US Army vs Aus/NZ Army (split from Stewart at SDI)

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The Kernel
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Post by The Kernel »

Stuart Mackey wrote: :roll: Well what the fucking evidence do you want? hmm? want me to have NZ to delcare war on the US? or get you over there to see for yourself?
Jesus mate, these are the observations of people under fire.. what do you want a blow by blow discription from the people in question? well short of breaking into defence force property to get the reports :roll: , that aint going to happen.
Is it that hard to drag up a report on the quality of US training methods? I'm sure the DoD performs these kind of tests all the time, not to mention you could simply bring up battle kill statistics for operations like Afghanistan. At least this would be some evidence.
There are some times when you have to accept that not everything can be broken down into a nice set of facts and figures to prove or disprove something. I repeated the opinions of serving people who do not think that the US has the best trained army in the world, thats all.
Can I prove they said it? no, can you prove the US has the best trained army in the world? no. The US army is not above critisism, and there are plenty of soldiers in other armies who think so. This is not a winnable debate, just a matter of opinion, beleive it or not thats allowed here to.
This is funny, please show me where I made the statement that the United States has the best trained military in the world. Can't find it? Made that is because I never said it dumbass. Nor did I say that the US military is above criticism.

The only thing you have said that I take exception to is wild statements about US training without any supporting evidence (and believe it or not, it is possible to find such evidence without resorting to appeals to authority).
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Post by jegs2 »

A good way to test who would be victorious would be to place equal types of units (mechanized infantry battalions, light infantry battalions, etc.) opposing each other in a major CTC (with the proper train-up). The NTC at Fort Irwin would be a good place to run that show. The OCs there have no bias -- in fact, they tend to be harder on the US (rotational) units, rather than the Kraznovian OPFOR. As a side-note, the old Kraznovian piece is now out the window at the NTC, as the threat is being shaped more like the Iraqi insurgency (ditto for the JRTC).
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Post by Crown »

The Kernel wrote:
Crown wrote: Well the US Army's own standards lable Australian regular infantry as 'special forces', you guys have had the snot beaten out of you for the past few years in training simulations (operation Croc '03, Kangaroo '02) even when you had the full use of survelliance satellites.

I am sorry. The best equipt Army in the world is the US Army hands down, bar none, and by a wide margin ... but best trained? *snort*
Could you provide some links? I've found plenty of info on the nature of the operation, but I can't seem to find anything on the results.
I can quote the article in the Army magazine when my mate gets back from where-ever-the-hell-he-is-right-now (he is trying out as a Tiger pilot at the moment) if you are willing to wait.

By no means am I saying that the US Army vs the Australian Army would lead to an Australian victory, nor am I saying that the US Army is shit, so please don't interpret it that way. It's just that we are better :P
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Post by Crown »

Actually jegs did you take part in any of the operations down under? You would have the details more readily than me.
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Post by The Kernel »

Crown wrote: I can quote the article in the Army magazine when my mate gets back from where-ever-the-hell-he-is-right-now (he is trying out as a Tiger pilot at the moment) if you are willing to wait.

By no means am I saying that the US Army vs the Australian Army would lead to an Australian victory, nor am I saying that the US Army is shit, so please don't interpret it that way. It's just that we are better :P
I'm in no hurry and I'm actually interested in finding out the results. Take your time.
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Post by Stuart Mackey »

The Kernel wrote: Is it that hard to drag up a report on the quality of US training methods? I'm sure the DoD performs these kind of tests all the time, not to mention you could simply bring up battle kill statistics for operations like Afghanistan. At least this would be some evidence.
As it happens it is, one of those things I have been looking for for a couple of years...unfortunatly what most of these guys do is not reported in the media, not a lot I can do about that. All I can go on is what other people say.
There are some times when you have to accept that not everything can be broken down into a nice set of facts and figures to prove or disprove something. I repeated the opinions of serving people who do not think that the US has the best trained army in the world, thats all.
Can I prove they said it? no, can you prove the US has the best trained army in the world? no. The US army is not above critisism, and there are plenty of soldiers in other armies who think so. This is not a winnable debate, just a matter of opinion, beleive it or not thats allowed here to.
This is funny, please show me where I made the statement that the United States has the best trained military in the world. Can't find it? Made that is because I never said it dumbass. Nor did I say that the US military is above criticism. [/quote]

I never said that you did :roll: everything I have said is in refereance to SDI man.
The only thing you have said that I take exception to is wild statements about US training without any supporting evidence (and believe it or not, it is possible to find such evidence without resorting to appeals to authority).
My grandfather knew Lord Lovat, of the RM Commando's, and you know what, I cant back that up..you going to say I am lying about that? cause thats in effect what you are accusing me of, lying.
Why are you unable to simply accept that at face value..that that is the opinion of serving oficers and NCO's based on their experiences of the US army? cause thats all it is, I never pretended it it was anything more.
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Post by PackMule »

Can't speak for Aussies, but I know that whenever NZ forces are overseas, they are highly regarded by other armed forces both for their "professionalism" (if such a word could be used) and their high levels of training.

Certainly NZ doesn't have the money to equip our Armed Forces with the latest state of the art equipment (have a tax base of only 4 million people does put limits on spending), but our training is excellent.

Does anyone know the kill ratios from Vietnam? I remember something from history class about NZ having a low kill-vs-rounds fired ratio while the American's would empty entire clips into the forest trying to kill something.

I googled but couldn't find anything solid.
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Post by The Kernel »

Stuart Mackey wrote: As it happens it is, one of those things I have been looking for for a couple of years...unfortunatly what most of these guys do is not reported in the media, not a lot I can do about that. All I can go on is what other people say.
You're welcome to voice your opinion, but don't expect it to hold up as well as firm evidence.
I never said that you did :roll: everything I have said is in refereance to SDI man.
You said:
Can I prove they said it? no, can you prove the US has the best trained army in the world? no. The US army is not above critisism, and there are plenty of soldiers in other armies who think so. This is not a winnable debate, just a matter of opinion, beleive it or not thats allowed here to.
Emphasis mine. You seem to be asking me to prove an assertion I did not make.
My grandfather knew Lord Lovat, of the RM Commando's, and you know what, I cant back that up..you going to say I am lying about that? cause thats in effect what you are accusing me of, lying.
Why are you unable to simply accept that at face value..that that is the opinion of serving oficers and NCO's based on their experiences of the US army? cause thats all it is, I never pretended it it was anything more.
This isn't about me trusting your credibility. There is a reason we don't allow the word of supposed experts without proof, and I'm sure you understand why. Like I said, you're welcome to voice such testimony, but don't try to draw any sort of conclusions from it and expect me to let you get away with it.
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Post by Kazuaki Shimazaki »

The Kernel wrote:This should really be split if we want to continue this, but I should think that a study performed by an independent organization would be pretty strong evidence. This means that any comments by the GOP about the weakness of Clinton's military without any hard numbers or study is out, as is anything about US military equipment (since the assertion was training, although I imagine that this helps your side more than mine).
Let's get one quickie right. I'm on no side, since I'm not from the US, the UK, NZ, Aus ... etc, and I don't have a lot of national pride or anything.

But since 'training level' is not something as quantifiable as equipment (especially since each nation has a somewhat different philosophy,) I'm interested in what kind of evidence you would need before you think a claim of a poorly trained US military is justified.
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Post by jegs2 »

Crown wrote:Actually jegs did you take part in any of the operations down under? You would have the details more readily than me.
Had an Autralian officer as an instructor at Fort Huachuca, but have unfortunately been unable to visit Austrailia. The Army tends rather to send us places like Korea, Bosnia and Iraq...
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Post by Meest »

Not sure if this counts, but in the William Tell (air to air combat competitions) non-americans regularly beat american top gun pilots.
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Post by Trytostaydead »

In regards though to comparative factors..

Not everyone is trained equally, nor does everyone have the same motivation factors. Some become cooks, mechanics, and desk jockeys with an m16. Some become SEALs and play with cool toys. The US, I'm not sure about the other countries, has a problem with recruitment into military service. There are always articles and activitists that complain about the demographic makeup of the military. And college trained boys or those looking to get more than a high school education usually just see the military as a stint to get money.. but they aren't warriors.

And in terms of aces and top marksmen.. I think it varies with the ages too. Will the US ever get another Audie Murphy? Or a younger version of Chuck Yeager to put in a modern airplane? Who knows..
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Post by Howedar »

Meest wrote:Not sure if this counts, but in the William Tell (air to air combat competitions) non-americans regularly beat american top gun pilots.
What lovely evidence you've provided.
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Post by Meest »

Trying to find the articles, I know that overall the canadian team won once in the 2000's for sure, with wins in separate categories through out the years but not overall team wins, but top shooter/top gun individual awards. Thing is this is they get to use their best planes, so CF-18's vs F-15s etc. which is a pretty good accomplishment.

Only one I can find now,

-William Tell 94 Scoreboard -
TOP OVERALL TEAM: 119th FG, North Dakota ANG, 41,953 points.
1st runner up: 3rd Wing/Bagotville, Team Canada, 40.993 points.

TOP ELEMENT: Team Canada,12,219 points.
1st runner up: 119th FG, North Dakota ANG, 12,037 points.

TOP GUN : Capt.J.Browne, 52nd FW, 6,346 points.
1st runner up: Capt.F.Garceau, team Canada, 6,292 points.

TOP SHOOTER: Capt.M.Charpentier, Team Canada, 1,088 points.
1st runner up: Capt.S.Ruffin: 18th Wing, 1,027 points.
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Post by The Kernel »

I'm afraid that this type of thing doesn't help much in establishing a mean for pilot training. A handful of crack pilots doesn't count for much more than bragging rights.
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Post by Meest »

http://www.af.mil/news/airman/0297/will.htm

1996 results if you scroll down
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Post by Meest »

The William Tell '96 article in the February '97 issue suffers from a bad case of sour grapes. The Canadian forces all but swept the meet, yet your article contains no photos of the Canadians or their aircraft. The article mentions the Canadians only in the tally of winners (where it counts). You dwell at length on the new "come as you are" format for William Tell as if that excuses our performance. Canada has real-world commitments, too. Their win demonstrates they were better prepared for the "real thing." William Tell is a joint weapons competition, not a showcase for U.S. Air Force public relations. Canada is one of our best allies; we should celebrate their victory and resolve to kick their butts next time!

Lt. Col. John McMurray
Sheppard AFB, Texas
Not sure how much weight that holds, but in general always thought Canadian pilots(majority of them not just the top gun schools) were considered to be highly trained.

Though other than the JTF2 most Canadian publications mention the lack of army training for Canadian army troops.
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Post by Ender »

As I am a totally unbiased source for the complete and total superiority of the US armed forces in every regard, I'm just gonna say this:

Over the past 10-15 years the training budget has been slashed again and again and again, even by suppossedly "pro military" administrations like Bush. So the assessment that by and large most of the grunts are idiots and poorly trained is substaintaited.
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Post by PackMule »

Ender wrote:As I am a totally unbiased source for the complete and total superiority of the US armed forces in every regard, I'm just gonna say this:

Over the past 10-15 years the training budget has been slashed again and again and again, even by suppossedly "pro military" administrations like Bush. So the assessment that by and large most of the grunts are idiots and poorly trained is substaintaited.
Good point. I guess that to really compair the forces, we need a strain of comparision, such as types of training techniques. Unfortunatly I am rather unknowledgeable about most things of a military nature. Within the Armed Forces are there recognized methods, such as you might find in secondary school education?

Likewise we must also consider the different roles of the Armed Forces. The US has many varying units in what is essentially a large standing Army for purposes foriegn and domestic, whereas the NZ Armed Forces have small units used primarily for overseas Peace-Keeping, patrolling the 200 mile economic zone around NZ, and search and rescue operations.

What can we use to compair the average level of training?
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Post by CRUCIBLE »

Well, not an evidence but something i took part in (I am from Germany so I am biased too :wink: )

3 Years ago we were on trainig camp in Augsburg (Southern Germany). There is quite some place to play, Mortar ranges up to 10km, MARS and LARS Ranges up to 15km and of course the never ending obstacle courses scattered throughout the training areas.

Besides that we have "Bonnstadt" there. Its an Urban Combat Training facility, in short, its a little city indeed.

In the 4 weeks we trained there we also visited Boonstadt to train there, as were US troops and British troops.
The Officers in Command agreed on a little trial. With every available unit they have to seize Bonnstadt against an enemy composed of British, American and German infantrists.

This "Enemy" team stayed together over the whole course and each unit took turns in seizing the city.

Measurements were, time to complete the mission and own casualities.
Daytime conditions, clear weather, midsummer, Infantry and Armored Vehicles only.

-Germany: 27min, 17% casualities. Its have to be said that the tactic was indeed the best, please dont count my bias in here. i see it from a proffesional view. But the German units trained there allready for 3 weeks and visited it before, so there was indeed a big factor working for them.

-British: 39min, 29% casualities. Good tactic, but wasnt realy punshed through. Bad positioning of sniper teams (I saw far better work) and too big sector groups working on single! houses.

-US: 1hour 57min, 68% casualities. What can i say, they moved in last and saw the performance of the other units. They broke the rules of Urban combat. Never, NEVER send in Tanks (M1A2s) into uncontroled streets! Never try to clear several houses at the same time...
Never walk on the fucking street and bet that all enemies are afraid of the big tank rolling alongside you.
Too many mistakes and idiot in command (i had the pleasure to talk to him, still wondering how he made it to Colonel...).

On Equipment:
All vehicles and infantry was equipped with Laser attachments to the Weapons and receptors to know when hit (Dunno how the system is called in the US, here its FLAR), but i guess you know what i mean.

The Enemy unit consisted of 60 Infantrists (20 of each Nation). Non Specs equipped with Assault Rifles and 2Hand Grenades.

5 Infantrists were equipped with AT Rocket Launchers and 5 with MGs.
This made 5 units to 10 men + 3 Sniper teams and 4 Officers in Command.
2 Marder´s and 2 Fuchs´.

US Infantry moved in with 120 men with standard equip. 2 Sinper teams.
And a grand total of 18! Armored Vehicles (10 IFVs and 6 Tanks)

British Infantry moved in with 80 men with standard equip and 3 Sinper teams. 6 IFVs.

German Infantry moved in with 80 men with standard equip and 2 Sniper teams and 4 Marder´s and 2 Fuchs´.


I dont want to dis the US Army, as i made friends there. BUT the overall tactical level is not very high and they are usually too overconfident based on their equipment (which is good. Equip i mean).
I see the biggest problem with the Military doctrine. The structure of orders is just too stiff.
Mission goal is to capture D, so you go over A then to B, wait 5 min then go to C. Then clear D and take it. Typical example, every step is allready printed.

The British and German Military doctrine is a bit more, well, openminded. Mission goal is to take D. An do as you wish as long as you take D.
Point is the Soldiers on the lower levels are allowed flexibility.


Btw, i am now 5 years in the German Army. I am trained for Deep Recon and visited Sniper School. I am serving in an Airborne division and i did my tour of duty in other countries. Btw. I was in the Enemy team. It was funny :lol: .

I dont want to make any point here, as i said the Man in Charge of the US troops was an idiot. But its an example how many factors can ruin any soldiers life.

Btw, you cant really compare Soldiers from different countries by their training. Its just not completely satisfactory.
You can only compare them by acual combat examples, and that is difficult at best to bring different Nations with comparable units into the same tactical battle.
The above example doesnt really count as it wasnt a real fight for life, but just a traing session.

P.S. NZ troops are indeed very good trained!
Last edited by CRUCIBLE on 2004-02-02 08:22pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by Howedar »

One wonders if that performance was representative of the three nations. When you're making judgements based on single samples, lots of funny things can happen.
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Post by CRUCIBLE »

Howedar wrote:One wonders if that performance was representative of the three nations. When you're making judgements based on single samples, lots of funny things can happen.
It wasnt representative and was never meant to be. 8)

But with the funny thing that can happen, you are absulutly (gah sp.) right :D
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Re: US Army vs Aus/NZ Army (split from Stewart at SDI)

Post by Aaron »

Stuart Mackey wrote:
Stewart from SDI wrote:I like your analisis of ground combat capabilities and find that it meshes well with WW-II tactics and technology, but has little to do with post RVN combat.

The current state of the art is such that restricting non optical sensors would blind our army by maby one third. EW, ECM and other sensors would make combat between the US Army and the Imperial Army as depicted a wholesale slaughter. No other army on the planet is as well equiped and trained as we are. The British were/are very poorly equiped and trained in compairison. (they just can't afford it!)
*Snort, snigger*
I love this..Every Brit/Aussie/NZ officer or NCO I have ever met active or retired from a number of wars, have all uniformly aid that the US army is very well equipped and badly trained..could it be that Steward has started
to beleive the propaganda and not what actual happens?

As a former member of the Canadian Army I believe I can provide a second opinion here. The average American soldier is poorly trained in comparison to your average British/Aus/NZ or Canadian soldier. While the Americans have advanced significatly with their technology their training has lagged behind the rest of NATO. Most NATO troops are cross-trained on up to three different jobs. But the Americans train their soldiers to do one thing only. I've met Americans that are trained infantrymen that have no idea how to operate a radio.That is why we kick their buts on practically every joint exercise.
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Re: US Army vs Aus/NZ Army (split from Stewart at SDI)

Post by CRUCIBLE »

Cpl Kendall wrote:
Stuart Mackey wrote:
Stewart from SDI wrote:I like your analisis of ground combat capabilities and find that it meshes well with WW-II tactics and technology, but has little to do with post RVN combat.

The current state of the art is such that restricting non optical sensors would blind our army by maby one third. EW, ECM and other sensors would make combat between the US Army and the Imperial Army as depicted a wholesale slaughter. No other army on the planet is as well equiped and trained as we are. The British were/are very poorly equiped and trained in compairison. (they just can't afford it!)
*Snort, snigger*
I love this..Every Brit/Aussie/NZ officer or NCO I have ever met active or retired from a number of wars, have all uniformly aid that the US army is very well equipped and badly trained..could it be that Steward has started
to beleive the propaganda and not what actual happens?

As a former member of the Canadian Army I believe I can provide a second opinion here. The average American soldier is poorly trained in comparison to your average British/Aus/NZ or Canadian soldier. While the Americans have advanced significatly with their technology their training has lagged behind the rest of NATO. Most NATO troops are cross-trained on up to three different jobs. But the Americans train their soldiers to do one thing only. I've met Americans that are trained infantrymen that have no idea how to operate a radio.That is why we kick their buts on practically every joint exercise.
Gee, how could i forget! Yup the cross-training is one of the big mistakes in the US Military doctrine, or better the lack of it. Hell i saw MGs ruled out because the MG gunner dropped in some traing sessions we did with the US Army. No one took the MG up, because no one else was trained in its fucking use.
If the cross-training isnt even visible on the weapon scale, then there is a problem.
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Post by Trytostaydead »

..well, I think when it comes down to it.. we'll kick your ass in any war :D

hahaha, j/p.. unless you're french.. we'll kick your ass.
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