Schroder was a 'prisoner' of Chirac

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2004-02-02 11:41pm

Link

Weird shit...

Nathan F · Post by **Nathan F** » 2004-02-02 11:47pm

Wonder if this has anything to do with the latest findings about Saddam's connections with the French and the Germans wanting to save their hides...

Shaidar Haran · Post by **Shaidar Haran** » 2004-02-03 01:06am

Nathan F wrote:Wonder if this has anything to do with the latest findings about Saddam's connections with the French and the Germans wanting to save their hides...

Perhaps. More likely they simply don't want to be dragged along by the French or become the EU's Germany Province. It seems like it's more brought on by EU politicas since that's most frequently sited.

Though I wouldn't blame them for distancing themselves from the French. Germany's oppisition to the war seemed to be really based on principle after all.

Nathan F · Post by **Nathan F** » 2004-02-03 01:08am

Shaidar Haran wrote:[Perhaps. More likely they simply don't want to be dragged along by the French or become the EU's Germany Province. It seems like it's more brought on by EU politicas since that's most frequently sited.

Though I wouldn't blame them for distancing themselves from the French. Germany's oppisition to the war seemed to be really based on principle after all.

Quite possible, really.

Could some of the German members of the board tell me how strong nationalistic undertones still are in Germany?

Shaidar Haran · Post by **Shaidar Haran** » 2004-02-03 01:22am

Nathan F wrote:
Shaidar Haran wrote:[Perhaps. More likely they simply don't want to be dragged along by the French or become the EU's Germany Province. It seems like it's more brought on by EU politicas since that's most frequently sited.

Though I wouldn't blame them for distancing themselves from the French. Germany's oppisition to the war seemed to be really based on principle after all.
Quite possible, really.

Could some of the German members of the board tell me how strong nationalistic undertones still are in Germany?

I don't know that it would necessarily take a major nationalistic streak. Just a serious desire not to get swallowed up in an overly powerful superstate. France's vision seems to be to be for an EU superstate that they run.

KrauserKrauser · Post by **KrauserKrauser** » 2004-02-03 02:34am

Because France = teh devil

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2004-02-03 02:53am

Shaidar Haran wrote:
I don't know that it would necessarily take a major nationalistic streak. Just a serious desire not to get swallowed up in an overly powerful superstate. France's vision seems to be to be for an EU superstate that they run.

Frances vision is of a strong integrated Europe which is still divided up into nation states (where their alliance of states has control), Germanys policy has been for a very integrated Europe where EU democracy is enforced thus diminishing the power of the nation state.

This is why France and Germany work together, they are both interested in strengthening the EU even though their end games are different, Britain is being included in the "motor" because while we don't agree with either policy we do agree on a lot of issues (like Germany we won't to get rid of CAP, like France we won't a strong integrated European army and so on) with a bit of luck we may be able to become the decider of the “motor" and thus place ourselves at the head of the EU (as we have already done with regard to the ESDP).

Thinkmarble · Post by **Thinkmarble** » 2004-02-03 03:17am

Nathan F wrote: Quite possible, really.
Could some of the German members of the board tell me how strong nationalistic undertones still are in Germany?

Difficult to evaluate.

In comparison with the USA I would say next to nonexistence.
Other will have a different opinion

Dargos · Post by **Dargos** » 2004-02-03 04:01am

[quote="Nathan F
Quite possible, really.

Could some of the German members of the board tell me how strong nationalistic undertones still are in Germany?[/quote]

I’m not German, but I have lived among them for over 10 years now. German nationalism is NOTHING compared to what the US has. From what I have observed of the general population of Germany, I consider them sheep. They may "Baaa" a bit, but they will, in general, just follow the Sheppard in whichever direction he takes them.

The major opposition to the war in Germany is due to the belief that there was/is absolutely NO justification for it.

On the flip side, the German government supported the US military in all ways it would have if they supported the war. Who do you think been providing security to the US military installations since not too long after 9/11? Shit, the Bundesweir (I know...it sounds like a Beer label doesn't it?) Has been providing security to some really remote radio sites that I go to, I hate it for them poor buggers

If you want to know my opinion, the Army is in a bad shape when they can't even provide soldiers for their own installation security

Dahak · Post by **Dahak** » 2004-02-03 06:34am

Nathan F wrote:Quite possible, really.

Could some of the German members of the board tell me how strong nationalistic undertones still are in Germany?

They are virtually non-existent.
If you raise the german flag in your garden, you're most likely considered a right-wing nut.
Being proud of Germany is also extremely bad.
I think that's why Germany is so feverishly for the European Union, as it would allow us to leave the "German" part behind, and once again be proud of something.

As for the relationship with France: It's an extremely strong one. Granted, it's still a pipe dream, but a not so small percentage is thinking about a Franco-German state, especially when the EU shouldn't move where we want it to...

Antares · Post by **Antares** » 2004-02-03 07:12am

I would also say, its close to non-existance.

Everyone who is in charge of something showing some kind of patriotism, nationalistic thinking, antisemitism is blamed like hell and often removed from his/her position.

Dahak already mentioned the main points. If you cannot express your pride of being a german, how should nationalism arise anyway.

The hole world keeps an eye on such things in germany and even the slightest sign of nationalism or other right-oriented behaviour is instantly blamed and connected with the question:
"Is germany getting a threat to the world again?"

There are still some issues about the "Republikaner" to forbid this political party even if this party has no real power in any state in germany. I am living in bavaria, one of the most (moderate) right-oriented states of germany (the CSU reached over 60% in the last election and thus got absolute majority) but still this kind of "right-oriented" is ! nothing ! in comparison to other right-oriented parties of other nations.

Today if you say "Ich mag Ausländer nicht" (i dont like foreigners) your world view is questioned in such a way, that friends suddenly dont want to talk to you anymore.

Concerning the relationship between france and germany i just can say, that i am glad it is like it is at the moment. Former germany and france fought several wars in which small region called "Elsas-Lothringen" switched again and again from one side to another.

In every mayor war during the last 200 years france was fighting germany (and its predecessors) thus france would have EVERY reason to not have such good relationships between your two nations.
Still we have it and this means the french people can accept us even if we were the main thread throughout history.

France is one of our direct neighbours and the relationship to such countries cannot be good enough.

If today france and germany were forming one state, the only thing i would worry about is my bad french skills and that i have to refresh my knowledge which i got from 5 years in school.

HemlockGrey · Post by **HemlockGrey** » 2004-02-03 07:50am

Granted, it's still a pipe dream, but a not so small percentage is thinking about a Franco-German state,

That would be ironic as hell.

Post by **Colonel Olrik** » 2004-02-03 08:51am

Meh, nationalism is vastly overrated. It is right on top together with religion as the major cause of misery and war. We don't need it over here.

Germans are of the most pro-EU people you can get. In my three weeks here in Munich, I've had many talks about Europe from their point of view, something I wasn't used to, and the general opinion I hear is that giving out money to poorer states is very well worth it, and further political union very welcome. Unlike in France, everybody will speak english with a smile and the city is full of people from outside the E.U (I've met colombians, argentinians, croatians, etc) without signs of discontent.

Oh yeah, and the chicks are great. Blonds everywhere and that.

Thinkmarble · Post by **Thinkmarble** » 2004-02-03 08:54am

I think you are going overboard Antares.
It depends in which kind of enviroment you are moving.
There is a "dumpfer" nationalism alive and well, there are "Nationalbefreite Zonen" and there are also people who are kinda touchy and overreact in this regard ( eg. Leah Rosh -> Mahnmal and Degussa, try to explain that to an foreigner).

Oberleutnant · Post by **Oberleutnant** » 2004-02-03 08:56am

Antares wrote:There are still some issues about the "Republikaner" to forbid this political party even if this party has no real power in any state in germany. I am living in bavaria, one of the most (moderate) right-oriented states of germany (the CSU reached over 60% in the last election and thus got absolute majority) but still this kind of "right-oriented" is ! nothing ! in comparison to other right-oriented parties of other nations.

Which German region is considered the most liberal? I've been under the impression that the southern Germany is much more conservative than the rest (just as you said), while the Greens and SPD draw most of their support from the western and Berlin. How about the Frankfurt am Main region? I'm guessing that it "belongs" to CSU / CDU?

Oberleutnant · Post by **Oberleutnant** » 2004-02-03 08:59am

Colonel Olrik wrote:Meh, nationalism is vastly overrated. It is right on top together with religion as the major cause of misery and war. We don't need it over here.

Germans are of the most pro-EU people you can get. In my three weeks here in Munich, I've had many talks about Europe from their point of view, something I wasn't used to, and the general opinion I hear is that giving out money to poorer states is very well worth it, and further political union very welcome. Unlike in France, everybody will speak english with a smile and the city is full of people from outside the E.U (I've met colombians, argentinians, croatians, etc) without signs of discontent.

Ah, how do you like it there? The winter must be slightly diferent compared to what you were used in Portugal.

Oh yeah, and the chicks are great. Blonds everywhere and that.

Meh, I'm tired of seeing blondes everywhere I go here. I'd gladly see more "South-European" types on the street!

Antares · Post by **Antares** » 2004-02-03 09:08am

Of course i have to admit, that my opinion is minted by the experience of my direct environment and the information i get about the rest of germany, which is in no case a sample for hole germany.

i doubt somebody knows every german region such that he can describe how the hole land is viewing a certain opinion.

Nathan F · Post by **Nathan F** » 2004-02-03 09:39am

Whoa now. You're saying that to say you're proud to be a German, or your proud of your German heritage, then you're labelled an ultra-right looney?

And some of our most popular songs involve pride in being an American...

Thinkmarble · Post by **Thinkmarble** » 2004-02-03 09:40am

Oberleutnant wrote: Which German region is considered the most liberal? I've been under the impression that the southern Germany is much more conservative than the rest (just as you said), while the Greens and SPD draw most of their support from the western and Berlin. How about the Frankfurt am Main region? I'm guessing that it "belongs" to CSU / CDU?

It depends

.
Generally the large cities (Munich, Berlin, Rhine-Ruhr Metroplex

) as well as northern germany is social democratic/greens territory, where as southern states, as well as the countryside, are more conservative.
The eastern states are a special case.
For one thing, party affilation is loose.
And then there is the PDS, which is the only party in germany with a stalinistic wing. The PDS is a mixture of conservative as well as progressive groups, people who long for the GDR or Stalin and people who want more democracy and civil rights for anyone. The one element holding them together is "soziale Gerechtigkeit". The tried to make inroads into western germany but they will probably stay a regional party. The get around 20 % in every election in eastern germany (they were in the parliament till 2002, when the got less then 5% of the total vote )
In eastern germany you will also find the most extremist rightwingers.
The numbers of hate crimes in eastern germany is by magnitudes larger then in western germany, eventhou ( or maybe because ) the percentage of foreigners and immigrants is lower by a magnitude.
There is also something called national liberated zone, blocks where anyone not looking like an "upright german" will get trouble till he leaves.

One also has to note that one can say without much hyperbole that the SPD has lost any election since 1998, with the exption oif the election for the parliament in 2002.

Tribun · Post by **Tribun** » 2004-02-03 09:41am

Ok, since you write so much about my nation, I think some questions should be answered to bring them out of the world. I will handle that in points:

1.

The major opposition to the war in Germany is due to the belief that there was/is absolutely NO justification for it.

That, and many other things. America's policy of war, war and more war had a very negative impact and how the politicans ion the White house had thrown stones in a glass house totally ruined thier reputation.
From the beginning on, nobody here belived that thing with WMD's or terroristic connections. It was clear from the beginning, that it was only the tactic of the noe-conservatives to gain more power for America.
In our view, the American govenment are the worst hypocrites.

2.

If you raise the german flag in your garden, you're most likely considered a right-wing nut.
Being proud of Germany is also extremely bad.
I think that's why Germany is so feverishly for the European Union, as it would allow us to leave the "German" part behind, and once again be proud of something.

Well, then you really don't know us so well.
The whole national pride thing is overrated, and for a outsider, we seem to somehow hate our nation. That's not really the case, but we tend to show our mask of non-pride to the outside world, so that they won't cry on the first instant, that we're again Nazis or something worse, only because of our pride for our nation.

3.

As for the relationship with France: It's an extremely strong one. Granted, it's still a pipe dream, but a not so small percentage is thinking about a Franco-German state, especially when the EU shouldn't move where we want it to...

Not exactly.
Ok, we show the great friedship with the Frensh to the outside and all think that we are the best f friends in the world. Reality is, that German and French have not very much im common, and tend to ignore each other, and only work together, if they could gain both something of it. They are stil Rivals, but now behind closed doors.
As for the population, we don't really like the French. They somehow seem to be arrogant, and most of us trow the language French away in school when we can. (Compare it with our realations to GB. They are MUCH better)

4.

Which German region is considered the most liberal?

The more in the North, the more liberal is becomes.

Thinkmarble · Post by **Thinkmarble** » 2004-02-03 09:52am

Nathan F wrote:Whoa now. You're saying that to say you're proud to be a German, or your proud of your German heritage, then you're labelled an ultra-right looney?

And some of our most popular songs involve pride in being an American...

National identity as well as national pride is just big fucking mess in germany.
Short version: Yes
Longer Version: No, but ..

Going by annedoctale (spelling ?) evidence most people are glad to live in germany, but noone is proud to be one.
Still, I´m an left-liberal dumbass, so take it with a grain of salt.

Oberleutnant · Post by **Oberleutnant** » 2004-02-03 10:14am

Thank for your informative reply, Thinkmarble! It's good to understand how German voters act, because after the EU enlargement their votes will have quite an impact on the lives of 450 million European citizens.

Post by **Colonel Olrik** » 2004-02-03 10:39am

Hrrrrrmmm

Tribun, Dahak is German

Post by **Colonel Olrik** » 2004-02-03 10:41am

Oberleutnant wrote:Thank for your informative reply, Thinkmarble! It's good to understand how German voters act, because after the EU enlargement their votes will have quite an impact on the lives of 450 million European citizens.

Ahah! Now I can vote for the german elections too! Want to bribe me?

Ah, how do you like it there? The winter must be slightly diferent compared to what you were used in Portugal

I've been mountainbiking in the SNOW! The elements can't stop me, I'm invincible! Puny snowstorms are no match for my coolness!

This place is great, very tidy, very civilized. Of course I miss lisbon's weather, but snow is cool too.

Dahak · Post by **Dahak** » 2004-02-03 12:01pm

Tribun wrote:2.
If you raise the german flag in your garden, you're most likely considered a right-wing nut.
Being proud of Germany is also extremely bad.
I think that's why Germany is so feverishly for the European Union, as it would allow us to leave the "German" part behind, and once again be proud of something.
Well, then you really don't know us so well.
The whole national pride thing is overrated, and for a outsider, we seem to somehow hate our nation. That's not really the case, but we tend to show our mask of non-pride to the outside world, so that they won't cry on the first instant, that we're again Nazis or something worse, only because of our pride for our nation.

Not to burst your bubble, but I happen to be German, as Colonel Olrik pointed out. I also happen to live in Stuttgart, Baden-Württemberg.

And I stand by my assessment of my nation.