous super-energetic phenomenon which makes our entire solar system look like a pinprick.

... just as the Ships in the SW universe do if you belive the books are cannon. That there is no foundation in any of the movies for the distances claimed by people on this board and it is not reallivant to this discusion.

Wrong. They travel from core systems to outer rim systems and back on a regular basis. The entire Geonosis assault force had to come "halfway across the galaxy" to meet Anakin and Padme. Galaxy maps are visible in AOTC.

As it is made cannon by the books. It is my point that there are defects in both settings and that the contradictions must be ignored or they will cancel out any point you want to make. The ST people on other boards are just as picky about the SW defects and can recite them all at will. But they do not understand the ideas either. If the books are good for one side then they must be good for both.

Why? Do you not care that only one side even attempts to maintain inter-book continuity?

There are more than afew referances to speeds as high as Warp-15 and the calculations and charts depict this as many hundreds of millions of times the speed of light. Which defect do you want to ignore. Like I said, you can always find a reason to use less of your capasity than you do, but that still does not mean that you can't. My car will go 142 MPH, I've timed it, but I chose not to do that most of the time that I drive. As to what ever causes Janeway to take 75 years to go the distance what has that gotr to do with the speed of other ships in other places.

"Appeal to ignorance" fallacy: you are basically arguing that you don't know what reason she has for deliberately taking 7 years when she could effortlessly do it in 2 hours, but she must have one and you will assume she has one unless we prove you wrong.

Transporters and S&S. That the scanners can detect indavidual atoms from orbit so that they can be teleported 80,000 Km, is an example of scanner acuracy and sencitivity.

That they can miss entire starships when they are sitting in the Lagrange point of a planet-moon system is an example of severe scanner weakness. You are assuming that they can, in fact, detect individual atoms. But that particular mechanism of transporters makes no sense; in DS9 an individual initiated transport, his ship was destroyed, and O'Brien picked up the matter stream and reconstituted him using DS9's system. If it worked as advertised, this would be impossible. He wouldn't have the necessary structural data!

The fact that "Transporters" are everyday items, used in leu of shuttle craft must be factored into their aceptance and commonality. Also, Replicators that may be closely related to transporters are so wide spread and inexpensive that they can be given away to indavidual refugees without cost says something about the technology of the civilisation.

And yet they cannot replicate certain human cells, despite your claim of atomic scanner resolution at 80,000km.

S&S have at one time or another detected ships 13-15 hours away at maximum warp.

Naturally, since warp-drive creates a spatial distortion far ahead of the originating ship. It advertises itself.

Nothing in any movie depicts anything like this range. In fact they are not able to scan inside the shuttle Tiberious from a few dozen or hundred yards.

Materials which block scanning signals can work wonders.

This ability to see whats inside other ships has been shown many times in the ST universe.

Not to mention the ability to block these scanners with ... materials which block the scanning signals.

That the various people have to land to dispach probes to find things in all three of the first movies says everthing I need to about SW sensors.

And what of the fact that people need to go to the surface in order to survey a planet in Star Trek? Or the fact that the USS Reliant missed an entire starship and its living human crew on the surface of Ceti Alpha Five?

That the fire power of units in the SW settings is in dispute is to ignore the obvious. My other post about turbolaser cannons is a case in point.

It was also shown to be grossly erroneous.

That there could be other mechanisms for the effects shown by the DS-1 Super laser that changes the resulting figures dramaticly is also possable.

Name one of these mechanisms.

An alternate possability that is also not reallivant to this discussion, is that the shot meerly opened a hole to the planets core and then a pluse of high energy nutrons was fired into the heavy metal core that is thought to rest in the center of every high dencity planet. The planets core then supplies all the energy to blow up the planet. It does not matter because it is just an effect of scale not a fundamental effect of technology.

Obviously, you flunked nuclear physics. Little questions such as "fissionable isotope concentration" and "neutron moderation" seem to have escaped your attention. But please, go on and attempt to justify this idea of yours.

As an aside, the ST universe has several diferent and much more compact planet killers, the Genisis device, (I've read the sigle example theory and it does not hold water, once they know it can be done that's half the battle)

The Genesis Device obviously relies on some kind of modified transporter effect (did you see matter rushing toward the planet at high velocity? No, you saw it shimmering and then a planet just appears in the middle), therefore it's useless against shielded ships or planets. Try again.

the Romulan beam that vaporised every living thing on the face of the planet in the Achiology puzzel episode

Name the incident. I'm not going to research your vague claims.

and some missile from the gama quadrant.

Wow, in the face of such concrete examples, I must capitulate

All in all, three quite compact weapons, two that fighter/shuttles could cary. The death star seems quite behind in the technology of distruction race.

Except for that little detail that it happens to pump out more energy in one shot than the Federation has produced in its entire existence, and won't be slowed down by shields.

EW, ECM and ECCM if they had it how come solo did not know that his ship was bugged?

You're seriously arguing that Han Solo represents the nadir of Star Wars EW technology?

How come no scien in any movie shows it's use or effects?

Watch ANH and ROTJ, dumb-ass.

In the ST universe, they can lower you shields, scan your innards and block your scanners.

Oh wow, they can just magically lower anyone's shields and scan any ship despite numerous canon examples where they could not do so? Please, by all means, explain how.

There are only two examples of EW in any of the SW movies, the 3rd. There is no example of ECCM in any movie.

So they have to explain to you that they have any kind of ECCM? How about the fact that they can successfully get a target lock despite severe jamming in ANH?

Please do not confuse scale with effect of technology. It is possable to change the scale of anything but if the tech does not exist then that effect is not available to you.

I notice you assume that scale is effortless. You are wrong. Any engineer knows that scale is not effortless.

One of the marks of advanced technology is the reduction in size as things get more advanced. I see the size of Impirial units and think they can not be that good or they could do the job with smaller units.

A modern nuclear-powered aircraft carrier dwarfs a WW2 aircraft carrier. By your moronic logic, this means the WW2 aircraft carrier is technologically more advanced.

Finaly, again just because you chose to do one thing, does not mean that you can not do an other. Therefore none of the negitive examples count only the positive and best show what is truely the pinacle of your technology. It is the best that you can do that sets the bar not the average or worst example that make the mean.

Again, you ignore the possibility of extenuating circumstances. Again, by your logic the DS9 wormhole proves that Fed ships can routinely do 70,000 light years in seconds.

[Darth Wong]

Stewart, it is quite clear that despite your claims to the contrary, you have never bothered reading my site. My Canon Database alone refutes most of your claims. I suggest that you put your gigantic ego aside and read before you write.

[Straha]

Stewart, it is quite clear that despite your claims to the contrary, you have never bothered reading my site. My Canon Database alone refutes most of your claims. I suggest that you put your gigantic ego aside and read before you write.

I don't think he claimed to read the site before hand. Which makes it better on some levels, and worse on others.

[Mad]

EW, ECM and ECCM if they had it how come solo did not know that his ship was bugged? How come no scien in any movie shows it's use or effects? In the ST universe, they can lower you shields, scan your innards and block your scanners. There are only two examples of EW in any of the SW movies, the 3rd. There is no example of ECCM in any movie.

A New Hope:

Base One: We've picked up a new group of signals. Enemy fighters headed your way.

Luke: I don't see anything, my scope's negative.

Red Leader: Pick up your visual scanning!

(Because of EW, the Rebels were unable to see the TIEs on sensors. The novel and radio drama expand on this, showing that all short and long range sensors were affected, and that sensors would only be useful once the TIE is already "on top of you.")

Also, watch Darth Vader's screen as he goes to kill several Rebel craft. The Y-wings and X-wings on his display bounce around while the actual craft in his viewport is relatively steady. Once again, EW was screwing with the sensors.

Many official sources reference EW and mention how it is used by all combat craft in SW. Its use is implied, just like the use of shields. You don't see TIE pilots exclaim "that X-wing is shielded!" or Han suddenly remark "that Star Destroyer has shields!" because everyone knows that is already the case. The same thing with EW. We see the effects (directly in ANH), and exceptional circumstances are mentioned every now and then. But, for the most part, it's assumed to be in use by both sides.

[The Kernel]

the Romulan beam that vaporised every living thing on the face of the planet in the Achiology puzzel episode

Name the incident. I'm not going to research your vague claims.

He's referring to the Klingon bio-weapon that destroyed the biosystem of the planet in the TNG episode "The Chase".

[Darth Wong]

the Romulan beam that vaporised every living thing on the face of the planet in the Achiology puzzel episode

Name the incident. I'm not going to research your vague claims.

He's referring to the Klingon bio-weapon that destroyed the biosystem of the planet in the TNG episode "The Chase".

Are you sure? That didn't "vapourize" things; it was a bioweapon. And it's also the wrong species. Of course, it's also clear that he sort of makes up his arguments as he goes along, so perhaps this really is what he meant.

[Howedar]

"But how can they be jamming us if they don't know we're... coming?"

Lando Calrissian, ROTJ.

[Darth Wong]

Stewart, it is quite clear that despite your claims to the contrary, you have never bothered reading my site. My Canon Database alone refutes most of your claims. I suggest that you put your gigantic ego aside and read before you write.

I don't think he claimed to read the site before hand. Which makes it better on some levels, and worse on others.

Sorry, I should have pointed out that he claimed to have read my site via E-mail, before he ever signed up here. He said that my arguments were well-researched, but not "thorough".

After seeing his arguments, you can judge for yourself what right he has to claim that anyone else's arguments are not "thorough".

[Master of Ossus]

In the origional serries, FTL combat was the norm. In the first season alone, there were to many examples to list. My favorite is between the "Orion Pirates" and The Enterprise that is transporting the delegates to some conference or summit. the two ships exchange head on passes at what is obviously FTL speeds for both units, not slowing to sub-light speeds at all. Other examples are the two battles with Romulans, two battles with Kilngons and one with gorns, all conducted at FTL speeds.

*sigh* Do you realize how silly this claim is in light of "Elaan of Troyus," in which Sulu called out the range of the target at DECIDEDLY sublight speeds. Tell me, how exactly do you know that the action took place at FTL velocities?

Moreover, why wouldn't the Klingons and Dominion have done this against the stationary DS9? Instead they chose to bear the costs of losing dozens of starships each to the station's defenses, when an FTL strafe would have succeeded and prevented the station from firing a shot. Moreover, why would the UFP have bothered to arm the station if this tactic were possible?

In every shot that shows the Enterprise firing either weapon, phasers or torps, the ship is obviously moving at FTL speeds. The targets are either moving in the same or oposite directions depending on which episode you are watching.

Great. They can engage at FTL speeds. Point to an example of them engaging a target at a RELATIVE FTL speed.

As to maximum speeds, the typical extirior ship shot from every ST show depicts the ships zipping threw space with the back ground stars going by several per second. Acording to Dr. Gilewski, A little known Astro physisist friend, this equates to between 200-300,000,000 times the speed of light. There are no places in this galaxy that they have been that the density of stars could equal any speed less than this.

Except for the fact that those little moving dots are MUCH too small to be stars, and are therefore something else entirely. This can be proven by the fact that they occasionally move BETWEEN the camera and the starship, and are still revealed to be pathetically tiny. If such velocities were possible, why did Janeway take so long to make it home? Why would anyone care about the Bajoran wormhole if it provided such a slight advantage in speed but created a massive strategic bottleneck? If such velocities were possible in ST, why would the Dominion have bothered clearing the minefield AT ALL, if they could have simply warped their fleet to the station in a few days or weeks?

In several shows

Got episode names?

and at least one movie, the Enterprise travels the half span of the Galaxy, a minimum of 45,000 LY, in under one day, just as the Ships in the SW universe do if you belive the books are cannon.

Ah, so you now ignore astrophysical concerns (ie. that the starfield around the Enterprise looked NOTHING like the center of the Galaxy actually would).

That there is no foundation in any of the movies for the distances claimed by people on this board and it is not reallivant to this discusion.

What do you mean? The canonical RotJ novelization revealed that the Alliance fleet moved from Sullust to Endor, a distance of hundreds of lightyears, in mere hours at the most.

As it is made cannon by the books. It is my point that there are defects in both settings and that the contradictions must be ignored or they will cancel out any point you want to make.

WTF are you talking about? There are numerous pieces of dialogue in SW that reveal that they are in fact moving at distances that are significant on a galactic scale VERY quickly. There is at least one confirmed and completely canon example (RotJ Sullust-Endor jump) that shows speeds in the hundreds of thousands of c range. There are no works in the SW universe, EU or not, that contradict these velocities.

The ST people on other boards are just as picky about the SW defects and can recite them all at will. But they do not understand the ideas either. If the books are good for one side then they must be good for both.

Bullshit. Paramount and LucasFilm have different policies as to what is part of both universes. These are impartial and independently created, and they show that the SW books enjoy some official status while only a VERY few ST books have similar status.

There are more than afew referances to speeds as high as Warp-15

Obviously these involve a different warp-scale than the one used in VOY, TNG (except for the "All Good Things..." future timeline) and DS9 scale.

and the calculations and charts depict this as many hundreds of millions of times the speed of light.

Which charts and calculations would those be?

Which defect do you want to ignore. Like I said, you can always find a reason to use less of your capasity than you do, but that still does not mean that you can't.

Fine. What reason did the Klingon/Dominion fleet have for attacking the station at sub-light speeds if they didn't have to? Did they WANT to allow the UFP to kill dozens of their starships? Why didn't Janeway use her allegedly million c ship to travel home in a short amount of time? Why didn't the Dominion simply use their allegedly similar speed to bypass the wormhole minefield?

My car will go 142 MPH, I've timed it, but I chose not to do that most of the time that I drive. As to what ever causes Janeway to take 75 years to go the distance what has that gotr to do with the speed of other ships in other places.

VOY had been equipped with state of the art warp engines, dumbass. It COULD NOT travel as quickly as you claim. The E-D was equipped with similar engines, it never managed more than a few thousand c.

Transporters and S&S. That the scanners can detect indavidual atoms from orbit so that they can be teleported 80,000 Km, is an example of scanner acuracy and sencitivity. The fact that "Transporters" are everyday items, used in leu of shuttle craft must be factored into their aceptance and commonality. Also, Replicators that may be closely related to transporters are so wide spread and inexpensive that they can be given away to indavidual refugees without cost says something about the technology of the civilisation.

ST transporters are stopped by any number of natural phenomenon. Read the fucking site. Moreover, neither of these technologies show much of anything about their MILITARY capabilities.

S&S have at one time or another detected ships 13-15 hours away at maximum warp.

They've missed countless other starships at MUCH smaller ranges. Moreover, if this claim were true and your millions of times the speed of light velocities were accurate, why would they even care if someone was approaching them at such a distance? That starship would not arrive for hours, and in a galaxy that has even a smattering of starships there must be tens of thousands, and possibly millions, of starships inside their sensor range. How can they possibly be bothered to pick out an individual ship at such distances?

Nothing in any movie depicts anything like this range. In fact they are not able to scan inside the shuttle Tiberious from a few dozen or hundred yards. This ability to see whats inside other ships has been shown many times in the ST universe. That the various people have to land to dispach probes to find things in all three of the first movies says everthing I need to about SW sensors.

Let me get this straight: you claim that low-end examples of technology are to be ignored because there are always excuses for not using the best technology (a laughable assertion in and of itself). Now you ignore the high-end SW technology demonstrated by the fact that the Rebels knew of the Imperial approach to Hoth before VADER knew the fleet had moved out of lightspeed, that Kenobi was able to scan a planet TENS OF THOUSANDS of light years away EASILY and determine that the star and planet were still there? You have to be joking.

That the fire power of units in the SW settings is in dispute is to ignore the obvious. My other post about turbolaser cannons is a case in point. That there could be other mechanisms for the effects shown by the DS-1 Super laser that changes the resulting figures dramaticly is also possable. An alternate possability that is also not reallivant to this discussion, is that the shot meerly opened a hole to the planets core and then a pluse of high energy nutrons was fired into the heavy metal core that is thought to rest in the center of every high dencity planet. The planets core then supplies all the energy to blow up the planet.

God you're a dumbass. Do you realize that fissionable materials are EXTREMELY unusual in a planet, and that in their natural states within a planet there is NO WAY to maintain a reaction like that?

It does not matter because it is just an effect of scale not a fundamental effect of technology.

You are obviously a fucking stupid troll. It DOES matter, because the DS shows that the level of technology in SW is VASTLY greater than the technology of anything in the UFP.

As an aside, the ST universe has several diferent and much more compact planet killers, the Genisis device, (I've read the sigle example theory and it does not hold water, once they know it can be done that's half the battle) the Romulan beam that vaporised every living thing on the face of the planet in the Achiology puzzel episode and some missile from the gama quadrant. All in all, three quite compact weapons, two that fighter/shuttles could cary. The death star seems quite behind in the technology of distruction race.

*sigh* The Sun Crusher can cause a sun to go supernova. It fits in a starfighter. The DS was designed to destroy a shielded and heavily defended world that none of the ST superweapons could hit.

EW, ECM and ECCM if they had it how come solo did not know that his ship was bugged?

Do you know how frickin' hard it is to detect a properly inserted bug, dumbass? What the fuck does this have to do with EW?

How come no scien in any movie shows it's use or effects?

Liar.

"There's too much interference."

"Pick up your visual scanning."


"How can they be jamming us if they don't know...?"


"Jam their comlinks, center switch."

In the ST universe, they can lower you shields,

Wow. I love your specific references. WHO can "lower your shields," how can they do this? What episode was this in?

scan your innards and block your scanners.

Just as they do in SW. Your ignorance of the SW films is spectacular, given that you claim to have written computer programs designed to model their differences.

There are only two examples of EW in any of the SW movies, the 3rd. There is no example of ECCM in any movie.

Who gives a fuck? We've only seen a few frickin' hours of the universe.

BTW, you claimed earlier that there were NO examples of EW in any of the SW movies. Which is it?

Please do not confuse scale with effect of technology. It is possable to change the scale of anything but if the tech does not exist then that effect is not available to you.

Bullshit. Technology is not infinitely scalable, dumbass. Here's a thought experiment: you have a solid cube made of metal. Now, double all of its dimensions. How does its mass relate to the original cube? How does its cross-section compare?

The American allied people on the ground in South East Asia never lost a battle, ever. Our losses in battle were less that 40,000 and only go to 55,000 when acidents and illness are included. The "Official" total from the North Viet Namise them selves, is 2.05 million combat deaths, including the VC. 3 million more wounded and 3 more millions dead from accedent and ilness. I would say that we kicked there rearends but lost because Liboral Democrats did not have the courage to see it threw. Every reputable expert concluded long ago that the war was over 6-9 months after we chose to go all out and win the thing. Chinees intervention just provides a target rich environment just like SW.

Great. Okay. If this thing about technology levels is accurate, how could the Romans have EVER lost to the Goths? How could the Chinese have been repeatedly overrun by the Mongols?

Moreover, do you honestly think that Japan today could defeat the USSR of 1980? Do you honestly believe that a man with an M16 could defeat a Roman legion?

Moreover, this has nothing to do with making your case since the Star Wars universe displays much better technology for combat than any of the Alpha Quadrant powers.

One of the marks of advanced technology is the reduction in size as things get more advanced. I see the size of Impirial units and think they can not be that good or they could do the job with smaller units.

Nice self-contradiction, dumbass. Mr. "There are lots of reasons you wouldn't use the best of your technology" now claims that SW technology is poor because their starships are fairly large. Brilliant.

Finaly, again just because you chose to do one thing, does not mean that you can not do an other. Therefore none of the negitive examples count only the positive and best show what is truely the pinacle of your technology.

God you're a fucktard. Do you realize that this philosophy makes it impossible to evaluate technologies? I can just say something to the effect of "They could put the firepower of the DS in the hands of a single stormtrooper." When you point out that they can't do that, I just say that it's a negative example and therefore you're wrong. I can't believe anyone would seriously advocate using such bullshit. There's a difference between using the best lower-limit and claiming that negative examples don't matter for anything.

It is the best that you can do that sets the bar not the average or worst example that make the mean.

By your reasoning, the fact that the US put a man on the moon in the 1960's means that the US should be able to do the same thing right now. The fact that swords built during the Rennaisance were VERY light and well balanced should mean that we can do the same thing, now, even though the best swords today are almost 20% heavier and have weaker balance. Technology and expertise CAN and DOES get lost. One-time fluke events don't count for much, even if the performance in it is indisputable.

Moreover, let's say that I claimed to be a psychic and said that I had displayed telepathic and telekinetic powers in the past. When you came to do tests on me and found I had no telepathic or telekinetic powers, would you believe me when I stated that I had demonstrated these abilities in the past and that the tests counted for shit? Of course not.

[SirNitram]

This guy's arguments makes me think the Empire's reply to anything from Trek would be a Missile Boat with Quantum Crystalline Armour, Suncrusher missiles, Ai-Tiing Monk teleportation, and Anakin Solo in the pilot's seat. In other words, more masturbation than a KJA press release.

[The Kernel]

Are you sure? That didn't "vapourize" things; it was a bioweapon. And it's also the wrong species. Of course, it's also clear that he sort of makes up his arguments as he goes along, so perhaps this really is what he meant.

I'm sure; it's the "archeological puzzle" episode. The fact that he didn't get the species right and that it was a bio-weapon instead of a vaporization are just examples of the extreme sloppiness of his particular style of debate.

[Durandal]

Ah, but is it C, or is it, in fact, C++? I shall leave you to wrestle with that question.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't iostream a C++ library file?

I think you're right. C uses stdio.h, if I'm not mistaken. Oh well.

[Kamakazie Sith]

Name the incident. I'm not going to research your vague claims.

He's referring to the Klingon bio-weapon that destroyed the biosystem of the planet in the TNG episode "The Chase".

Are you sure? That didn't "vapourize" things; it was a bioweapon. And it's also the wrong species. Of course, it's also clear that he sort of makes up his arguments as he goes along, so perhaps this really is what he meant.

There has never been such an episode where Romulans vaporized every living thing on a planet.

Maybe he is thinking about TDIC, I wouldn't put it past him. God, I don't think I can handle another TDIC discussion.

[Sarevok]

Ah, but is it C, or is it, in fact, C++? I shall leave you to wrestle with that question.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't iostream a C++ library file?

I think you're right. C uses stdio.h, if I'm not mistaken. Oh well.

Indeed. C uses stdio, and conio while C++ has the iostream library. C++ can also stdio but its rarely done since iostream is more flexible.

[Patrick Degan]

Who is this imbecile?

[KhyronTheBackstabber]

As to maximum speeds, the typical extirior ship shot from every ST show depicts the ships zipping threw space with the back ground stars going by several per second. Acording to Dr. Gilewski, A little known Astro physisist friend, this equates to between 200-300,000,000 times the speed of light.

If you want to go by that, then the fact that when Wars ships make the jump to hyper space, the stars become strait lines, so that must mean they are moving much faster then Trek.

[harbringer]

Why do people always say stars are zipping past in trek... I mean it could be dust particles hitting the warp field and being annihilated. Sort of reminds me of the planet express that "moves the universe around the ship", I mean you can claim anything about FTL travel becuase no one can prove anything. So why does it have to be stars?????????????.

[D.Turtle]

Just a little note:

SW has transporters.

In the Essential Guide of Weapons and Technologies, there is an entry of a magical hoop or something similar (don't have the EGWT with me to check what the real name is) that a person uses as a magical trick in his performances (He goes through the hoop/ring and appears somewhere else).

Maybe transporters are not used on living beings because of ethical or similar reasons (I for one would not choose to use a transporter because I have serious qualms about being ripped to bits and being reconstructed somewhere else).

Maybe it has been outlawed by the government, because of safety reasons.

WE do not know. But we DO know that transporters exist in SW.

And don't even think of saying that ST is more advanced because they use transporters with living beings (or have refined them so they are safe to use). There have been numerous times where a transporter has been anything except safe (in ST).

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

My car will go 142 MPH, I've timed it, but I chose not to do that most of the time that I drive. As to what ever causes Janeway to take 75 years to go the distance what has that gotr to do with the speed of other ships in other places.

"Even at MAXIMUM WARP it will take us SEVENTY-FIVE YEARS to get home."

[Tribun]

My car will go 142 MPH, I've timed it, but I chose not to do that most of the time that I drive. As to what ever causes Janeway to take 75 years to go the distance what has that gotr to do with the speed of other ships in other places.

"Even at MAXIMUM WARP it will take us SEVENTY-FIVE YEARS to get home."

Good answer, GAT!
But could you please remove that red thing from your head? Christmas is long over......